Discussion about living in the Upper West Side

Negatives: few good restaurants, lack of good retail, can feel very "suburban" sometimes
Positives: proximity to 2 parks (much narrower than the UES so you're never that far from CP or RSP), feels less congested than downtown or much of UES, many pretty blocks and quiet side streets, great public transportation

Hi, Lobster. I lived on West End Ave for many years and the first thing I'm thinking of here in Brooklyn is remembering being awakened on snowy mornings by the gentle scrape scrape scrape of supers shoveling sidewalks. No such sound here. West End is lovely all the way up and down. I think it's all coops - and that's significant because the West Side comes from a heritage of committed lefty politics. There are people who take the idea of coops very seriously... and many buildings have conflicts between the new (Goldman Sachs) people who want more services and are willing to pay, and the old (musicians and teachers) people, who can't afford it, but more important, are horrified by anything that speaks of wealth or privilege. The West Side generally felt well represented by Charlie Rangel, and by Jerry Nadler before him. If you want your vote to count, you've got to vote in the Democratic primary.

Shopping on Broadway is dominated by drugstores, cellphone stores, and banks. Harry's Shoes has everything, especially if it's comfortable, and if you can't find it there, you will at Tip Top on 72nd Street. Laytner's Linens has everything for the home, and Liberty House and Rooti have strange but sometimes beautiful clothes. Bazzini's cheese is cheaper than Zabars but may not be as fresh. The best baguettes are at Silver (..or Blue??) Moon Bakery at 104th Street, unless you prefer the Tom Cat baguettes at Gourmet Garage. There's a farmers' market on Fridays at 97th between Columbus and Amsterdam most of the year.

Restaurants - we didn't eat out much. We liked Acqua, northern Italian, cozy in winter and breezy in summer. Gennaro, Sicilian, on Amsterdam. The Ayurvedic Cafe has a delicious thali meal that's a set menu each day, inexpensive (especially since they give seconds) but no liquor. Ozu for Japanese/healthfood vegetarian dishes and fish. Regional, Italian in a nice atmosphere - a bit above our price range, we went there for a glass of wine at the bar.

The Miller Theater at Columbia, Merkin Hall and Symphony Space have good music and theater sometimes, as well as quirky performances. Mannes School of Music has amazing student concerts.

my major issue with the UWS is restaurants. but as you are a couple without children, and presumably work in other neighborhoods, that shouldn't be such a big deal. as you are without children, the upper upper west is an option for you, which is quite lovely and more reasonable in price (if i recall you're looking for a 2 bedroom?). i love many of the blocks in the 86th to 110th range, far west. it's a very pleasant place to live (although cold in the winter).

Baguettes - I often pop in Soutine's (70th & Columbus) for a baguette. In the summer, I'll pick up some ham & cheese, baguette from Soutine enroute to the park. Yum.

Lofty...what a wonderful description of the uws.

"Bazzini's cheese is cheaper than Zabars but may not be as fresh."

Err, I don't think cheese is supposed to be fresh for the most part.

OK, now that I've nit-picked, let me be helpful. There are only 3 things I miss about the UWS since leaving it. First, the parks. Second, the high-end grocery, and I'm thinking Citarella specifically. Speciality foods like H&H, Barney Greengrass, ice cream shops, salumerias, bakeries, etc. I don't miss much: downtown's got a better version of any of them at a cheaper price. And Zabar's, I never understood: I always found the products mediocre. Third, proximity to friends as many of my friends live there.

The downside compared to downtown is vibrancy. In the UWS, when you want to go out for lunch/brunch/dinner/drinks or just to get out, you head downtown rather than stay in the UWS at least half the time. When you live downtown, you go to the UWS only to visit friends or the park.

inonada, i agree. but as you know, the condos downtown are friggin' expensive. the UWS has its charm.

Hi lobster:

I generally agree with nyc10023 and aboutready. I eat out (or order in) a lot due to a busy work schedule, and I am more often than not disappointed with the restaurant fare here.

