If manhattan condos sell for 700-900 psqft, where does that put williamsburg?

300-500 easily.

That puts W'Burg in 1000-1200 PSQFT range.

the "IF" is an important point - i have yet to see 700psqft condos - most of what i've seen has been in the 900-1200 range; SOME coops have gone down to as much as 750-850, but not condos ... where have you encountered this pricing?
now, if you're asking "what impact would 700-900 psqft condos have on w'burg pricing?", that's a different story - then i'd agree with the 300-500 range

i think the price choppers thread shows coops going as low as 500-600 psqft. not sure about condo's.

I don't really know where you guys find 500 psqft in Manhattan. And if you do, they must be in a war zone and underground.

Here's $550 psqft and if you consider this a war zone you don't belong in NYC. I forget who posted this in a thread or I'd give credit. Noah from UD got this one done. I see lots of $500 range psqft that are pretty decent too. If you don't you must not be looking very hard or very prudish.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/384328-coop-152-east-94th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york

That apartment needs a lot of work, according to its own thread.

Here's a CPW alcove-studio condo that just closed at $815 psf: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/429567-condo-392-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

You'd have to put a few bucks into the kitchen and bath to get all the allure of a new Williamsburg condo, or wait ten years until they're equally old-looking.

Many apartments need "a lot of work". What is your point, zinka?

The price of real estate -- in any relatively unrestrained market -- varies indirectly with the cost and availability of debt.

The cheaper debt gets, the more expensive real estate gets, and vice versa.

This you can count on to play out, unless outside forces intervene to prevent the market from working the way it should.

So now, when debt is much less available and somewhat more expensive to get than it was at the peak, you can expect prices in all submarkets to fall below the levels they hit at the peak of the debt bubble.

They're not there yet. But they will get there -- unless the city comes along and buys up a bunch of unsaleable condos to use as affordable housing....or some other cockamamie scheme.

With Williamsburg, which was only recently gentrified, you have the complicating factor of no real track record ....ie, in the not so distant past, most people wouldn't consider living in such districts as Billyburg or the Gowanus area, but now there is a lot of new housing there and people and amenities have moved in.

So within those submarkets, you have a new higher level of demand to complicate your pricing predictions.

I think you can look at long-established nabes, like say Park Slope, look at what the per sf pricing was there early in the debt bubble, and use that as a kind of rough bottom predictor of where prices will go.

I'm not saying W'burg is comparable to the Slope -- I don't know, the Slope is a big area and parts of it probably would make a decent comp. But that's the art of it -- I'll leave that to you.

You can absolutely count on prices fallng below the frothiest period of the debt bubble, which started around 2005. Once you go farther back than that you'll get lots of different opinions on where the bottom will be -- 2000? 2004? There was a big difference in prices between those two years.

But the closings that are happening now in Bklyn, which are largely at 2008 levels, are really bad deals, if you ask me.

Midtown 2/1 condo at $747 psf: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/461586-condo-57-west-58-street-midtown-new-york

Imperfect, as is everything, but there're lots of these.

2/2, west of Park Ave. at $754 psf: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/405135-condo-65-east-96th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york

$175 per square foot.

things sell when a deal is made and everyone's preferences for location, actual type of apartment, convenience to work, friends, going out, whatever is not the same for all. so the question can't be answered in general sweeping statements. a purchase is not just some financial negotiation - it's emotional.

in WB, it's cheaper to buy stuff here, go out, and park your car for instance, so there's ongoing costs to consider. i've lived all over, and in manhattan you are paying a premium for everything.

also, because my family wanted a big (got 2000 sq feet) apt with a backyard, i can't imagine that the same would cost the same in manhattan, and anyway, we would never again live in Manhattan. it's not our lifestyle to live on the upper east side or midtown. there's a preference for many to live in WB that's simply not about money. i wouldn't live in park slope again either (tried it - too far, and no thanks on the vibe).

for my younger friends in their 20's, they are beg borrowing, whatever! to be in WB because that's where their friends and their music and their life is.

for eating out even, WB kills over midtown or the upper eastside. something like 8 WB restaurants made the michelin international cheap eats list, plus there's 2 restaurants with michelin stars. WB is a foodie heaven. on amazing joint after another and the prices are terrific.

