Location Location Location

And deserves to command the highest p.s.f. prices?

Long Island City.

strvejhx HILARIOUS

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/20656-long-island-city

If you are looking at price per square foot? Then Central Park South and the first few blocks on Central Park West (1 CPW, 15 CPW & AOL Time Warner) would be the answer.

But when you are looking for yourself, the answer has to do more with what are you purchasing compared to what is available in the area as well as proximity to transportation. Transportation is key in most situations.

No real answer to that; everyone has different tastes in what the ideal neighborhood is. For me, I'm a devoted downtowner (Chelsea for 8 yrs, now have been in EV for a while) but if someone offered me a sweet apartment on central park I'd be packing my bags pretty quickly.

Depends on who you are. Old money, blue blood, social register WASP = prime UES (b/w Fifth & Park, 68 - 86). Liberal, interested in the performing arts, most new money = prime UWS (CPW b/w 60 - 81). Hip, super-artsy, trust fund babies = West Village. Those are definitely the top 3 for big money depending on where you land with regards to social preference.

Any discussion of Top 3 has to include Tribeca - which I would say is a combo of the West Village types you described with finance/fashion/media new money types. Tribeca is the most expensive zip code in NY, although I think the West Village is just as expensive on an apples to apples basis ... Tribeca just has nicer housing stock.

West Street. I can't remember the stat exactly,it was some sort of psf for specific blocks or so, but the stuff o the water, the meier buildings, topped the list.

Also, NOBODY can tell me that columbus circle is the primo spot. That is mostly the building. That happens with 15CPW too. And the question was location.

I have to imagine that if you put the 15 CPW on 5th avenue and 65th it would be a little more expensive.

Other suprhigh psf signings...

1 Madison Square Park
Plaza (especially for what you're getting)

I have to imagine that if you put the 15 CPW on 5th avenue and 65th it would be a little more expensive.

I disagree. 15 CPW has a private drive, with limited car access roads for privacy buffs. It fronts Central Park. For people who venture out in public, you can walk minutes to Whole Foods, Fine Dining, Jazz at Lincoln Center, Lincoln Center, art house movie theaters, Carnegie Hall, even Broadway theaters.

> 15 CPW has a private drive, with limited car access roads for privacy buffs

Again, not specific to location. For comparison of location, the building on 5th ave would have same thing, no? Otherwise, its not the sam building.

> It fronts Central Park.

Did they move the park? 5th ave no longer on it?
;-)

> Carnegie Hall

Where do you think 5th avenue is? Seriously?

"Depends on who you are. Old money, blue blood, social register WASP = prime UES (b/w Fifth & Park, 68 - 86). Liberal, interested in the performing arts, most new money = prime UWS (CPW b/w 60 - 81). Hip, super-artsy, trust fund babies = West Village."

We getting our steeotypes from tv sitcoms now?

somewhereelse. way to cherry pic the comments: did you forget walking to Whole Foods, Jazz at Lincoln Center, Lincoln Center, art house movie theater, even Broadway theaters. What exactly is special about NYC to you? I'd say walking to great entertainment and avoiding 5th Ave parades (of all the parades, my favorite is the Thanksgiving parade, because its on a holiday and the floats are cute) is worth a premium. So put a first class building in a convenient location, and it is MORE valuable. Just because 5th Ave has historical value doesn't make it a better.

Columbus Circle has a few star restaurants but generally it's well known the the UWS and Hell's Kitchen aren't dining hotspots, although the UWS has improved dramatically recentely.

Of course, when I say a neighborhood has great restaurants I'm less focused on the destination restaurants and more on the everyday, neighborhood places you'd actually pop into. I don't see a reason to live near Per Se - you don't just pop in there for dinner on a whim. I see a reason to live next to, say, Elio's on the UES or Tartine in the West Village.

well, maybe 15 CPW people pop into Per Se ...

If you live for restaurants, live somewhere else besides Columbus Circle and get a good cardiologist.