On the other hand, if you cook the UWS is great - a concentration of great stores (Fairway, Zabars, Citarella, and soon a Trader Joe's) within a 10 (or so) block radius, flanked by Whole Foods on 59th & 97th streets. For last minute supplies, there's a 24-hour grocery store (West Side markets) on Broadway
between 76th & 77th.

I love the relative lack of crowds in the upper 70s and above. But as a childless person I find the neighborhood to be a little overrun with kids sometimes.

The retail is rather limited and what is here tends to be generic.

I get to see my friends on the UWS and UES on a regular basis (because they're a quick bus or taxi ride away), but living here means I rarely see friends who live in the East Village, Soho and beyond - for some reason the activation energy to get to those neighborhoods via a crowded and slow weekend subway or a slow and expensive cab ride is quite high.

Here's a thread that discusses the merits of different locations within the UWS:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/9165-if-you-could-live-anywhere-in-uws

I prefer living west of Amsterdam - Amsterdam itself is too loud and east of Amsterdam is a little too quiet and rarified. If you get out of NYC regularly west of Amsterdam has better access to a highway exit. If you live west of Broadway, though, it's pretty windy - the snow was blowing right into my eyes as I was coming back home last night. But it's a small price to pay for all the plusses of the neighborhood.

We moved up to the high West Nineties four months ago from Midtown. What seems to be lacking is good coffee stores (Fairway does not count), a decent dry cleaner, and very good high-end restaurants. (Haven't been to Picholine in 20 years, but apparently it's one of only about three fancy places to go out on the whole UWS). If you're willing to go downtown for those things (and we're still auditioning dry cleaners) quality of life is very high. It's diverse and fairly low-rise, like Chelsea was 15 years ago, more dense but with parks.

ali r.

I hesitated to post this because I don't know what your interests are, lobster - for me, the proximity to great outdoor running. I got spoiled in my early 20s when I lived next to a canal bordered by parks (and a bike path) that was about the right length for short & long runs (3mi cutoff, 6mi total). There is nothing I love more in terms of cardio than going for a run in either park - I'm about 5 mins from both.

And when it gets too cold (I used to run in 20s weather with no qualms, but I have gotten weak from living so far south), there are gyms with great classes within 5 min walk. I have belonged to NYSC, Equinox & Reebok, as well as taking classes at the local yoga places & JCC (I'm a pool member).

My QOL is heavily dependent on proximity to good outdoor running, spin classes, yoga classes, etc. so UWS works for me in that regard.

I have also used the bike path in the past to go all the way downtown & up to GW.

I just moved up to 106th between RSD and WEA. I love it! I have a great old pre-war co-op with unobstructed views of the Hudson from every window. The architecture up here is the most beautiful in the city (in my opinion) Its quiet and amazing and fairly easy to get around 1,2,3 trains are pretty good. There are some really nice restaurants up here. Negatives are: No movie theater within walking distance, not a lot of retail other than banks, drug stores and super markets ( but GREAT markets, Westside Market, Garden of Eden, and the usual Gristedes)Also, dont expect your friends to come up here alot unless they live int he neighborhood. I love the idea of being in the city but having parks and green space right outside my door. I looked for a long time and decided for the value and views this was the best option for me.

From all your descriptions of living on the UWS, it sounds much better than living on the UES as I have for many years. The fact there are two parks (Riverside and Central) is something that I "know", but really didn't think of until all of you mentioned it. The specialty food stores seem better than what is offered on the UES. I often see movies at Lincoln Center Theatres and the Loews on 68th/Broadway, but it'll be alot closer to venture to the Symphony Space and the venues at Columbia. OnTheMove, thanks for the link to the previous UWs discusion- very helpful for me.

I think it's the most livable neighborhood (from 72 to 96) in the city. The proximity to both parks (and the river!) can not be beaten.
And the beauty of West End, Riverside Drive and even Broadway. West End is one of the last, if not the last, of the major thoroughfares with no commerce, and only one short block from Broadway.
One doesn't need high end retail every day, right? Barney's co-op is enough for emergencies...
And the things that are indeed needed daily are here: superior supermarkets, services and friendly places to have a bite.