there's also 3 5 star schools in district 14 (north WB/greenpoint) - 132, 31, and 34. there's tons of available space in the prek's and a new charter, a new montessori, and a new elementary private school.

of course, the commute is killer - i work in Soho, husband in midtown - by subway for either is 20 minutes and i can get home in a cab in 12 minutes. so easy.

every time we meet another WB family, we just kinda go, it's so great here, right? had neighbors over today for christmas, had neighbors over for thanksgiving. it's a friendly, real community. no way i get that in midtown. no way.

we are in the very long haul, our intention is to raise our family here and have no interest in ever moving, so i don't particularly care about today's psf although it's fun to be on the side lines.

LOL @ NYCMATT "$175 per square foot".

look at District- 111 Fulton or 15 Broad street- Stark's building in FiDi.. selling around 700 on large lofts

definitely seveal units trading in the 700's in Fidi and Tribecca.sorry bulls but the ongoing deflation of Manhattan condo's is a reality

today $250/sqft in Billyburg would be a gift for the more modest places.
$350-400 if we got a view and a bell or whistle or two.
(earings/tattoos/body-oder not included)

falco..you would seriously put NSP at 400 psqft?

Falco -- don't you think people buying in high-amenity buildings deserve colonic therapy rooms?

and when do you see these new prices levels kicking in in billyburg?

> That puts W'Burg in 1000-1200 PSQFT range.

lol

$300-400 sounds about right. Shouldn't be more than half.

i think you should paint with a broader brush. gee let's look at a few factors that may influence the answer of psf?

1) size of the apt. comparing a 1500sf apt to a 600sf apt is fruitless.
2) comparing an apt with maintenance of 1500$ a month to one at 500$ a month is incomplete analysis.
3) comparing northwest bburg(north of metropolitan west of the bqe) to an area in far east bburg 15mins walk to the train is....uninformed
4) not even taking into account the variation in price within manhattan?....i guess that's priceless

somewhereelse,

Happy Holidays.

you, too...

moxieland, you're right - there are too many factors to paint such a broad picture - but size isn't one of them really, as ppsf is supposed to account for that. But common charges, taxes, outdoor space, amenities, and location within Williamsburg (which is quite large), will all impact pricing. There are some absurd responses here, which are impossible to take seriously without any analysis or backup whatsoever. New development around the Bedford stop priced around $600 has done quite well in the past 6-8 months, and while I think we'll see lower prices in certain developments, the fact that those are selling should give you an indication as to how likely something like $300 or $175 really is, barring another Lehman-like event.

In terms of common charges, that would seem to me more of a preference issue. If you pay 50cents/month psf you will get little in the way of ammenities- no doorman, no gym etc, if you pay $1 psf you will get more. Granted the current preference given the economic environment is to be minimalistic.

what range do you think the ppsf in east vil/ alphabet city is in?

i find the common charges to be more of a "what can i afford" issue. as i have searched for awhile with a monthly cost number i don't want to exceed. so i can look at one place lets say at 400k with common charges of 800$ a month or a place for 475k with common charges of 400$ a month.

glamma, I'm not sure what it is now, but when I was actively looking, it was routinely $250+ psf more than where I was looking in Williamsburg. This is comparing new construction (WB) to older co-op or condo resales, so it's not totally apples-apples either. But I found the premium to be too much for my taste, especially considering the distances to trains as you get into Alphabet City.

right, i don't think you can compare cc's in a new condo to old co-op. in a co-op you may be paying a significant amount to the bldgs mtg.

"in WB, it's cheaper to buy stuff here, go out, and park your car for instance, so there's ongoing costs to consider. i've lived all over, and in manhattan you are paying a premium for everything. "

Of course, if you can afford to move to manhattan, you won't need a car as much as you would in Brooklyn... so thats actually a savings.

Plus, all the extra haircuts and ironic t-shirts you need to buy in WB... whatever you need to rationalize your outer-borough spending.

Its also cheaper to live in Kansas, but you're going to have a hard time convincing...

"Of course, if you can afford to move to manhattan, you won't need a car as much as you would in Brooklyn... so thats actually a savings."

You definitely do not need a car in Williamsburg. It's a luxury, just as it would be in Manhattan, except it's far more pleasant to drive in Brooklyn, given the traffic and parking situations. This has nothing to do with affordability, really.

