Making it warmer -- specifically, windows

My guess is that the windows were installed without adequate caulking/flashing. I'd have that checked (maybe in the spring) before adding another layer of windows.

you're not going to like this suggestion but if you really are freezing....and i would try in one room first.

plastic over the window with tape...obviously, use tape that won't ruin the plaster.

Most aluminum window cases have a thermal break that should stop the transfer of cold through the metal but it will always be somewhat cold. The insulation value of glass is close to zero. A single pane is less than R-1, double pane low-e is around R-2.5 so its going to be cold no matter what. The key is for the source of heat to be as close as possible to the areas of heat loss in order to minimize cold zones. This is why in forced air applications the vents are usually located close to windows. If your Edwardian has some funky arrangement with respect to the heat registers then you may be experiencing the effects of poor placement. It might seem counter intuitive but before investing in a lot of window treatments I might try circulating the air a little if possible. Otherwise strategic placement of a portable heater that can be used during those few weeks a year that its really needed, might help.

You might want to have the super check the air valves on the radiators. If air can't get out, the steam can't get in.

We've got the same issue with our 1990's aluminum replacement windows. Supposedly built with a thermal break, but very cold to the touch.

We're talking [sss...sss] steam heat here.

What do your neighbors say about heat levels? And have you measured the actual temperature in various parts of the room?

I wonder if there's a powerful little fan you can put under your radiator, blowing upward, to turn your room into a convection oven. Patent pending.

I love the fan idea, thanks spin and ah. We are going to buy a little portable Vornado heater/fan thingy, and now we know to place it right near the windows (which is where our current baseboard heat is -- we have the pipes and fins kind.)

We have separate radiators in the kitchen and bath, and they've already been bled (good call though NWT). They're on sometimes, but not all the time. Some of this may be the standards of the co-op/managing agent, since we got a cheery note from Midboro that they only needed to provide heat to 55 degrees. (I know technically, that's true, it's just that we come from a very toasty building, and we're used to that, and frankly I find it tough to sleep in a 60-degree room.)

I think if we run a portable heater during the day (we would never run one at night due to fear of fire) and seal the windows some more it will help.

Most of our neighbors have been in this building forever, and they were used to the old drafty windows, so to them it's relatively warm now. However, the doormen are running a portable heater in the lobby, so I know I'm not imagining things.

ali

Space heaters are wildly inefficient with electricity usage, and we have rates much much higher than the rest of the country, so try the fan setting first, before the heater setting, on your Vornado, and see if that brings relief.

And try very local heating with a space heater ... under your desk while you're there, under your dining table, etc.

I like sleeping in a somewhat cold room under a nice warm comforter -- much more healthy than the typical bone-dry overheated NYC apartment. But I draw the line at cold bathrooms.

I wonder about caulking around those windows, too, ali. I try to keep my heat fairly low for a number of reasons but it does get cool. I dress in layers even in the house & I use a portable electric heater in the bathroom when I'm naked & wet but I never turn my back on it because they are dangerous. I keep my windows pretty uncovered in the front rooms because I've always liked to look out the window but I pull the roller shades down in the kitchen at night & in the morning you can feel the cold air behind them. Years ago I was at an open house with a verry British decor & was surprised & charmed to see chenille draperies at the window. I've often thought of covering windows with blanketing - fashionably, of course. I think that winter window treatments are an excellent idea. My father, an old New Englander, tightly closes the venetian blinds & closes the curtains to keep the cold air out. Them old New Englanders KNOW.

p.s. I remember seeing ads for a plastic film which you apply inside the windows; do you use a hairdryer to activate the tape which attaches it to the window frame? Perhaps ask at the big box stores.

Two observations: We have thinnish cotton curtains in front of some of our windows and it is MUCH colder between the window and the curtain than it is on the room side. A New England friend hung a similar curtain across the doorway between the room with the woodstove and the front hall; the difference is about 8 degrees.