There's also the cost issue. If you like to be close to CP on the UES, from Bway to CPW is approx. the same distance as from Park to 5th (narrower and wider in parts). Setting aside the prewar condo issue, you cannot buy the same amount of space on the UES compared to the UWS given the same net worth. I say net worth, because the co-ops west of Park and on Park may have lower selling prices/sqft but have much stricter liquidity requirements.

So to be as close as I am to CP on the UES, you can't get the same space for the same $. There are exceptions of course, but not many.

nyc123 — exactly, and also you just get plainly more for your $ than on the UES. Real pre-wars are real walls and floors and ceilings.
And the co-ops on Park: maintenance is sickening.

nyc123 — exactly, and also you just get plainly more for your $ than on the UES. Real pre-wars are real walls and floors and ceilings.
And the co-ops on Park: maintenance is sickening.

sorry for the double: something was wrong for a few minutes.

I enjoy going down to the river in the summer to the boat basin or pier I, ordering a corona and watching the sunset. Try that on the east side.

Front porch there are many good dry cleaners I live in the seventies there is a great one on colombus and 73 but that may be too far for u

I've lived on the UWS for a few years and I disagree about some of the downsides.

Restaurants / Food
High end - Dovetail, 81, Bar Boloud, Cesca, Picholine, Gari, and if you count it, Masa, Per Se, Jean Georges in Time Warner to name a few
Every day - Fatty Crab, Rosa Mexicano, Calle Ocho, Pomodoro, Levain Bakery, Screme Gelato, Shake Shack, Jacques Torres, Pinkberry, Grom, Beard Papa, Barney Greengrass, Big Nick's, Swagat, Cafe Ronda, Momoya, Ducale, Vai, etc.
Grocery - Zabars, Fairway, soon to come Trader Joes, and the usual bounty of Food Emporium/CVS/Duane Reades, etc.

Going out
No rambunctious night life, but Barcibo, Shalel, Riposo 72, Empire Hotel rooftop, Stone Rose, Dive 75, McAleers, Fred's, Amsterdam Ale House, etc. Plus nightlife in the form of an IMAX theater, Lincoln Center, and in good weather Pier 1 and the Boat Basin.

Retail
A couple Barnes and Nobles, the new Apple Store, Theory, Barney's Coop, Loehmann's, Pottery Barn, Raymour and Flanigan, west elm, Best Buy, Tourneau, Thomas Pink, Hugo Boss, etc. -- a bit generic but so is the rest of the city aside from the West Village

Add in good subway lines (1,2,3 -- the A, B are terrible), the parks, the architecture, and the gyms (Reebok is arguably the best in town), schools if that matters to you, and a number of things I'm forgetting, and you get the top neighborhood (arguably, West Village is up there as well) in Manhattan. Nowhere else I'd rather live!

in addition to what everyone else has said, it's also very dog-friendly. if i recall, this is important to you, right lobster? (or maybe i'm confusing you w/ another poster).

i'm trying to remember why we decided to settle here (before the kids). i think we just liked the overall vibe of the neighborhood. Unpretentious (IMO compared to, let's say, prime UES), neighborhoody-feel (charm of all the low-rise brownstone blocks), groceries - check, parks/greenery/nature - double check! yeah, i can't really add anything that hasn't already been said :).

and *sigh* when hubby and i used to go out (on dates!!) we would often head downtown to eat. but there are some decent restaurants here as well. there are just more elsewhere.

As a second question, starting from West 60th Street and going until West 110th Street and including all the avenues (CPW, Columbus, Amsterdam, West End Avenue and Riverside Drive and excluding Broadway as too congested), is there any block or blocks that you wouldn't live on? In my own case, I would never live right near Levain Bakery on West 74th Street because the smells from the shop are too tempting.