"Plus, all the extra haircuts and ironic t-shirts you need to buy in WB... whatever you need to rationalize your outer-borough spending."

Where are you getting your info? Curbed? Wikipedia? You've clearly bought into the dumb-media stereotypes but don't seem to have bothered actually going to the neighborhood. Funny stuff.

thanks bjw

Come on, guys, for $400, you are putting the condo price inline with the co-ops in Jackson Heights and Forest Hills. If it hits $500, then you can get a decent 2br from $400K - $500K. A lot of people in the city will pay that off in 3 years easily.

nick, to be fair, who's to say Jackson Heights and Forest Hills don't take further tumbles? They're not isolated.

I disagree with the notion that all of those who live in bklyn would move to manhattan if they could afford it.
Slightly off the subject, why is it that dog owners in wmburg do not clean up their dog shit, the streets are littered with feces.

kiz your assumption is correct. i have lived in manhattan for over 20yrs and am choosing to move to bburg. this decision is not simply what i can afford but what i prefer

"Come on, guys, for $400, you are putting the condo price inline with the co-ops in Jackson Heights and Forest Hills. If it hits $500, then you can get a decent 2br from $400K - $500K. A lot of people in the city will pay that off in 3 years easily.

If you live near the LIRR in forest hills, you're at penn station in 15 minutes. Its one of the nicest neighborhoods in the city in terms of greeniness and nice housing stock (not the co-ops, talking the mini-mansions, though even the row houses are nice).

As someone who has spent considerable time in both, if you leave out the hipster moron part, its not inconceivable that the WB/FH pricing gap shouldn't be that significant. If I recall, about 5 years ago the most expensive outer borough new tower was the one in Forest Hills. If it wasn't the most expensive, it was up there...

moxieland, I am also thinking to move to bburg sometime in the future. But the price is not in my range yet. Does it have good schools in N. burg?

nope. check the schools reports. Not the letter grades, those are based on subjective things like "improvement". Check out the actual performance numbers, which are included... like percentages of kids that pass math or english proficiency. Even for some of the "better" schools, more than half did not...

> I disagree with the notion that all of those who live in bklyn would move to manhattan if they could afford it

not all, just most. many of the same folks who have claimed they "prefer" when asked end up noting more space for the money, etc. as factors... turning it back into, well, an affordability issue again.

looking at folks making compromise decisions doesn't show preference, only what their compromise values are. To get true preferences, you remove $$$ from the equation. And most folks who have simply don't choose Brooklyn.

"nope. check the schools reports. Not the letter grades, those are based on subjective things like "improvement"."

Here we go again - this is not true. There are quantifiable metrics, and it doesn't just look at improvement. Nonetheless, you're discounting schools that receive all As, are clearly better than they were 5-10 years ago, and constantly improving.

nick, there are some good Williamsburg schools (see wisco's post above). They're obviously not the best in the city, but to say they're uniformly not good, especially when one neither has children, nor lives in the neighborhood, is suspect at best (and just plain reeks of a know-it-all attitude, frankly). If you're really interested in the area and have kids, go to the schools, talk to other parents, and read some of the chatter on brooklynbabyhui. Much more informative than somewhereelse's nonsense.

wow, the pimple is freaking out and spewing puss.

oh, poor little pimple, nothing better to do.

somewhereelse, looks like you're the one freaking out. Lashing out and calling names won't make you any less wrong. Get over it.

poor little pimple.

somewhereelse, this may help your awful condition: http://bit.ly/7t1EJk

ouch, the pimple pops up every time I post, within seconds.

poor pimple.

"ouch, the pimple pops up every time I post, within seconds."

Trolls are often unaware of their hypocrisy. You should have that looked at as well.

poor pimple.

lets see i've lived in manhattan for 20yrs in chelsea,gramercy park,upper east side,columbus circle and now the upper west side. its simple I know what I prefer..notice the use of the pronoun I..as for schools i'm afraid as a married man w/ no kids i have no info as its not an important variable for me (except that it of course attracts or detracts potential buyers in the future)

moxie, I didn't disagree with you... hell, I wasn't even responding to your post. The pronoun "I" fits in perfectly with my use of the phrase "not all".

the post was more about the concept of preference, which has been misused here in the past... folks have confused absolute preference with preference for the cost....

btw, interesting that you've never lived below 20th or so... all of New York City used to fit in an area way smaller than that.