" I remember seeing ads for a plastic film which you apply inside the windows; do you use a hairdryer to activate the tape which attaches it to the window frame? Perhaps ask at the big box stores."

YES!!! I've used this in the past, and it works like a charm. If you do it properly, the plastic shrink-wraps itself neatly around the window frame tight as a drum, and you won't even notice it.

Most of the local hardware stores should have it -- Ace definitely does: http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1286195&cp=2568443.2568451.2626208.2626341.2627449

Also, when I lived in an UBER-cold apartment in an old house with no insulation, even shrink-wrapping the windows wasn't enough. I normally wouldn't recommend it because of health concerns over EMFs and fire hazards, I have used these in the past because I was just so damn cold I couldn't sleep at night: heated mattress pads. They're pricer than electric blankets, but they're more effective because the heat, which rises, is radiating from BENEATH you, heating your body, rather than from above you, heating your bed spread.

Ali, I just remembered that it made a huge difference when I locked the windows in my last apartment, even though there was no crime-prevention reason to do so. It really forced the two sashes into strict compliance. Are yours locked (usually they're flippy things on the top part of the lower sash)?

The windows and the frames are always going to be cold to the touch because their surface temperature is going to be somewhere between the room temp and the outdoor temperature. The walls are going to be closer to room temperature, but still can be cold. Walls are designed to keep heat in while the primary purpose of windows is to let light in.

During winter there's always a balance in buildings between trying to let heat in (from the sun) and keep heat from leaking out (into the cold). One way to do this is to open blinds or shades during the day (to let in solar heat) and close them at night to reduce radiative heat loss from your room to the outside. Due to radiative heat loss, you'll be much colder if you are sitting directly in front of a cold window, even if the room is warm.

May I suggest looking for any drafts near the windows or other areas? You can do this in a quick and dirty manner by lighting an incense stick and seeing if the smoke rises straight up. Even a small draft can make you cold.

alan hart - you said space heaters are "wildly inefficient". I don't know what you mean by that but typically, resistive heaters are close to 100% efficient in converting energy from electrical to heat. The inefficiency comes from the fact that you are already losing a lot of energy when generating electricity from fossil fuels. And then to convert that electrical energy back to heat energy is just plain wasteful. It would make more sense (talking about efficiency only here) to just burn the fuel in your apartment.

This is how cogeneration power plants approach 100% efficiency, because they use the waste heat from the electrical generation to heat the plant and surrounding buildings.

"Are yours locked (usually they're flippy things on the top part of the lower sash)?"

Thanks for the description, Alan. I'm sure front porch would never have been able to figure out where her window locks are located.

While you're at it, why not tell her where her door locks are? (Usually they're those turny-things located above the doorknob.)

mm is correct that electric space heaters are 100% efficient. I think AH meant they are wildly cost inefficient. However, there is not much, if anything, an apartment dweller can do to generate additional heat that would be more efficient.

Assuming the windows are properly sealed/caulked, the next (easiest) thing is to get the air circulating between the cold area and the thermostat.

Hot air rises & we're closer to the floor than the ceiling. I've never quite undersood how they work but some ceiling fans have blades that turn in 2 directions (clockwise/counterclockwise); one for cooling, the other direction moves the warm air down, I believe.

"mm is correct that electric space heaters are 100% efficient. I think AH meant they are wildly cost inefficient. However, there is not much, if anything, an apartment dweller can do to generate additional heat that would be more efficient." ... both correct.

Matt, another useful post! Plenty of people who live in apartments that don't have fire escapes, etc., don't know (or care) that their windows have locks, let alone where the lock is. Other locks (especially on wooden windows) are on the front of the sash and secure to the frame. That kind has the advantage of locking at various open positions as well as fully closed. But it would be more accurate to say "as well as fully closed, asshole."

"Plenty of people who live in apartments that don't have fire escapes, etc., don't know (or care) that their windows have locks, let alone where the lock is."