NO to Columbus and Amsterdam above 96. Especially Columbus.

stakan, if you're comfortable sharing this, what is the reason?

lobster, the reasons are:
1. no services, except bodegas and shady hardware shops and A LOT of hair salons; good businesses are forced out by local "activists" as a threat to those establishments; I see no end to this situation;
2. almost no market-rate rentals, mostly only city-owned stock, and it shows;
3. massive projects (Frederick Douglas Houses) from the 100th to 104th, from Amsterdam through Columbus;
4. Columbus from the 100th all the way to Columbia is mostly closed shops and open drug trade on every corner 24/7.

personally,

1. 60s west of Amsterdam -- not much retail, some really just ugly buildings (Lincoln Towers), far from public transport.

2. Above 85th on CPW/Columbus/Amsterdam -- just not as neighborhood-like...but great deals are available.

3. Any apartment that's on the 2nd or 3rd floor above a restaurant/bar -- even in nice buildings, I've heard of mice infestations. I used to live in a 3rd floor walk up and briefly had mice, but apparently, one level below they were multiple mice in the apts at any given time. Exception, I'm sure but still.

I think the best of the UWS is anyhwere from 66th - 85th b/w Amsterdam/Bway and CPW. Further west can be too far from public transport, windier, and quieter -- some people love this, just not for me.

Oh yeah, and further south is a bit more midtownish and further north, less good stuff to see and do.

More thoughts on the neighborhood

http://nychousewhisperer.blogspot.com/2009/12/morningside-heights.html

http://nychousewhisperer.blogspot.com/2009/02/manhattan-valley.html

2 blocks is too far to the transportation? Really?

lobster, I hope that was helpful.
I'd say 72 to 110 but ONLY WEA, RSD and Broadway. Pretty wide swath.

as I said stakan, my opinion only. And the answer is yes, walking from Riverside to Broadway takes about 10 minutes. Wow, people on this site are combative. So what then, 71st is too far south? Makes a lot of sense.

lobster, have to add:
there was hope that 455 CPW would stabilize the neighborhood but it didn't take. The block between 105 and 106 on Columbus is plain scary. Above 106 - forget it.

Curious, 71st is where Riverside Drive becomes Riverside Boulevard, Amsterdam becomes 9th Avenue, and the blocks behind Lincoln Center... West End there is horrendous, and yes, in that area, it is 10 or more minutes to the subway. Anywhere else (above) it's more like 4 minutes from Riverside to Broadway.

And stakan, what's your upper boundry. 96th as you say in one post? 110th in another? Or is it 106th in your most recent. And of course, only WEA, RSD, and Bway. Because no one would prefer Central Park West to RSD, got it.

Thanks stakan and CuriousabtRE for your helpful opinions about the UWS. I very much appreciate hearing from people who live and have lived in this neighborhood since you really know what it's like to live there as opposed to having dinner and walking around the neighborhood. Hope that you both have a nice evening.

Last I checked, Amsterdam becomes TENTH avenue at 59th Street.

Curious, it depends on the avenue. As in my posts:
west of Broadway - 110
east of Broadway - 96. Except CPW which is good to 106.

Curious, I used to live in that area. Everyone was hoping for improvements year after year but it just didn't happen. Mostly (very) local politics to blame. It's too bad because it's a beautiful area, and both parks in there are magnificent.

Lobster, you're very welcome. Good luck in your search! Though I do recommend having a walk around and see which areas work best for you at some point. When I first moved to the area, I was targeting the 80s and 90s and while they are fine, it just wasn't the right fit for me.

Curious, let's not pick a fight. Lobster asked me a question, and I answered to the best of my experience and knowledge. Sorry for the 9th/10th avenue mistake.

Agreed; As a note, I try my best never to insult someone else's posts as we're all entitled to our opinions -- if you look at my limited history on this site you'll see that. I just took offense to your pointing to my post and looking down at my opinion on what my -- as stated personal -- criteria were.

Peace. Good night.

I agree with Curious about west 60s, especially low 60s (have run and cycled there often on way to Riverside Park). You're ok on or east or amsterdam. West of Amsterdam, not only are you far from public transport, but it just "feels" really far, which matters a lot. Also, there is a massive swath of projectes from Amsterdam to West End, I think 61st to 64th or something like that.

