kids and the city

"Besides cost, commute time, and schools?"

So of course 'cost, commute time, and schools' are top reasons for many.
However, I personally find the following to be just as important:
The kind of childhood / environment / activities the kids are exposed to. The stress level of the parents and the kids. Quality of life and health of everyone. Quantity vs. quality of time with the family. Differences in level of "street smart".

that you are in manhattan. duh.

kylewest, can you please clarify in terms of how being in Manhattan is a pro or con for kids?

sunday, as a parent of an older child, i can tell you that the peace of mind one gets from not having to deal with teenagers in cars is just about priceless. teens are horrible drivers, but driving is a part of the suburban maturation process and extremely hard to avoid.

ar, that's a valid concern for suburbs, but not for Brooklyn and Queens. In terms of 'overall' safety and 'health', I don't have the stats on whether it's better in Manhattans vs. the suburbs.

i would take brooklyn or queens, not burbs, over manhattan. less stress, more green space, less density and, at least for me, more street smarts.

since i, and most of my friends, were raised on the streets of brooklyn, queens and manhattan, i will be raising my kids in the burbs. i rather deal with a car accident then my kid at 15 going out to outlaw parties where drugs are everywhere. many of my friends were out at 13 at the underground, palladium, limelight, etc... the kids in the burbs could not reach those places easily.

ab, I grew up in BK too, and was also out partying at WAY too young an age (If you were going to outlaws/storms in BK in the early 90s perhaps we have met!). However, while I was in dirty warehouses, my cousins who lived in Ridgewood, NJ were getting drunk, doing drugs, and having sex in friends' homes. I remember being shocked at what they were up to. When kids look for trouble, they find it, no matter where they are.
Now my sister is raising her kids in Ridgewood, and while it's a lovely place, she can't walk 1/2 a block to take a music class, or 1 block for her daughter to take ballet, as I can. Sunday, if you live close enough to the city in BK or Q, you get the best of both worlds. You can easily travel into the city for all sorts of activities, but you get to come home to (slightly) less congestion, more space for your $, and a better chance of having a neighborhood feel where you live. Brooklyn has amazing public schools, btw, and so many neighborhoods that are as amenity-rich as any in Manhattan.
I've lived in BK and Man., and while living in the city has its perks, I would never want to raise my kids there.

csmack, we definitely met... i agree with you that if kids want to get in trouble, it does not matter. there are good schools in brooklyn and manhattan, but the further up you go (Junior High, High School) the harder it is to find a good school. the area in NJ that i'm actually looking for my future is a walkable area with a thriving downtown. i could not imagine going into the boonies.

I raised two children here we lived in a brownstone on West 22nd. They both went to West Village nursery school(as their Mom did), then PS 3, IS 89 and daughter to Laguardia son to private HS(waste of money!).

I was a young parent so had a lot of energy to hall them around to all the great cultural activities. We went to all the museums on a monthly basis for years. We also shared our love for Manhattan/NYC with both of them such as restaurants, Coney Island,theater,Indian food in Jackson Heights, food shopping at Sahadi's Brooklyn- we really took advantage of everything we had here. They both made great friends along the way and now in there 20's still have many of those friends. I could go on and on....

I would not have done it differently. NYC is one giant world of higher education that your kids will be exposed to and have access to a large cross section of the world every time they step outside.

The only "con" to me would be the lack of green areas, being able to open the door and play in the yard. I don't think your kids are any more sheltered from drugs/alcohol in the burbs.

I think where ever you raise your kids, that's what they'll love and could not imagine doing it another way(in most cases :)

My kids and their friends could not have imagined growing up in "Nutley" where I hail from, though I was sneaking out to punk shows at the Mudd Club and Max's Kansas city when I was 16!

One thing that changed with the high cost of renting/owning and the large shift of wealth into the downtown neighborhoods was the sort of "suburbanising" of these hoods. People who would generally not have lived in NYC started taking up residence, and they took on a kind of suburban feel. I miss the the edginess and diversity of Tribeca, Soho, East Village and West Village, when you didn't need an income of $350k to live and raise your family. It's actually all become a bit bland and homogeneous.