(and conversely, I've been told by many friends "I'd never live above 14th street").

somewhereelse--why so angry?

sorry, please disregard above, i really don't care.

i lived on 16th and 3rd (stretched gramercy boundaries) and crashed for a summer on b and 10th while still in college(wasnt my place so didnt count it)...when you make that assessment "most people" you are kind of inviting everyone into the conversation right?...i find that arguements usually begin when anyone tries to speak in absolutes(just my 2 cents)

I'm actually pretty happy today... except for the pimple. Thanks for asking.

I feel pretty blessed, almost every day, that I get to live in Manhattan in an apartment I absolutely love, and don't have to pay an arm and a leg for it.

I think you're just having a hard time reading demeanor... looks like you have two others much groggier here...

Considering buying in Williamsburg is like considering trading volatile and relatively illiquid emerging markets securities, a lot more exciting, but not for the faint of heart. Sophisticated investors stay away from it due to high multiples and loss of growth, but degenerate traders like me are fascinated by it.

600 psf seems to be the market for now but is clearing at low volume. A couple of hedge funds have placed limit sell orders on huge block trades, like the Edge, NSP, 80 Met, etc... There are other smaller funds that are quietly waiting in the sidelines for an opportunity to unwind their positions as well (Warehouse 11, Steelwork Lofts, Urban Green, etc...). So the near-term upside seems capped, and there may be more attractive entry points. There's also risk that some funds blow up and have to mass liquidate since they are heavily leveraged.

That said, it's a rapidly changing neighborhood and seems to be an interesting place to live. Maybe for those who are buy and hold for the long term, it may make sense. For others, renting is another way to go.

Regardless, this will be an interesting year for WB. Its headlines always seem much more interesting than domestic equities.

> when you make that assessment "most people" you are kind of inviting everyone into the conversation right?...

Its not up to me to decide who can post and who can't. Its a free country, and a relatively free message board.

So, of course you can post. But stating your preference 3x doesn't really advance the argument at all. You're in the "not" side. Got it. Got it 3 posts ago. I said, pretty black and white, "not all", although you might have missed that.

> i find that arguements usually begin when anyone tries to speak in absolutes(just my 2 cents)

I don't disagree... but not sure why you're throwing that at me... as the person who said "not all". I'm absolutely not speaking in absolute terms.

I've said that a couple times, and noted that you aren't in that category, but you do seem to keep coming at me for it. Not sure where the anger is coming from.

freewilly, unfortunately for me I only comprehended about 10% of what you said, for the less sophisticated could you kindly explain:

"A couple of hedge funds have placed limit sell orders on huge block trades, like the Edge, NSP, 80 Met, etc... There are other smaller funds that are quietly waiting in the sidelines for an opportunity to unwind their positions as well (Warehouse 11, Steelwork Lofts, Urban Green, etc...)."

thanks

"i lived on 16th and 3rd (stretched gramercy boundaries) and crashed for a summer on b and 10th while still in college(wasnt my place so didnt count it)..."

gocha.

Interestingly enough, I'm one of those guys who said "never... about 14th street". Although I said it with 23rd, I think... ;-) I was, of course, wrong. And I've still spent more years living in Brooklyn than Manhattan, but that will change in a couple years.

freewilly, spoken like a real trader! If I had the heart of a gambler (and a lot more money), I'd probably quit my day job, start running the numbers, and bide my time/pick the right spots to invest in. I agree there will be some developers who will have no choice but to unload. Those are probably not the buildings I'd want to live in myself, but as investments, they might make a hell of a lot of sense at that point. Rents in the area are still surprisingly high, though there is a lot of rental inventory on the way as well.

"I think you're just having a hard time reading demeanor... looks like you have two others much groggier here..."

Pot, this is kettle; kettle, pot.

"There are other smaller funds that are quietly waiting in the sidelines for an opportunity to unwind their positions as well (Warehouse 11, Steelwork Lofts, Urban Green, etc...). "

Crain's did a piece noting that the credit needed to refinance the commercial RE loans coming due in the next 3-5 years is only half what it needs to be. So, many of the quiet and patient might get a huge squeeze.