I've lived on the UWS for the better part of 25 yrs. Despite living elsewhere in the city, and occasionally considering other neighborhoods, I always come back to a few basic facts: there is nowhere else in the city that combines all the conveniences and bustle of the city with the amenities of the suburbs (lots of green space). In addition my wife and I love to go to Lincoln Center for concerts, opera, ballet etc. The UWS may not have the best restaurants in the city (although at this point would have to say it beats the UES), the most interesting nightlife, or the most buzz. But it has the best balance of all of those things, combined with sophistication and beautiful outdoor space. And in all these years I've never found a real close contender.

That's too funny, not wanting to live above 96th st. It's very scary when you get up near Columbia they're basically just handing out free drugs as you walk down the street.
All we have up here is bodegas and hairdressers, the sole exceptions being Grant's Tomb and Tom's Restaurant.

MMarquez, I choose West 110th Street as my cutoff point for two reasons: 1) the length of the commute to midtown and 2) my brother attended graduate school at Columbia and lived right near the school and I remember that the neighborhood was very young, too young for me and my husband. What do you think of living between West 110th Street and Columbia University campus, if you're familiar with this neighborhood?

Hi Lobster, my ranting was not directed at you but rather someone else

We live btw 110th and Columbia in an area that is very young, and my wife and I both have developed a large aversion to undergraduates. We are in CU housing, so our situation is that we're surrounded by dorms and frats which is needless to say, loud and unfortunate but our rent is very cheap. But I do not believe that all of the streets in this area are like that, we are just situated very close to campus. 11th and 112th seem quiet, but 113th and 114th not so much (I'm talking about btw Bdway and Amsterdam here).

We avoid the area immediately near Columbia, between 112th and 120th. Mostly everything in that vicinity is overpriced and mediocre, including supermarket and restaurants. But there are some standouts: Tom's Restaurant, V&Ts Pizzeria, Symposium, Samad's, as well as others. There are restaurants that have been here for years that are frequented by families that live in the area and have a real neighborhood feel.

If I could buy here, ideally I would try for somewhere between 96th and 110th, but we could never afford it, so we don't even look. Morningside Heights is pretty eclectic, due to the balance of existing residents and the transient student population which is nice. I couldn't say enough good things about the area. If you walk south along bdway or amsterdam there are so many different restaurants, stores, bars, etc. that you could visit. As other people have mentioned, it is also a plus being close to Lincoln Center, Riverside Park, and Central Park. And you're not all that far from Times Square or Penn Station either.

I would say the area is very safe overall. We've walked down Amsterdam ave hundreds of times, often very late at night, and no one has bothered us, even right in front of the public housing. I pretty much look like the young college student who would be a ripe target for being intimidated. I don't find myself on Columbus ave as much because there is not too much there that we frequent, but have never been hassled before.

There are some gorgeous buildings on 110th btw bdway and amsterdam, especially the one with all of the gargoyles on the north side. Maybe you could check those out. Also there was a new luxury rental built on land owned by St. John the Divine at 110th and Morningside drive which looks very nice. Avalon I think it is called

Honestly, if we could afford it, we would not hesitate at all about settling down very close to here for the long-term. If you need to commute to midtown, try to live within walking distance to the 2/3 and you could be at time square/PennStation within 15-25minutes during rush hour.

Let me know if you have any other questions about the area.

MMarquez, I realized that your comments were directed at someone else, but I was curious about your thoughts about living near Columbia. I recall from another discussion that you mentioned that you were a graduate student there and I thought that you might be familiar with the neighborhood. As you can tell by my posting at such a late hour, I'm having problems sleeping tonight so I'm going to sign off and hopefully get some sleep.

On a related note, I am not that familiar with UWS either but it looks like I will be moving there soon.
Anything to be wary of on West 89th between CPW and Columbus? All I see on the map is a beautiful brownstone lined street. I like the quiet so anything near Amsterdam or Broadway is not appealing. I see alot of love for the mid- upper 70's here, but what about the upper 80's near Columbus-CPW. Thanks

The Park Blocks from 86-96 are wonderful Brownstone Blocks which have increasing numbers of single family homes. Same with the Riverside Drive blocks for that matter, which I prefer slightly because of their proximity to Broadway, but they are still quiet and lovely.

bluedahlia - Whenever I walk down any of those cross streets in that area, I am always struck by how nice and quiet they are. And lined with trees. I'm sure it would be a good area to live in. The main drawback would be that you are pretty far from any subway lines other than the B C.