"Haul" sorry typed this kind of quick...

"Haul" typed this kind of quick...

"Haul" typed this kind of quick...

I don't think there is any particular advantage for children to grow up in Manhattan versus Cobble Hill or other nice borough nabe . The advantage is for the adult who isn't spending 1/2 his/her time schlepping back and forth to and from work, friends, social events in Manhattan or choosing to forego these things because of the time suck and inconvenience. And if having the kids isn't working for you, I think a child raised in Manhattan would be easier to sell than one raised in Sunnyside.

BTW, I don't have children.

"One thing that changed with the high cost of renting/owning and the large shift of wealth into the downtown neighborhoods was the sort of "suburbanising" of these hoods. People who would generally not have lived in NYC started taking up residence, and they took on a kind of suburban feel. I miss the the edginess and diversity of Tribeca, Soho, East Village and West Village, when you didn't need an income of $350k to live and raise your family. It's actually all become a bit bland and homogeneous."

Add the West Village and Chelsea to the list of victims of homogenization.

Don't know if the clubs vs cars scenario is as clear cut as many may think. Grew up in Dallas tx and always wondered if my car (and some of my friends) had an autopilot feature. The amount of teen drunk drivers was(and probably still is) astounding. I agree that kids will find trouble no matter where they live but in the city they can take a cab or subway to and from the trouble.

The need for vigilant good-parenting is heightened in an urban environment where more strangers have access to your kids and where there are more opportunities for a child to make seriously wrong decisions just steps from your front door. Driving may be the only thing one worries about less in a city.

I both totally agree and disagree with kw. parents, many of them at least, tend to be more vigilant in the city. I grew up in the burbs and was kicked out of school for drug use at my daughter's age. My parents didn't have a clue. I have a clue.

aboutready: I agree re: drugs. What I mean is that about 1000 more adults per minute have access to your kids in a city than in the burbs. From the laundry room, to the bodega, to the bus stop, to the subway platform, to the park, to the game store...all these places your kids can walk in the city without you driving them there. Between the subway stop and your apartment are a hundred potential risks that a child's momentary bad judgment can cause to blossom in terrible situations. Other than driving, I can't think of a single suburban risk that isn't also present in the city. But in the city, there are a multitude of other risks also present.

All in all, I'd rather raise a kid in the incredible environment of NYC than a suburb. But it does mean a commitment will have to be made by a parent to be a parent in different ways than the burbs demand. Knowing where your child is all the time is harder in the city and more important. Some parents will talk about "I trust my child," which is good, but naive. They'll also say "I can't be there all the time and have to depend on my kid to use the judgment I've tried to impart," which is true, but also naive. No matter what you teach a child, pre-teens, tweens, 13, 14, 15 year old DO NOT have the judgment necessary to protect themselves alone. They need to have a very strong, ever-present sense that there are parents watching over them, monitoring them, keeping an eye on them, and that there are boundaries they must not cross. Based on personal and professional experience in the last 1/4 century, I feel very strongly that raising children in a city can impart invaluable life tools, a world-view and knowledge to a child, but also being a parent in the city has added and difficult challenges that parents must be up for if taking this on.

Yes driving may be the only thing a parent worries about less in the city but it is a HUGE one thing. It is by far the biggest cause of teenage deaths in this country

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html

Also drunk driving is now not the only concern. Teens texting,talking,tweeting on cell phones while driving is the new issue.

kw. well put. but the opportunities for danger are fairly widespread in the burbs.

on a personal note, I'm a stay-at-home mom for many reasons, one being that we're lucky enough that we can afford it. good parenting is vital anywhere. and not so easy.

On another personal note, I think we should move that all families with children be restricted to east of Fifth Avenue.

I grew up in the suburbs and illegal drugs were much more common and easier to get than alcohol. And the people selling were other kids, not adults. I think that adults have a net-positive effect on kids, and having more adults around is a good thing. Don't underestimate the corrupting effect of a McMansion owned by two workaholic parents full of bored suburban kids.