So, if you're looking to pick them up cheap... quietly waiting might work.

I think he's comparing NSP to a massive hedge fund which needs to lightne up its positions soon , or may just blow up

all fair somewhere..except no anger here that i can promise you..just enjoy engaging banter

cool, i take that back (the anger thing)

and I enjoy your banter as well..

i also spent a summer in college living with a college buddy in his family house on ave J. that is the only time i have lived in brooklyn so i am not equipped to truly compare..although difara was jsut up the street (the only good thing i found in flatbush)

i think that there has been a shift among the young toward brooklyn. it's become a cultural thing. many would still prefer manhattan, or may think that they would sometime in the future, but i'd bet that a good percentage who wind up there will stay, despite an ability sometime in the future to transplant to manhattan. of course you still have many that will live in manhattan no matter what the relative cost, but it will be interesting to see what happens if and when the prices in williamsburg lead the way down.

despite the recent price corrections, it is still very difficult for the vast majority of young people (and many older as well) to save enough for their "forever" (or at least next 7-10 years apartment). many people would be better off skipping the "starter" manhattan apartment under the current circumstances, focusing instead on something that will be suitable in the future as well.

"i also spent a summer in college living with a college buddy in his family house on ave J. that is the only time i have lived in brooklyn so i am not equipped to truly compare..although difara was jsut up the street (the only good thing i found in flatbush)"

ha, my old territory.

That being said.... "so i am not equipped to truly compare". So, I'll absolutely give you that folks who don't really know Brooklyn might prefer it over Manhattan. ;-)

There is actually some truth to it. I was happy to leave Brooklyn the first time, never thought I'd come back. I got sold a bill of goods, and while Brooklyn has DEFINITELY improved, I bought the hype, went back.... and just confirmed my original preference. Not saying there aren't some cool things about Brooklyn, but some of it is hype, and many of the disadvantages are glossed over.

I can't tell you how many people were blown away over the past few years that I didn't love my (Brooklyn) neighborhood - all but one were Manhattanites were basing it off what they heard and tourist visits. I had 2 friends that wanted to move. When I talked them through the actuals, they were very surprised.

well, to wrap that up, of course there are some cool things about Brooklyn, and people are going to have specific preferences, but I have found that the realities of Brooklyn are often VERY different from the perception. Some negatively, some positively - I've also found folks who "had to" move but then found new things to love - but it still surprised me how off the perception is from the actual.

"i think that there has been a shift among the young toward brooklyn. it's become a cultural thing."

well, culture does often follow commerce... and vice versa.

"many would still prefer manhattan, or may think that they would sometime in the future, but i'd bet that a good percentage who wind up there will stay, despite an ability sometime in the future to transplant to manhattan."

though I've seen that once you have kids, its VERY tough to move back in. I know quite a few folks who did it for temporary reasons, but then the effective cost of Manhattan explodes when you need the extra space and other stuff for kids.

"of course you still have many that will live in manhattan no matter what the relative cost, but it will be interesting to see what happens if and when the prices in williamsburg lead the way down."

Of course, if WB leads the way down, we'll have less "clarity". Only if there was little/no price gap that we'd be able to see true preference. If WB is much cheaper, then it will be tough to distinguish between actual preference, and just price pressure.

> although difara was jsut up the street (the only good thing i found in flatbush)

Difara is one of the few hypes that lives up to the name, and even still (often hype stuff was awesome, but heisenberg uncertainty principle...).

The guy kept it awesome by still making just 2 pizzas an hour. of course, its a royal pain in the ass. But my, my, is it awesome.