Local, reasonably priced restaurants (thinking under $20 for most entrees) are a huge boost to QOL in my opinion. But you really only need about 4-5 good ones before the marginal return is too slight to make a fuss about. In my experience though, even in a city with this many good restaurants, that's harder to come by than you might think. Some of the most well-reputed neighborhoods and street blocks are surprisingly lacking.

"somewhereelse. way to cherry pic the comments: did you forget walking to Whole Foods, Jazz at Lincoln Center, Lincoln Center, art house movie theater, even Broadway theaters. "

If you have to name lincoln center twice, and completely ignore everything on the east side.

> exactly is special about NYC to you

If you're trying to note 5th ave area not having cultural attractions, one must ask...

have you ever BEEN TO nyc?

> So put a first class building in a convenient location, and it is MORE valuable.

Not really. Put it in Times Square. Put it a block from Union Square. YOu think it goes up? Really?
Wow.

It really depends who you are and what you think make a place special...

If you have all your teeth and $35 they will let you be the Mayor of Williamsburg.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king!

Here King Here King......oh good boy.

>> Local, reasonably priced restaurants (thinking under $20 for most entrees) are a huge boost to QOL in my opinion. But you really only need about 4-5 good ones before the marginal return is too slight to make a fuss about. In my experience though, even in a city with this many good restaurants, that's harder to come by than you might think. Some of the most well-reputed neighborhoods and street blocks are surprisingly lacking.

Could not agree more. Tribeca is a classic example of one that's lacking; I think the West Village, East Village, and UES are really strong in this way. But Tribeca lacks "pop in restaurants" though I left 5 years ago so maybe it's gotten better. How many times can one go to Bubby's?

Somewhereelse - what would be your demographic breakdown of those most likely to live in those particular areas? I have lived in all 3 over the past 15 years and haven't really watched many sitcoms since Seinfeld closed shop.

"Could not agree more. Tribeca is a classic example of one that's lacking; I think the West Village, East Village, and UES are really strong in this way."

Didn't want to name names, but Tribeca was also at the top of my list there. I'm not as sure about the UES on the opposite end of that spectrum (lots of average food, which is still better than some neighborhoods, but still). The UWS also, unfortunately lacks a bit. East village, LES, and Williamsburg are tops for me.

and back to the original point... is anyone else really having trouble separating the value of location vs. value the specific building in that location adds?

Is it really that tough to understand the difference?

"Somewhereelse - what would be your demographic breakdown of those most likely to live in those particular areas? I have lived in all 3 over the past 15 years and haven't really watched many sitcoms since Seinfeld closed shop. "

I lived in 2 of them and the found your assessment off. They're much more diverse than that. Anw village being trust fund hipsters? Never saw that when I lived there.

I think the UES has some great little places. They aren't trendy in the way the downtown restaurants are. Tribeca may have gotten better, but, that's one of the reasons I didn't like it (relative to its prices anyway).

somewhereelse you seem to understand all. where do you live?

chicago?

by the way, I'd gladly live in the Park Laurel, 25 CPW, One CPW and TW Center, since it is the location I think is key. Make no confusion about it.

If I had to live in:

1) Park Laurel - maybe.
2) 25 CPW - yep, with an outdoor terrace please (large).
3) 1 CPW - no thanks, don't want to live in gold-glassed yucky towers.
4) TWC - no thanks, don't want to live on top of a shopping mall.

The Sofia on W 61st is a great prewar condo there

Don't love the Sofia. Not a purpose-built prewar residence and it makes a diff.

Not to mention one of the biggest concentrations of top restaurants is of the parallel version of columbus circle, the 50s bleeding into 60s on the east side (call it north midtown, or plaza district)

Daniel is a perennial top 5 and technically on the UES, the thing park ave cafe because (seasons?) is up there, jojo, gino's... hitting the 50s gives you lecirque, the non-luger's steakhouse kings, a couple of BLTs, aquavit, the original PJ clark's. I'm sure I'm missing a bunch, don't have a zagats or michelin handy. Thats a particularly awesome spot for higher-end dining, possibly the most concentrated in the city.