Oh look, aboutready has no ambitions or dignity. She's a stay at home mom because her husband works. Not only does she not work, she doesn't do anything else, no volunteer or community work, etc., doesn't even have any hobbies other than alcohol, the gym, blogging negatively and having a disproportionate number of stories about toilets.

moxie, i totally agree. there's bad choices. and there's death.

teens should not be driving cars. they just shouldn't.

should they be using the toilet?

i think that i may have a more negative view of raising kids in the city for the simple reason that i was raised in 80's. times are different now. no club will allow 13-14 year olds in unless it's teen night and, in general, everything is much better then it was then. i can't imagine raising my children in a place where they cannot walk to town and have everything at their finger tips. when i was looking at the burbs, i was looking for places that were 1 - close to the city (1 hr commute, as i have now) 2 - great schools and 3 - a downtown where there are multiple restaurants, stores, etc.

i know my kids will be in brooklyn and manhattan often. they will have the street smarts and the exposure. i'm just hoping that by making take NJ Transit rather then the subway, it will just be enough of a deterent from doing some of the things that my friends and i did that we shouldn't have :-).

since there's no way that i can afford to live in the city (5 boroughs), have my wife stay home with the kids and pay for good private schools, i'm going to the burbs... not yet though.

i was raised in the burbs in the late '70's early '80s. i think it was pretty off-hand parenting all around. i wasn't at the palladium, but i was stoned out of my mind for a couple of years, starting at 12ish.

sunday, i think that it is easier not to be a soccer mom in manhattan. there is unbelievable pressure for the kids to be oh so involved everywhere, but i think the slackers do a bit better in the city. no data, but from everyone i've talked to it seems to be true.

ab, i totally hear you. you don't need private schools at all for the early years, but then it gets a bit tough. it takes a lot of money to have the stay-at-home AND private schools.

"it takes a lot of money to have the stay-at-home AND private schools."

So don't do private schools.

Problem solved.

matt, do tell us again how many children you've raised? and which middle schools they've attended in NYC?

3 kids. Why do you ask?

Lori Berenson was raised in Manhattan.

matt, do bring pictures to the next SE gathering.

ar, re: pics, be careful what you ask for...

sunday, point well taken.

Lore Berenson was exposed to leftist ideology on the streets of Manhattan. In the burbs, it would have just been sex and drugs and cars.

Is she still in that prison? I seem to recall every time her parents, or the US gov't or the Peruvians were on the verge of getting her released she'd start shouting "power to the people" or some such things and it would all fall apart.

Sunday, as I'm sure you know, raising kids in the suburbs entails parents driving them everywhere which can be difficult if both parents work and you have a housekeeper/nanny who doesn't drive. When I grew up in the suburbs, kids roamed free at a very young age. Now parents drive their kids one or two blocks away. Getting kids to school is often a big issue because of the lack of school transportation. Many schools depend on parents/nannies to drop off/pick up kids and this is often a problem if you work. Also if you don't have a live-in nanny/housekeeper, you can a problem if they depend on commuter rail (LIRR, NJ Transit) to get to your house if the trains run late and the kids need to get to school. On the positive side, there are plenty of places for kids to be outdoors if you can get them away from the video games. There are many organized sports and other activities for kids to do on the weekends and after school.

well, just send your kid to an UES school. no leftist ideology there. lots of alcohol, though.

or not so much, depending. it's hard, either choice, sunday. do what works for you, and hopefully whatever allows you to have more time with the kids. stress levels can't be underestimated, so if you need more than you should afford happily, maybe the burbs are better. it's not easy, and not a simple question.

your bottom line should be an analysis, thoughtful but not overly neurotic, of what gets each and every one of you the most quality. and don't downplay YOUR quality time, it matters. to both you and your kids.

Kyle..You got it right -- and in country ravaged by terrorist attacks, shouting about solidarity and power to the people doesn't make it easier to get a pardon. She has given birth to a child, by a prison guard. She gets out in 2015. ..And all because she was walking through the village and some guy with a Che t-shirt gave her a pamphlet, and in then invited her back to his apartment.