Thanks for the feedback nshipley & mmarquez110

Lobster, are you tied to uptown? Unless park proximity or relative closeness (as in closeness to a relative such as aging parent) is critical, perhaps you should look at the Gramercy Park area? Its really lovely, low key convenient to both East and West midtown (Broadway and Lex lines express at Union Square) for work and any place in Manhattan for play. Plus there are great restaurants right here! While Gramercy Park itself is expensive, the neighborhood offers a diversity of housing options which is reflected in the population. (Although I suspect as the seniors "leave" they are replaced primarily with higher earning professionals primarily white and Asian). I love it here.

Thanks Liz. I have my hair cut on East 22nd Street and always stop in at 71 Irving for coffee on the way so I know Gramercy Park area a little. Looking at the brownstones surrounding Gramercy Park is always a treat. My husband works in Midtown East so it's the same commute for him either way. It's a good suggestion. I started looking in the UES because that's where we've lived for 17 years and I know the neighborhood very well. As you can tell by my SE posts which are all over the place, I'm still trying to figure this all out. I'm going to take a break from the apartment search until the first week in January and think this through a little better than I have. I hope that you enjoy the holidays and best wishes to you and your mother for the New Year. Michelle

Happy holidays to you too! I know looking for a new place can be very daunting. I must have seen over 100. I had a wide range of neighborhoods I would consider, transport convenience was my first priority and I didn't want to pay to live somewhere "cool". Originally I thought I would end up in Hell's Kitchen since I love that area, especially the 50s west of 9th Ave but nothing I saw there appealed to me. I saw this place just before Thanksgiving in 2007 and it was a strong #2 on my list, thankfully #1, which was on 28th and Park fell through, but when I checked back on this place it was shown as "No Longer Available". Devestated my broker called the selling broker and found out she put it on unavailable because she would be away for the holidays and couldn't show it. January 5 she was back and there I was, end of story and I found the perfect place for me and the cats. (Assuming I get a job to pay the mortgage and maintenance pretty soon) Not just the perfect apartment physically but the perfect neighborhood and a building with the right "vibe" for me (full service but the doormen call us by first names and building staff and tenants mingle together at the holiday party). The same thing will happen to you no doubt. Let me know if you want to do some Gramercy exploring, I'd be happy to accompany you.
Btw, I know I speak of her alot before she was a very heavy influence on my writing and just about every other aspect of my life but my mother passed away in 2007. Another reason I'm glad to say goodbye to this decade even technically the end isn't until next year.

All the best!!!! Enjoy the Holidays!!! liz

It's a bit of an exaggeration to call the blocks behind Lincoln Center "horrendous". Those postwar towers may be ugly from the outside, but go to an open house there someday: they're really nice inside, with big rooms, terraces, and unobstructed sunlight at every window. And the Trump buildings seem to be bringing in more retail, including a huge Jubilee grocery store.

Liz, I am so sorry to hear about your mother. It sounds like you and her had a warm and supportive relationship and I'm sure that you miss her every day. I do the same thing that you do. My father passed away in 2008 and I find myself mentioning him either in writing or in conversation.
If you have some free time, we could meet for coffee/tea/hot chocolate one weekday afternoon and then take a walk around Gramercy Park. You can show me where all the young, hip people like yourself go for fun and then I can walk by those places and think to myself that's where the young, hip people go. Why don't you send me an email at streeteasy.michelle@gmail.com after January 1 and we'll set the place and time.

I would love to meet you for coffee after the New Year but alas I don't know much about where the young, hip people go...having fallen out of that classification sometime around the turn of the century. I can however, show you the really good places that deliver dinner to the overtired middle aged.