And I always liked the less name stuff, but there is some fantastic stuff as you go up lex and mad... its just not the kind of stuff that usually gets talked about out of neighborhood.

took a while, so wasn't clear, above post was in response to kspeak's
"I think the UES has some great little places. They aren't trendy in the way the downtown restaurants are."

i think you hit it, UES has always had great places that just aren't talked about by the hip set (and thank god).

I bet if you saw one of the nicer units in the Sofia (there all different since it was a warehouse) you would enjoy the solid construction and casement windows. If seen some great units there and some I'd rather not live in.

It's just okay. Not terrible, PMG. Certainly better than most 60s-70s-80s construction.

Just okay? Take a look at the outside of the Sofia, and tell me it is not a stunning prewar building that stands out in every way. No it wasn't built residential, but neither were a lot of luxury loft buildings in Tribeca that are rightfully coveted by wealthy people today.

PMG: for almost 8 years, I saw it every day, more than once a day. I wouldn't call it a "stunning prewar building that stands out in every way". Sorry! I do like the two terraced units, but I can't see how you're elevating it to coveted and stunning.

Ever run up RSD on a glorious spring day?

Or CPW or look at the glories of upper 80s/WEA. Some beautiful buildings. Maybe hard to appreciate because they're nestled among equal neighbors unlike the Sofia. And I don't like the overly small elevators.

I actually like 15 CPW, haven't been inside, but I think it's a beautiful conversion from the photos. That said my style tends towards the well-update prewars instead of the glassy box towers (am looking forward to seeing how THOSE look in ten years ... ughh ...).

But at $3000 psf minimum??? No way. I get it if you have money to burn, and I get the prestige stamp and privacy stuff. But I have to think in 10 years people will forget about the prestige stamp a little bit - they'll be some other "hot" building, at least whenever the next building cycle is - then it will be just another luxury building going at whatever prices they go for then. The premium to other luxury buildings won't last, I don't think. I guess if you're A-Rod, who cares though.

Besides - if I saw a 15 CPW address - I would think the same thing I do when I see a yellow ferrari. Small ....

I like and hate 15CPW. Kinda pissed because that would have been a good flip.

Lower Fifth Avenue in the teens, hands down.

You're literally steps away from Greenwich Village, Chelsea, and the Union Square area. You're a 15-minute walk straight into the heart of Midtown. East or West? Just turn your head! You're already on the dividing line!

In my opinion, it's really the most convenient location in the city.

nyc10023, I live on RSD, surrounded by beautiful prewar buildings, many of which I admire. They just cant afford to build with the attention to architectural detail like they did a century ago. But its a purely residential hood. In terms of entertainment and all around access, I like the Columbus Circle area

Are you kidding, Matt? It's a big agglomeration of light-industry factories and wholesale showrooms.

I lived on 19th & 5th for a year - didn't like it, at least not for the price. You're a 10-15 minute walk from a lot, I grant, but near nothing. Grocery stores, dry cleaners, neighborhood type restaurants are lacking ... great when you need to buy furniture but that's not an everyday need.

"They just cant afford to build with the attention to architectural detail like they did a century ago."

You got THAT right.

So sad that the best we can get these days are dreadful glass curtain walled squares and rectangles.

"I actually like 15 CPW, haven't been inside, but I think it's a beautiful conversion from the photos. "

Its not a conversion. Thats sort of the pitch... its "new prewar"

"But at $3000 psf minimum??? No way. I get it if you have money to burn, and I get the prestige stamp and privacy stuff. But I have to think in 10 years people will forget about the prestige stamp a little bit - they'll be some other "hot" building"

Not so sure about that... "hot" might fade a bit, but you only need hot to sell everything in the first place. Stuff then doesn't turn over as much.