On the post...I do hope the kids go somewhere and rakes leaves or get cut on a sticker bush or pull weeds orsomething natural...maybe summers.

I grew up in Manhattan (elementary/hs/college) and Brooklyn (middle school). I will be raising my kids in Brooklyn. It will most likely be a one family or small two family house perhaps in certain part of Bayridge or Midwood/Homecrest. Many transportation options including express bus. There are soccer programs, swimming lessons, music lessons, nice parks, and other activities near by. Overall, it's a good balance of all the things I care about. I was just curious on what other people consider when making such a decision, in case I missed anything. Thanks to all for your input.

lobster, I don't even have a driver's license. :)

Sunday, your choice of location for your family seems well thought out and a very good blend of everything that is important for a family. Living in the suburbs is much different from when I was younger. Kids are taken everywhere by car and it's a problem in many cases. Best of luck to you and your family.

sunday, funny. i don't have a driver's license either. but pelham and bronxville seemed doable back when we were considering other options.

Being close to my parents, the in-laws, and friends were also very important to us.

Sunday, your neighborhood choice is the one that I chose now, just Sheepshead. The elementary school is great. With middle schools and high schools i have a problem with, went to 2 of them in the area. I have 6 yrs in Brooklyn with good education, then....

the reason that i'm here now is because of the family and the ability to get good education and day care for the younger one.

Moms still stay at home?

Why?

ab, middle school "might" be a bit tricky though the neighborhood I have in mind actually have pretty good middle schools. Between my parents, in-laws, and close friends' addresses, getting into a particular school is fairly easy. High school is actually not that big of a deal because there are much more options if you're ok with them traveling on the trains/buses. How many people walk to their HS anyway? It was a 45 minute commute to my HS and I definitely thought it was worth it be in a better HS. I did some extra studying on the train, so it was no big deal.

i grew up in the nicest of suburbs with a stay at home mom and found tons of drugs and partying and lots of drunk driving. i thought it was super boring, hence the finding of crazy sh*t to do.
raising a kid now in williamsburg and agree that the city stuff to do is a huge advantage. we have a wonderful close knit group of friends with kids and do take our kid to do really amazing stuff. we try to make sure that there is playground and outdoor play all the time - it's not really that hard. having a car helps but isn't totally necessary.

have had really good luck with schools so far as well. we're pretty happy here.

"Moms still stay at home? Why?"

So they don't have to outsource their child-rearing responsibilities to strangers. Duh.

I wonder how my parents raised me, since they both worked....and I turned out fine.

justinb, and matt. both of you, stop. it all depends on the circumstances. my husband was working 70ish hours a week. we decided that it would be best for me to stay at home. it wasn't an easy decision, and i still regret it on some levels, but for this family that is what worked the best.

many different scenarios can work. but many involve a great deal of compromise, few are ideal. we just have to do the best we can given what we have.

I don't think I drove sober when it was dark outside until I was out of grad school....

AR - just curious - what was your career path before you decided to be a stay-at-home mom?

Actually, AR, I have a funny feeling that when you hit 50, you are going to wind up going to law school, just to prove to yourself you can ( I actually know 3 women who did that - they passed the bar, and of course never practiced because their husbands were very successful. Possibly deprived some others of a law school spot).

ph41, why don't you share first? my career was paying for my husband's law school.

what do you do?

ph41, i'd become a real estate broker before going to law school. my husband asks my legal opinion all the time. i know my abilities. what's the point, now? why?

or are you just trying to be not so nice?

Financial Analyst Fortune 500 company, then commercial real estate management, now,(early) retirement

AR - "career" paying for your husband's law school doesn't quite say what you actually did. I thought at some past post you said you were a paralegal, which is why I thing you will go to law school at some point in the future.

And I must say I think you are only person other than myself (and Barbara Walters?) I have ever heard of who doesn't have a driver's license.

which is why I "think" you will go to law school

ph41, if i were to go back to school, it would be public policy. and if you think about that, you'll realize why i am most loathe to do it.

what i would have been best suited for i am now too jaded to do.