Regardless of what city or what kind of dwelling you live in, if you don't know where your window locks are, you're a moron. Period. This is right up there with knowing how to flush a toilet.

It's photoelectronically controlled, there's a foot pedal, you push the plunger on the top of the tank, you flick only half the lever for #1 or the whole thing for #2, you pull up on it for #1 or push down on it for #2, you pull the cord that's attached to the overhead tank, you kick the pedal on the side, etc. etc. etc. What's your point?

Ali,

Best to block the cold air from coming in. Maybe go to Home Depot & buy insulation. My super just insulated my windows with self sticking insulation which he bought at Home Depot.
For my north facing window: When it gets really cold, I put up a Shoji rice paper screen in front of it: the screen helps block the air & the light shows thru the rice paper. When winds are crazy, put pillows behind the screen. This is where I get my screens; they fed ex it, so it's easypeezy: http://www.orientalfurniture.com/oriental-furniture/Room-Screen-Dividers.html

Rugs on the floor really help. For very cold days, I wear Ugg boots as bedroom slippers.

I guess you can't install new windows? IMO, unless you can install new windows, I think you'll need to winterize the apt every year.

In China they put poodles in the windows, behind the rice paper. Pillows are for the dining table.

OK, fine, put a poodle in the window, save the pillows for company.

If you put a red light in the window, some guy will come to keep you warm, and then leave you some money.

Alan, you hussy. How's 8:00? Cash only.

I think AH in no way misunderestimated my ability to understand the parts of a window.

I don't see a "lock" on the top of the lower sash (the way I did with my old windows at the Vendome) but I do see two screws, one on each side, that toggle in a sort of track (two individual tracks, actually). Pushing them both in towards the center (imagine we're working on the x-axis here) at the same time allows the lower sash to sort of pop into the room on the Z-axis (I suppose for cleaning).

So toggling those both "in" (which requires a tremendous amount of forces) and then pushing the lower sash out (towards the outside, again with a big Popeye heave) causes them both to spring "out" and that provides a slightly better seal, I think. I have been outside all day, working, so I am still in my ski clothes, so I can't tell if I am cold or not.

Will have a better report after I change to indoor clothes.

Hopefully you guys have already solved my problem.

ali r.

^force not forces

Dwell, I was waiting for you to entrap me.

Ali, yes, those are for cleaning. I suppose it's possible that your building ordered windows without locks, but I'd check with the super. Unless something's broken, the tilt-in latches shouldn't have anything to do with sealing the windows together tighter.

You just reminded me that in my last apt., the sleazy developer saved probably $2 per window by NOT having the tilt-in mechanism.

Alan, I'm married. one of the great pleasures of that life is that I don't have to put a red light in the window, I just have to put dinner in the oven.

ali

Hopefully you have your problem solved, my dear, but speaking to the super is a great idea. Before you order new windows, though, do be sure that the ones you have are properly installed; the best window is useless if it's leaking air all around it. Good luck!

I can tell you for a fact that if I owned a window installation company and had to pay my employees $4 an hour, I would give them firm instructions NOT to caulk the exterior of the windows above the first floor ... outta sight, outta mind.

not to hijack the thread, but those windows without the tilting mechanism are the bane of my existence!!

Alanhart, since you mentioned those, is there any way to open them to clean them?

I tried googling them without luck,it almost seems like you have to pop the whole glass and metal contraption out? It sounds like a job for my super, but it is very unlikely that he will stand there for 1 hour while I become obsessive compulsive over streaks etc....

has anyone called a professional window cleaning service for that?
any ideas appreciated....

I used to do a death-defying balancing act removing and reinstalling them, and cleaned them in my bathtub (towels beneath) in between shows. Maybe you can get your super to move them to your bathroom, have your girl clean and polish them, then have the super return to reinstall (if he hasn't fallen and he can't get up).

Water with a bit of ammonia, a squeegee and the New York Times -- no streaks.