TWC still turns over well, way after it was hot. Or something like 740 park. And especially since 15CPW is built to be "classic"... I don't really think this is an issue.

kspeak, I'm with you. I like that area, but it has some major drawbacks. Too far south, and you're in the dorm. A little further up, and you're just off union square and the craziness, more of a shopping destination.

Its very pretty and I still like it, but I would not put it at the top of any list.

> You're literally steps away from Greenwich Village, Chelsea, and the Union Square area.

If the draw is being near great neighborhoods, doesn't that infer that those neighborhoods would be superior?

"Lower Fifth Avenue in the teens, hands down."

Matt, I finally agree with you on something. But I have to say, it makes it very perplexing that you constantly disparage Williamsburg when it's literally 5-10 mins from here, yet you live in the 170s.

In fairness to matt, there's a big difference between 10 minutes on the subway and 10 minutes of walking. I still don't love that area 5th in the teens, though.

It all comes down to kids vs. no kids - despite the popularity of downtown I still don't think the park access of downtown competes with Central Park, not to mention the variety of schools (public and private) - but I think with kids, prime UES or UWS is still the best, West Village's and Tribeca's popularity not withstanding.

Single - I'd go East Village probably somewhere not too far from the Bowery, a few blocks above Houston. Great restaurants, youngish vibe, nightlife, close to the LES, NoLita, etc.

DINK - West Village - A little older crowd than East, more high end boutiques, great restaurants as well, slightly better infrastructure than the East Village in terms of grocery stores, dry cleaners, etc (in the East Village these things are clustured around 14th street and a little bit Houston). And you're close to the shopping/retail. Here I'd go either in the 5th or 6th street avenue area, or west of Hudson. Only problem is it's gettting touristy ...

Long Island City.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/20656-long-island-city

I'm surprised nobody's said the Silk Stocking District yet.

"It all comes down to kids vs. no kids - despite the popularity of downtown I still don't think the park access of downtown competes with Central Park, not to mention the variety of schools (public and private) - but I think with kids, prime UES or UWS is still the best, West Village's and Tribeca's popularity not withstanding."

With you again, although UES does have the serious edge over UWS there.

"Single - I'd go East Village probably somewhere not too far from the Bowery, a few blocks above Houston. Great restaurants, youngish vibe, nightlife, close to the LES, NoLita, etc."

I think age of single also matters (say young 20s vs low 30s) and also male vs. female... but I think you are right for younger.

"DINK - West Village - A little older crowd than East, more high end boutiques, great restaurants as well, slightly better infrastructure than the East Village in terms of grocery stores, dry cleaners, etc (in the East Village these things are clustured around 14th street and a little bit Houston). And you're close to the shopping/retail. Here I'd go either in the 5th or 6th street avenue area, or west of Hudson. Only problem is it's gettting touristy ..."

Good recap. Stinks about the touristy angle, also, a lot of the what made it very cool - local food shops - has starting falling away with the high rents and lack of people who cook anymore. Its the downside of general neighborhood improvement, but I think its something slowly getting lost as well. It was always one of the best neighborhoods in the city for saturday "pick up some stuff" mornings...and now you're bumping into the tour buses.

I'll actually throw in for the no name or too many name 5th to 7th or 8th aves between 15 and 26, or say the neighborhoods between US and MSP. Chelsea, Flatiron, Mad. Square, who the hell knows anymore. But obviously has the "access" thing to other places, plus those blocks actually have some of the variety NYC used to be known for. Clubs on the same blocks as flowers and good restaurants and whatever. And you can ramp up or ramp down how "interesting" you want it by going further north or south.

> I'm surprised nobody's said the Silk Stocking District yet

Would you believe I thought Miami when you said that?

"Matt, I finally agree with you on something. But I have to say, it makes it very perplexing that you constantly disparage Williamsburg when it's literally 5-10 mins from here, yet you live in the 170s."