Though, as I've said before, I grew up nearby but didn't have the "focus" the city seems to have now on specific pizzza places. They all seemed to be pretty great then, you just went for the good one closest to you. Travelling for pizza is definitely an import of the tourists...

but price should affect preference. because price determines what one gets for a given amount. many would PREFER to live on Park (not me) but it simply won't happen. and many have been making the unwise decision to shoehorn themselves and often subsequently families into very tiny spaces. that may seem like a preference if WB prices are not that divergent from manhattan, but if they are divergent of course price should be a factor.

yeah the beauty of difara in 1986 was it was a neighborhood joint...and your right the only reason it lives up to the hype is dominic is still there everyday churning out the pies..also in case any of you don't know the square slice is the true piece de resistance

aboutready, great post. As someone who made the move from Manhattan to Williamsburg, I sometimes find myself thinking about raising teenage kids in a large pre-war on the UWS, but I'm not sure it'll amount to much more than daydreaming in the end. The reality, for me, is that I like what Williamsburg is now, but am also quite happy with what's planned for the next 10-15 years (at least as much as we can tell right now). I loved my time on the UWS (and Nolita, but quite different), but am far less sure of how I'll feel about it 10-15 from now.

Your point on eschewing the "starter apartment" (I hate that term) route is great as well. I can't speak for everyone, but I can't think of too many scenarios where that really makes sense, unless you plan on being a permanent bachelor/ette (not that there's anything wrong with that!).

> but price should affect preference. because price determines what one gets for a given amount.

Actually, it shouldn't. You prefer what you prefer. Whether its worth the money is a different discussion.
What you buy ends up being a compromise. But it doesn't change what you prefer...

> many would PREFER to live on Park (not me) but it simply won't happen.

Absolutely. But that people choose to not go without food to do so doesn't mean they DON'T prefer it anymore, it just means it isn't worth paying for their preference.

What you prefer is what you prefer, whether you are willing to pay for it or not - whether an apartment or a maid or a doorman - doesn't chance the preferences.

"and many have been making the unwise decision to shoehorn themselves and often subsequently families into very tiny spaces."

It means they prefer park avenue over space. But, they certainly don't PREFER the tiny space. They just choose not to pay for their preference, a larger space (but prefer to pay for park ave).

"yeah the beauty of difara in 1986 was it was a neighborhood joint...a"

exactly. unfortunately, most of the other neighborhood joints seem to have died. I loved just going wherever was close and getting great pizza.

"and your right the only reason it lives up to the hype is dominic is still there everyday churning out the pies.."

of course, I don't remember him being THAT slow 20 years ago.
;-)

"also in case any of you don't know the square slice is the true piece de resistance"
oh my lord, that thing is awesome. I love how they bake the crust separately. I'm not a crust guy, but I'd eat that thing raw

His daughter actually tried to open a place on Houston... its where the aux cops got shot... but it closed like a year ago. Wasn't the same though.

interestingly enough, my folks also went when they were young(er) lovers in Brooklyn...

i have to correct myself... there was one pizza joint you'd travel for in my day.... spumoni gardens.

Though not sure if it was the pizza (one of my favorites)... it seemed to half be about the "scene". Guidos! It was the Jersey Shore before MTV...

I think it was about the pizza at Spumoni Gardens. You're right about the not traveling for good pizza thing though. That's because all the neighborhood places in brooklyn were terrific. I used to take class trips to the local pizzaria and they took pizza making seriously. The transplants are less discriminating so pizza places today can get by with sub-par pizza.

I long for Spumoni Gardens!

"Midtown 2/1 condo at $747 psf: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/461586-condo-57-west-58-street-midtown-new-york

Imperfect, as is everything, but there're lots of these.
"

This is funny, because I calculate < 800 actual square feet here, so it's more like 1000psf

"I think it was about the pizza at Spumoni Gardens. You're right about the not traveling for good pizza thing though. That's because all the neighborhood places in brooklyn were terrific. I used to take class trips to the local pizzaria and they took pizza making seriously. The transplants are less discriminating so pizza places today can get by with sub-par pizza."

Agreed. What passes for "amazing" pizza blows my mind. I've done most of the stuff that gets top ranking these days, and a lot of disappointment. Especially the fancier ones. Franny's? Went 4 different times, and I still don't know who these people giving it top ratings are.

The Lombardis and John's used to be pretty good (though never the best), but they churn the stuff out waaaaaaay too fast now. The guys there have basically admitted it to me. Lombardi's is 3x the size with the same oven! They just don't cook them enough now. They just don't pay attention.

And grimaldi's? Forget about it, its a joke. Of course, all the transplants still make the trip, and subway home with half a lousy pie.

If I had to pick a pie place, its probaby Totonos. Far enough from the transplants in manhattan and wanna be brooklyn that it doesn't get as crazy. And it closes early. Much more manageable pizza making effort. Of course, haven't gone back since it burned.

