FiDi

The problem with the Financial District is that it never has been -- and never will be -- a "neighborhood". It's a business DISTRICT. And not just any business district, but perhaps the most torqued-up, high energy business district in the world. As such, it will always mostly attract the type of go-go 18-hour/day workaholic resident that only Wall Street can attract: 20-somethings trying to make their fortunes. If you like to be able to roll out of bed right into the office, this is the place for you. If you're looking to build a home and community -- no.

Over the past 13 years I've lived in Hell's Kitchen, LES, Union Square and, for the past three years, FiDi. I keep very regular office hours (not on Wall Street) and enjoy being off the grid. While it is not the most happening place, I can get anywhere I need to with very little hassle- it's nearly as convenient a location as Union Square with far less crowds. When I'm home I can enjoy more space with access to the water and many parks. Factor in $/psf and you have a highly livable area. It may not be for everyone, but it's attractive to a larger population than NYCMatt suggests.

NYCMatt- Tribeca 15 years ago was in some ways worse. A few (like 3) very high priced restaurants, one very inconveniently located supermarket (and this was before Fresh Direct) no retail to speak of, can't even remember if there was a shoe repair place. Totally dead at night, daytime, commercial trucks on those "quaint" cobblestone streets. No movie theater anywhere in the vicinity, forget about a book store, liquor store, clothing store. Oh yes, there was a nice natural health foods store (that is now a VERY upscale clothing store) But yes, Bubby's and Walker's were, and are, there. Oases in the reasoably priced food desert that was Tribeca.

It was all the Wall Street guys that changed it. They could live close to work, (not all the way up on the UES OR UWS) but feel trendy because, after all, that was where De Niro, Jfk jr., and Tom Freston were living, so it had to be cool and hip, right? Of course, De Niro has since gone to the UWS. As have many others who bought fairly early in the neighborhood,(PS234) then realized that they would have to be sesnding the kids to middle school and high school somehwere else in Manhattan (not every kid can get into Stuyvesant).

So neighborhoods change, quite a lot, over time. May still happen in FiDi

"It was all the Wall Street guys that changed it. They could live close to work, (not all the way up on the UES OR UWS) but feel trendy because, after all, that was where De Niro, Jfk jr., and Tom Freston were living, so it had to be cool and hip, right?"

Proof positive that you can't BUY style.

But NYCMatt - do you realize how much those people made when they sold a few years later? A full floor newly built conversion in an old warehouse, originally purchased for less than $1,000,000 sold later for $4,000,000 (and there were a number of those, as well as smaller units in the building I am thinkng of)

So they got rich.

Doesn't mean they had style.

That is some silly shit. Does anybody honestly think that FiDi is the only area attracting wall street types, or even that it is one most attractive to them? A greater proportion of hedge funds and ibanks are in midtown and it has been that way for years. That is part of the reason for all of the office conversions downtown. So if these types want to live near work they are more likely to live in east midtown or the UES.

FiDi is short on amenities, sunlight and decent floorplans (the buildings were built for offices after all). That is why it rents and sells at a discount to other areas. Until those issues are solved it always will and only one of them really can be solved.

The people I know down there are actually young families who want to stay in Manhattan but are priced out of other locations.

I think West of Broadway buildings and BPC are the best bets for below Chambers.

I don't think you can compare Tribeca (or SOHO for that matter, also barren in the 70's-early 80's) with FIDI. I moved to NYC in 1981 and lived downtown, Tribeca was barren of retail/restaurants, though Montrachet was an adventurous trip for many Upper East Sider's, it had wonderful lofts and The Mudd club (: The potential for a shift was there for many reasons.

FIDI is what it is for better or worse, I just don't see any reason to try and compare it to something I don't think it will ever be.

>>> It's a business DISTRICT. And not just any business district, but perhaps the most torqued-up, high energy business district in the world.

Not really anymore. Wall Street is really for the most part in midtown - nobody is really downtown except Goldman. Citigroup is downtown too, but in Tribeca proper.