.

Morning update: the Vornado heater plus AH's trick of checking the sashes made it significantly warmer - a one-comforter vs. a two-comforter night. Didn't wake up from cold till around four, gave up and ran the heater again at six.

Will add another thermal curtain and try some caulking/pillows around the particularly troublesome window in the bedroom, but we can at least limp through this cold spell. Thanks guys!

For window cleaning, I recommend Frank's Window Cleaning on the UES. They'll charge about $60/window, depending on what it is.

ali r.

So let me take this is. You can spend a million dollars on a small apartment in NYC but you can't make sure it has heat before you buy it? Does that sound right to you?

Good morning, ali. Another cup of coffee, dear? Have you tried flannel sheets? Land's End & L.L. Bean should have them. Also you ARE properly attired when you climb into bed, aren't you? Save those peignoirs for spring & summer & choose a long sleeved turtleneck & socks & I've taken to draping a towel over my head as I crawl in at night - SO fetching! You won't be able to get him OFF you. -wink

Do be careful with those space heaters if you're using them while sleeping; DANGER, DANGER, DANGER !

Actually NYRENewbie, we only spent $625K (agents do indeed know where the deals are).

And the apartment has heat, but in the way that two-star European hotels have heat. I'm just a snotty American who would rather drink a nightcap than wear one. (Drdrd: I do wear very fetching camping socks).

ali r.

But darling, you can have your nightcap & WEAR it, too! LIVE a little! Perhaps a silk Hermes is more your style?

Sorry front_porch, I was using "you" to mean anyone, not you specifically. Not pointing fingers, just trying to fathom the reality of it all. $625K is a lot of money, and I'm sure you were not expecting to freeze in your new home this winter for that kind of money. It just seems wrong to me that an apartment can be sold without adequate heating. Of course, the expectation of a buyer in purchasing an apartment is that it will be adequately heated, and, if there is indeed air conditioning, that the air conditioning will also be sufficient to keep the unit at a comfortable temperature. This, I would believe, would be a condition of the sale, otherwise it would need to be pointed out since there is no way to test the building's heating system in the summer time. But one would assume that a building where heating is provided as part of the common charges, the heating should be adequate to warm the apartment.

When I sold a home in the suburbs, I had to alert the potential buyer of any existing problems with the home that I was aware of, otherwise I could be liable. Is there no consumer protection in NYC? Put down your money with no engineering inspection and shut up. Why hasn't anyone formed a consumer group in NYC for real estate owners who have been duped? Why hasn't someone started a company that certifies that buildings have heat, hot water, etc.?

"Also you ARE properly attired when you climb into bed, aren't you?"

People wear "attire" to bed?

i was shocked at the difference that sticky door insulation tape made in my grandparents house.

NYRENewbie,
My heat is certainly "adequate" -- it's just not "luxurious." Remember 1) it's below freezing outside and 2) I've been out in it all day.

I too have owned a home in the suburbs, and my heating bills were close to $1,000 a month (that was for heat that I wouldn't call "luxurious" either!)

It's possibly that my co-op is not warmer because the board realizes that heat is expensive, and they rightly assume that I want them to keep an eye on my common charges. I certainly don't want my building to turn into the Orion, where people buy because breakfast is free -- and then discover that of course money the building spends shows up in their common charges.

ali

What surprises me is that New Yorkers must think freezing in your apartment is status quo. It is not.

No.

"Status quo" in New York is being so hot you keep your windows open throughout the winter.

For anyone who's apartment is always too cold and has steam heat:

a) if your riser has been boxed in, as many have over the years, get rid of the sheetrock which covers it. My radiators are turned off 90% of the time and I get all the heat I need. What most people don't realize is that the guys who designed your one pipe steam system 90 years ago did it with calculations which included the heat from the risers.

b) buy bigger radiators and have them installed. bigger radiator, more heat. And I don't remember ever hearing of a Coop board turn down such a request.

c) people tend to put nice looking radiator covers on for cosmetic appeal. But this drastically reduced air flow, which in turn drastically reduces heating the room.

d) over the years I have seen many instances of steam systems with hot water, aluminum radiation elements (like the fin units you see in baseboard heating. these will neither produce at any one time, not retain the heat of the cast iron radiator which was intended to be used with that type of system.