Interestingly enough, one of the best pies I had in the last 5 years was in Trenton.... and New Haven can be inconsistent... but its always better than Lombardi's/Johns.

But I think its heisenberg again... the popularity of pizza killed it. You just can't make 10x the number of pies and have them be as good.

totonnos is the best, but i only get it when i go to coney island. there is like NO really good pizza in the EV / LES... what do you guys like these days as far as downtown goes? well there's a couple holdouts on wall street that are really good... i like it old school, thin crust, well done, yum.

sorry if i hijacked this thread with the difara comment but brooklyn pizza is special. somewhere and glamma i will also concur that totonnos is stellar..the manhattan totonnos proves the fact that it is the hands of the pizzialo that makes all the difference..the manhattan branches pale in comparison to the coney island mothership..my favorite old school manhattan slice is the hole in the wall Sal and Carmines on bway btwn 101st and 102nd. unfortunately this year one of the namesakes(sal) a pizza legend passed away. if you do get a chance to try it don't miss it but remember 1)plain slice only(the toppings are nothing special) 2)drink lots of water because it is beautifully salty

moxie, don't worry, threads get hijacked all the time here, and for far less interesting reasons than pizza.

glamma, Luzzo's is pretty darn good - give it a shot. I've only tried the original (very good), but Motorino just opened their second place in the EV, right? Isn't Artichoke supposed to be good as well?

somewhereelse,

You possess a wealth of knowledge.

luzzos is pretty good. motorino in manhattan is very good but not old school. motorino is part of that frufru collection(neapolitan w great ingredients)that includes keste,company(co.),fornino,frannys(sorry somewhere but i do agree with your diss),robertas ect.
as for artichoke the square slice is no difara but the closest you can find to it w/o the 45min subway ride to brooklyn but do grab lots of napkins cause it be OILY..there namesake slice the artichoke is an abomination in my opinion..

moxie, how does the Motorino in the EV compare to the one in Williamsburg (assuming you've been to both)? The Pugliese I had was top notch (much better than at Fornino, which I also love, but for their other pies). NY Magazine did an article about these frou-frou pizza places - it's an interesting trend. Not sure if it'll just be a fad, as it has all the tell-tale signs of one, but it's hard to deny the power and appeal of a good local pizza place.

bjw, both motorino's are good. i can't say there is much of a discernible difference. my favorite thing at fornino is their awesome wedge salad but their margherita and marinara are awesome as well(confession i am a vegetarian)

> totonnos is the best, but i only get it when i go to coney island. there

> the manhattan totonnos proves the fact that it is the hands of the pizzialo that makes all the
> difference..the manhattan branches pale in comparison to the coney island mothership..

Well, of course.

But note these that the manhattan ones aren't even "branches".... they have a different name. Check the box, they say "totonos of coney island"... and note the other locations... NOT including coney island. Its like judging nathan's by the place in the airport. ;-) Even they don't pretend its the same thing.

"somewhereelse,

You possess a wealth of knowledge."

thanks for letting me share...

"my favorite old school manhattan slice is the hole in the wall Sal and Carmines on bway btwn 101st and 102nd"

I can't believe you're taking that over Cheesy/Cheezy Pizza, the pizza so nice they named (misspelled it) twice...

(no, i'm not serious)

thats also a good one.

as of late, my slice choice has been Ray's of Greenwich (6th ave @ 11th). Its not the first ray's, but its most likely the one that started the name craze. I had friends growing up who loved it so, and I rediscovered it recently.... pretty consistently great. After Joe's fell in the toilet (with the whole lie about "moving" to a place that was already up and runnning) I needed a fix.

I miss Joe's too. I used to like Pizza Box on Bleeker for old school brooklyn style but it appears to have gone downhill.

is pizza slang for 1br apartment?

good taste 11201. in its heyday pizza box was absolutely one of the best. not so much anymore. ah Joes...

somewhere, my favorite thing about cheesy was their hilarious sign "best slice pizza of manhattan"
just peeking my head in the door was enough to know no thanks

somewhereelse,

"thanks for letting me share..."

I look forward to your post.

Anything below 1,200 psqft in Manhattan is ghetto.