5 to 10 minutes on the subway ... when it finally comes, after waiting (at best) 5-10 minutes ... and often, after you've had to walk 5-to-10 minutes to GET to that subway in the first place.

Let's not kid ourselves. I lived in Williamsburg. At best, you're 30 minutes from the Union Square area, door to door. And you're totally held hostage by the "L" train -- when it's running, it's fine. When it's not running, you are stranded. Literally. It sucks having NO other subway options (at least no other subway options that are inside a 30-minute hike, depending on where you live, like to the J/M/Z).

And that is, of course, assuming that your destination is in the 14th Street corridor. Anywhere else in the city is a transfer to ANOTHER train ... another 5-10 minute wait ... another 5-10-20 minutes or longer on the second train. So now we're talking the better part of an hour to get to popular workplace destinations like Rockefeller Center, Lincoln Center, Midtown East, or even Downtown.

I hated that living in Williamsburg meant I was always, at minimum, TWO trains away from wherever I wanted to go in Manhattan (or elsewhere into Brooklyn, for that matter). 45 minutes was my MINIMUM time to get anywhere.

At least up in the West 170s, I'm ONE train -- and an express train at that -- away from virtually any place I need to go. 20 minutes to Columbus Circle. 25 minutes to Chelsea.

"20 minutes to Columbus Circle."
... only midday. At morning rush hour, the tracks are so backed up that it's slower than the local. After evening rush hour, it goes all-local, meaning you're 5,837 stops and several days from 14th Street.

I wouldn't be surprised if they cut weekend express A service altogether in the next round of budget cuts.

falcogold: You amuse me more and more; everyday.

"Would you believe I thought Miami when you said that?" Why? I don't get the reference. Do they also have an area that was known by that name? I know there is/was one in Kalamazoo or Walla Walla.

I'm also fond of the phrase "the carriage trade", but all those sidewalk-hoggers in so many NY neighborhoods today take the fun out of that concept.

"At least up in the West 170s, I'm ONE train -- and an express train at that -- away from virtually any place I need to go. 20 minutes to Columbus Circle. 25 minutes to Chelsea."

Got a good friend on 170. There is definite smoe truth to this, but...
you have to make sure your spots are on the express stops.

And when the express 'aint running express, major pain in ass. Or waiting 45 minutes for a train drunk on Saturday night.

"Would you believe I thought Miami when you said that?"

Silk Stalkings... late note TV show about 10 years ago with a REALLY hot jewish chick and some dude who ended up on melrose place.

It was big pop culture back then... and very all about south beach.

"... only midday. At morning rush hour, the tracks are so backed up that it's slower than the local. After evening rush hour, it goes all-local, meaning you're 5,837 stops and several days from 14th Street."

alan beat me too it.

Similar logic can also work for like the path train... or LIRR from Great Neck or something. But it never quite works out ideally.

Oh, you mean "Bridget Loves Bernie", only backwards.

Whatever happened to Riverside Drive?

"Let's not kid ourselves. I lived in Williamsburg. At best, you're 30 minutes from the Union Square area, door to door. And you're totally held hostage by the "L" train -- when it's running, it's fine. When it's not running, you are stranded."

It depends where you live in Williamsburg I suppose, but I take 30 mins door to door (that is, my apartment door to my office building in the financial). You exaggerate quite a bit on the wait and the breakdowns - it used to be bad (probably when you lived there), but most times the average wait for an L at Bedford is 2-3 mins. 15 mins door to door to Union Sq is more like it if you're close enough to the Bedford stop.

"At least up in the West 170s, I'm ONE train -- and an express train at that -- away from virtually any place I need to go. 20 minutes to Columbus Circle. 25 minutes to Chelsea."

Love how you factor in exaggerated wait times on the L, but do the opposite for the A. I used to take it daily up to 168th. It's a pretty miserable trek to have to do that often. Door-to-door, I'd bank at least 45 to Chelsea, and at least an hour if going to Soho or much of the village. Not fun.