Whole Foods & Real Estate Prices

With Whole Foods, Gristedes, Food Emporium and Gourmet Garage in the West 90s, why shop out of your neighborhood? If you are truly interested in "gentrifying" a neighborhood, buy local.

i find associated to be FAR more expensive than whole foods. except perhaps for their substandard meat.

Why shop outside the 90s if I live in the 90s? Because I like Fairway and it's selection -- great breads, cheeses, fruits & vegetables (including some not available elsewhere), an organic section upstairs, good selection and quality of just about everything, and prices that tend to be better than anywhere else for almost the same items. I've found Gristede's to be overpriced and not great quality. Whole Foods is always good quality, but it's more expensive and I can't always taste the difference with Fairway's produce. Associated still has products that are more intended for a lower-income neighborhood and that are competitively priced -- when I'm not in the mood for super-gourmet, I'll go there.

And, for what it's worth, the "bodega" on the southwest corner of 96 & Columbus is a bit more expensive than a real supermarket, but has really nice quality breads, bakery goods, and produce. In fact, they sell restaurant-quality cakes (that normally go for $6-8/slice) for around $30-40.

Shopping at Fairway is an only in NYC experience.

PMG -- absolutely agreed. On so many levels.

I shop locally LOL

It's a recession. I shop the weekly specials at D'Agostinos for just the bare essentials. Just got some Angus T-Bone for 9.99/lb.

It's a recession. I shop the weekly specials at D'Agostinos for just the bare essentials. Just got some Angus T-Bone for 9.99/lb.

I miss the taco truck at Broadway and 96th ;)

I think the whole foods on 98th street will have less of an impact on that area than a whole foods in Harlem. I guess it has to do a little bit with pricing - despite some crazy asking prices on Harlem condos, the discount to live in Harlem is a lot more than the discount to live in Manhattan Valley if you look at closed deals. Now, I'm not saying this isn't deserved but in terms of crime/schools/project density South Harlem is no worse. Transport options are basically the same - South Harlem is basically another stop on the subway but you also have access to the bus lines that serve the East Side and aren't that far from the east side subways if you live near Lenox, so it might be marginally better. Amenities are the major complaint in Harlem, so I guess I think the incremental change a Whole Foods brings is greater. Plus it's the whole perception value - Manhattan Valley doesn't have the stigma of Harlem, and Whole Foods will help lessen that stigma a bit. Now, I don't think it's going to make Harlem real estate prices shoot up dramatically - I think it will just make the neighborhood more attractive to potential homeowners which will increase critical mass which will bring more retail over time, which will slowly tickle into prices in the next upturn - but it certainly would be a positive. In Manhattan Valley it's a nice to have but it's not the same event.

is a whole foos coming to harlem?

The city approved to give about $20mm of tax-free financing to Emmitt Smith and a group of investors to develop a Hyatt + Retail on that vacant lot on the Southwest corner of Lenox & 125th. The retail will supossedly include a Whole Foods.

This has been in the Wall Street Journal, etc. so it's clearly not entirely far-fetched but plenty of grand plans for 125th street have not happened. There is another grocery store called Wild Olive on 125th Street near Madison, there is Citeralla on the far West Side of 125th, and Best Yet on FDB - so there are some upscale grocers already ...

PMG, that taco truck moved to Broadway & 104, SE corner.
About the Whole Foods influence: let's not forget that it's still surrounded by projects, and they're not moving away. From w 100th up it's just projects, no room for storefronts or new retail.

This is true in manhattan valley ... not true in the proposed harlem location though.

Above 116th there's plenty of room for retail. There's some interesting retail there already.

kspeak, right. That's why I think that Whole Foods does improve the situation in Harlem but has no real impact in Manhattan Valley. There was hope that 455 CPW will improve the area but with no services/amenities, that didn't happen.

What about 100th down? Plenty of retail opportunities there and many blocks are looking rather blighted. I'd not argue that it's a cure but it sure has to help.

Inquirer didn't you sell recently in manhattan valley?

Definitely helps on margin ... more so in Harlem for the reosons inquirer and I have said.