While I think amenities in FiDi will continue to improve, I don't really see it becoming a hot or super-desirable neighborhood. I could see it becoming like a Murray Hill - convenient but not particularily charming. The subway access is great. Wouldn't say the park access is great, but it's decent. The poster who said the lack of the light there is a problem is right. Narrow streets can have a certain charm, but usually only when accompanied by low buildings (like the West Village). High builings + narrow streets = little sunlight. Nonetheless, there is only so much space in Manhattan so over the long-term this should help FiDi. I would certainly say in 10 years the gap between FiDi and other neighorhoods in Manhattan will be narrower than now, as amenities down there improve. I think there will always be some discount because of the lack of light and somewhat wierd layouts of many of the buildings. 5 years is probably too short of a time frame; but 5 years is too short of a time frame to buy anything.

Personally, I think the neighorhood with the most upside potential in Manhattan is South Harlem - the stretch right above the park to 125th street. But that's also not a 5 year bet.

Hmmmm...I might put Harlem above FiDi in terms of upside potential. With office vacancies so sky high in Fidi, and with the WTC EVENTUALLY being built, I think its increasingly likely that even more office buildings will be converted to housing in Fidi. This I think will limit price appreciation relative to other up and coming NYC 'hoods. But in terms of being NICE and LIVEABLE, having lived in both, I think FiDi is and will be nicer than SoHa for the forseeable future. Especially if you live West of Broadway, as I did, so as to get sunlight + be near BPC + near subways.

FiDi may not be for everybody but there are a good number of us who really enjoy it. Everybody who lives down here has a reason but some of the more common ones include:
1) precisely what others don't like about FiDi - there are not tons of bars and restaurants and all the traffic that goes with it. We can walk outside our door with our dog and not have to worry about tons of people - I would not want to walk around chelsea in my sweat pants and sneakers late at night. There are plenty of places to eat and drink if you want (check out Front Street near the seaport) but not the craziness of other areas of Manhattan.
2) Subway access - almost every subway line runs down here.
3) Short cab ride or walk to West Village, SoHo, TriBeCa - it's easy enough to get there without the traffic and noise.
4) the buildings in FiDi are among the most beautiful in the City - that, together with the winding streets, gives it a unique feel.
5) Battery Park and the prominade are very nice.
6) PS234 (in case it matters and you didn't know, I am told PS234 is one of the best NYC public schools). On a related note, while not an issue for us, there are a lot more families down here.
7) most buildings are pet friendly
8) There are some nicer, more upscale, places to go now - check out the restaurant at the Setai and 75 Wall.
9) Many nice condos and rentals (no coops that I know of).
10) While there are not as many services as other parts of the city, there are enough to make living comfortable. Whole Foods is a short walk; there are several grocery stores, bars/restaurants on Stone Street and Front Street, nice liquor stores,

Before everybody lists all the bad things about FiDi - I am not saying it is the perfect neighborhood or right for everybody. I am just saying that there are a good number of us who really enjoy and choose to live here over other places in the city. Among the negatives, I think the biggest are - lack of light in many apartments, constant construction, while the services are good during the week and to some extent on saturday, many are closed on Sundays.

FWIW, I personally think that most of the condos are overpriced - there are literally hundreds of units on the market (75 Wall, Setai, 20 pine, Beaver House plus others I can't think of right now; plus, 25 Broad and 45 John will eventually go back on the market). I think prices on condos will still come down a lot - I just saw on TV this weekend that lenders/developers in Miami are finally getting rid of the excess inventory there by dropping prices significantly. I think that needs to happen in Manhattan, especially in FiDi.