AR - actually, I was trying to be nice - sometimes when you reach that "certain age" you try to prove to yourself that your brain is still all there. Too jaded, or perhaps too lazy?

well, you lost all nice points with that last one.

politics? now? not too lazy. not at all interested.

i'm actually thinking about getting a degree from SVA or Parsons in design. but i have time. and in the meantime, i get to spend unbelievably lovely moments with our daughter.

One of my goal is to save enough so that I can afford to try out different careers some day. Sort of like early retirement, except just early retirement from my current career. I hope to do that by the time I turn 50. It will be fun to go back to college for a couple of years, try out a new career for a few years or until I get bored of it and then repeat that cycle.

>>"Moms still stay at home? Why?"
>
>So they don't have to outsource their child-rearing responsibilities to strangers. Duh.

That's what dads are for, Matt. Ideally they're not strangers, and are responsible for child-rearing.

Hi Sunday, I have one child and we are raising her in the city. IMO, the biggest concern for me as a parent is drugs/alcohol/sexual activity. I think as one of the other posters pointed out, kids looking for trouble are going to find it whether they are in suburbia driving around drunk or in Manhattan going to unsupervised apartment parties. Its up to us as parents to raise them right and supervise adequately despite location.

technologic: "Its up to us as parents to raise them right and supervise adequately despite location."

I definitely agree with that. I also believe that a kid can do very well in a slightly better than average school with a good amount of parental involvement.

For those who think, 'my parents left me alone, and I turn out ok.':
My parents also mostly left me alone since both worked 12hr+ a day, 6 to 7 days a week. My parents worked hard and we were poor. That gave me all the motivation I needed to do well in school and stay out of trouble, though there were a couple of close calls where things could have turn out very differently for me. Yes, I think I turned out ok too. I will be paying much more attention to my kids because they live in a very different environment and because I can. We are suppose to do better for the next generation.

Sunday...."its up to us as parents to raise them ...." is exactly what I was going to type if I didn't read it first....no one can blame outside influences on whats best and what happens to the kids....it's hard but you have to be responsible for your kids and make sure they are not hanging out with the wrong crowd...you can't blame the city for that... I know friends who were brought up in the city and suburbs ...the kids were dropping acid and smoking pot over the ones in the city....there is no where to hide in small apartments in the city...there are lots of places to hide in the suburbs.....anyway...it is up to us parents to keep track of our kids.... good luck to everyone!!! I have a 6 and 9 year old..both boys...love the fact we are in manhattan....they can drive when they need to move out....whenever that will be...

oh...I grew up in the suburbs and moved to city for college and stayed....we have a house in country for the weekends by the beach....best of both worlds....my kids can decide for themselves later on ...I like the city too much to live 24/7 in suburbs....not as exciting!

"That's what dads are for, Matt. Ideally they're not strangers, and are responsible for child-rearing."

No. Dads are for supporting the family financially, and providing nurturing after work.

The problem these days is that too many moms want to be DADS too.

"No. Dads are for supporting the family financially, and providing nurturing after work."

... you have every right to be opposed to "same-sex couples" having children, but this isn't the right discussion board for that.

"No. Dads are for supporting the family financially, and providing nurturing after work.

The problem these days is that too many moms want to be DADS too. "

now that's an enlightened view of the modern world.....i thought the men were supposed to hunt and kill the large game while the women and children gather nuts and berries??

At my work place, I see more cases of stay at home Dad's than stay at home Moms and it's not because there are more women where I work. We have about the same number of men as women. Most are two income families though.

Sunday, it seems that there are many good choices of neighborhoods for families now as opposed to maybe 15 years ago when people that I know were very reluctant to stay in NYC to raise children.
I went back to school when I was in my mid 30's for a second degree and I thought that it was actually easier to go to school when you're a little older since you tend to take the whole thing more seriously than when you are 18 or 20 years old.

lobster, you're right, there are more options now, a much safer city in general. Hopefully prices settle back down to more affordable levels soon.

I was a pretty serious student at 18 and 20, but I found that my brain was able to process more complex subjects easier as I got older.