Reminds me of a beautiful apartment on 5th avenue that I looked at - in the mid 100s so technically East Harlem. The place was gorgeous and litteraly would have cost 2x if it had been just 8 blocks South. It wasn't that I was opposed to East Harlem, but I realized that stretch - with the hospital and the projects - would never really have much in the way of retail, no matter how nice East Harlem in general gets. There just isn't the physical space for storefronts, or for critical mass of people to move in. I could see it working for a certain type of buyer for sure though.

kspeak, another thing is that besides the projects, there's the "community" problem: for some reason, they seem to be opposed to everything but beauty parlors and bodegas. It's sort a not-talked-about issue but if you speak with retail people, they tell you that it's next to impossible unless you're a Dominican or Puerto rican. Weird.

inquirer I heart you for telling me where the Super Taco truck went. Any idea where the magical tamale cart that used to be around 107 on Amsterdam went?

Ephraim, part of the reason people argue the "Whole Foods" effect is that that fancy grocery was seen as a driver in the gentrification of Columbus Circle. I bought there in 2003 and my apartment (now an investment apartment) is worth about 65% more than I paid it for it, even post-crash.

It remains to be seen whether the retail at Columbus Square will have the same effect.

ali r.

I don't think Manhattan Valley places generally trade at a 50% discount to "prime" Manhattan so that's what I think limits the upside (and who would say that broader Manhattan has tremendous upside right now in the near term). I looked briefly at Manhattan Valley and concluded that in general the discount I would get vs. the rest of UWS was no more than 25%. As amenities improve - Whole Foods is a biggie - that may shrink a bit more, but I think the concentration of housing developments and being farther "up" means it will not command quite the same prices as prime UWS for the forseable future. I think South Harlem is a different story - the discount is over 50% (for closed deals, crazy asking prices aside) and there are actually less projects and arguably a more "Villagey" feel with its low housing stock and brownstones. Amenities are the real complaint so incrementally each major thing helps a lot. I'm certainly not arguing Harlem should be in line with Manhattan Valley prices yet, but I see this as a very real possibility in the not-too-distant future. So I think the Whole Foods is a more important part of the story in Harlem if it comes.

Columbus Circle has a fancy Equinox, restaurants, a hotel, retail and (perhaps most importantly) lots of office workers, some of whom prefer housing nearby. Hearst also expanded their headquarters dramatically in the area. Price appreciation certainly was not entirely a "whole foods effect". What you are witnessing is the migration of the gentry class Westward, particularly in the 60s

I lived in the Columbus Circle area before the Coliseum was finally (!) developed. When it was being built, I was cynical about the whole idea. Thought it might become another Manhattan Plaza, grotty and under-used. I think it "opened" up that area of low 60s/high 60s from CP to the river. While transport links were good, the area suffered from a lack of foot traffic because there wasn't any "useful" retail. One sorry D'Ags. A couple of diners. Drugstore, dollar store, a few clothing stores. Every time I had to go food shopping, it was either contending with bug-infested crap from D'Ags or schlepping up the windy plains of Bway to reach Fway.

Whole Foods at Columbus Square delivers to Harlem--that was one of their goals behind an uptown store. You can bet they're monitoring sales closely.

>> Whole Foods at Columbus Square delivers to Harlem--that was one of their goals behind an uptown store. You can bet they're monitoring sales closely.

I know & agree. There has been a bunch of failed retail in Harlem so naturally it's wise to be cautious. But to me so much of that was ill-concieved to begin with: caviar bar, rolls royce dealership, a specialty tea room - either too niche or too upscale. I've said before I am cautiously optimistic that a Whole Foods on 125th street & Lenox could work. Like Starbucks, Whole Foods caters to a pretty wide audience ... both my nanny and cleaning lady pick things up from there (they don't buy all of their staples there of course - but who does?). I think it needs to be on 125th & Lenox to work though, because that's where it can draw from South, Central, East, & West Harlem. You'd be right in the heart of the brownstone stock both North & South of 125th, and would be walkable for people from Strivers Row, SoHa, the developments on third avenue in East Harlem.