Also, I think when the economy comes back, you will see more retail on Wall Street and Broad Street. Tiffany and Hermes look nice, but not overly practical on a daily basis.

thanks for all of the input. i definitely don't think Wall Street (FiDi) is as NYCMatt describes. most businesses have moved midtown long ago. most of the banks and financial institutions have converted into condos. all the things that people have mentioned about that making for awkward living space is what i seem to love... big spaces with loft like feel,high ceilings, hardwoods, and cement between you and your neighbor! and while the streets are narrow when you look at your window there may not but much light, but the bldg across the way has great architectural detail, some of the best in the city in contrast to the glass and steel in the uptown neighborhoods. The challenge for my situation is the opposite, work in midtown need to take train to work. while i don't mind the area, and fell in love with a specific building, i don't think i can convince my spouse to move down there. i'm still working on it, will try and grab some dinner in the area and see how far of a walk it is to some of the trendier neighborhoods. don't really want the bars and nightlife, don't want the starting out family area either. we're young 40's with older teenagers, so we kind of fit into everywhere and nowhere all at once.
just trying to outway what is important to us.

Downtown1234...you forgot Century 21...best shopping anywhere!!!!!

I never quite got the FiDi-Tribeca distinction. It takes about 2 minutes to walk from FiDi to Tribeca.

Just to echo the other posts:

1. There are many grocery stores (Gristedes, Associated, Zeytuna, Jubilee) in the Financial District.
2. There are many drug stores, several Duane Reades and a CVS, most now open on Sundays.
3. There are dry cleaners on every block.
4. Just about every subway line goes there.
5. Transportation will get even better when the Fulton Street Station is completed in the next year or so.
6. It is not filled with restaurants and clubs but has lot of restaurants throughout.
7. It is generally easy to get a cab, especially at the Seaport.
8. It is about a 10 minute cab ride to the village, less than that by subway, and 20 minute walk.
9. It is quiet at night.
10. Once the WTC and Fulton Street Station are more fully underway, and given space limitations in Manhattan, prices will skyrocket. Again, this goes back to my first point -- there won't be much of a distinction between FiDi and Tribeca/Soho, so there won't be much of a price distinction. The biggest difference is that FiDi is a lot less gritty than the other areas.

FiDi has lagged as a residential area but this will change as the economy recovers 2011-2015.

"Downtown1234...you forgot Century 21...best shopping anywhere!!!!!"

Not for YEARS. Not since before 9/11. Its TOO crowded with tourists day and night. Its too full of cheap merchandise, whereas it USED to regularly have aisles and aisles of Gucci, Versace, high-end Ralph Lauren, etc. These days designers have more of their own outlets and websites, or use BlueFly and other websites. If your goal is to find cheap high-end merchandise, Century 21 has not been the place for 10 years.

"I never quite got the FiDi-Tribeca distinction. It takes about 2 minutes to walk from FiDi to Tribeca."

Uhhh, I lived there for 4 years, and one of my best friends lived at 2 Gold - and it was at least TEN minutes to the very bottom of Tribeca. And I lived above Rector. Those who lived farther east and/or south of me would take 15-20 minutes.

Its NOT easy to get a cab near broadway or the WSH - its actually easier in Harlem.

The rest I will agree with with the caveat that subway stations below Canal are closed on the weekends ALL THE TIME.

I think fidi will be pretty cool in 10 years. But they can't pay me enough to live there now (and they're trying to, with what you can rent for the $$$).... the construction. The complete dead in off hours (and to anyone who says they like it, then why the F*ck are you paying so much more to live in Manhattan), the lack of amenities, the distance from stuff (yes, great train access, but everything seems to run local on weekends and its not a quick trip).

> and it was at least TEN minutes to the very bottom of Tribeca

I think the confusion is because developers have been lying about where Tribeca is. Folks who just moved here to Ohio think Batter Park city is tribeca... all that stuff on chambers street. Seriously?!!?

tribeca... at least the part worth living in... is west of w.broadway, south of canal, and north Muray. When you hit barclay you have gone to far south. For the sake of Larry Silverstein, I will include 7WTC in tribeca thus expanding the southern border to the south side of 7.

how about the east border? I love the folks who think you can be on the other side of the Wside Highway.