Matt's totally correct about NY heating status quo. Newbie is clearly a newbie. Coops in NYC just are not going to fork over the mega-bucks needed to convert from the antiquated steam heat systems to anything newer. Interesting ---- that's a huge technical issue looming on the horizon .........

Or have lots of buildings converted their old steam systems to something better and I just don't know????

I watch 'This Old House' every chance I get & they say that the old steam heating system is an excellent one; I have it where I am. I love those beautiful old cast iron radiators & I remember that my aunt had aluminum, maybe just foil?, against the wall behind the radiator to reflect the heat back into the room, I guess. I was talking to a friend in Los Angeles the other day & said that, although it was still below freezing, it seemed more mild; then I realized that the wind had subsided so I didn't have drafts. Find out about maximizing the heat from the radiators, talk to the super & other tenants, dress appropriately & cover those windows to keep the cold OUT.

Aesthetically, drdrd, yes, I agree ----- they can be charming.
But steam heat is not conducive to healthy apt. air (aside from the fact that the old oil burners and the wasted energy use all add up to a big source of pollution and cash-bleed).
Like Matt said ------ blasting steam heat requires open windows in too many residential buildings.

'This Old House' did a piece on the 'open window syndrome' that you see so often & they applied a gauge, nozzle, thingamajig on the end of the radiator & voila, problem solved. My ears always perk up when they mention those systems but the info just goes in one ear & out the other.

"What most people don't realize is that the guys who designed your one pipe steam system 90 years ago did it with calculations which included the heat from the risers."

Interestingly enough, also part of the design of many older buildings is the assumption that heat will rise up THROUGH the floors, freely circulating through each level.

Installing too much soundproofing on the floors and ceilings could end up short-circuiting your building's heating system, making your apartment colder.

One of the biggest problems with steam heating is that so few plumbers - even those who service the boilers of many buildings in NYC - actually understand it since it's so old no one has really installed a new steam heat system in about 50 years. The vast majority of guys who work on boilers know how to replace parts, but are relatively clueless when is comes to actually understanding how they work, how they are optimized, etc. This is why you see in so many buildings windows open, overheating, etc and in almost every building the system being operated at too high a pressure.

This is the most hilarious thread I've read in a long time. I could not help LMAO as I was lying in bed with windows open in all 4 rooms of my toasty north facing prewar 1 bedroom rental apartment...

Thanks for the entertainment... As things go, 15 weather has me sweating under a duvet, and I am always cold otherwise. I am seriously worried about warmer temperatures this winter.

Ok, kidding aside, I never thought co-ops were as stingy as rent-stabilized buildings landlords... And while there is value in well made double (or triple) pane windows, co-op boards often fall for the cheap stuff when doing window replacement jobs. It sure helps to be apartment shopping in winter, when you can notice such things.

And I do sigh about the (rent) money literally going out the window, but that's another NYC real estate non sensical thing that's not about to go.

How is it going, Ali? Have you spoken to the super & other neighbors? Any positive changes to report? It's cold again tonight; I guess that's why they call it winter. Hmmmm.........

It's much better thanks -- Alan saved me with the increased understanding of how my windows work, and the thermal curtain makes a difference. We're using a space heater to fill in, but for example, I'm not running it now, while it's 21 degrees outside.

ali

Ali, run your hand around the window frames, particularly when it's windy, & see if you have drafts. Caulking from the inside might help, in that case, & come spring perhaps you could have a brave handyperson caulk around the outside of those windows, as someone mentioned earlier.