Stuy Town desperate for Renters?

they did this last year and the year before if I recall. just trying to get as many of the empty apartments filled during the summer as possible.

We are entering a season period where land lords typically have more pricing power with new workers entering the market after completing college, graduate studies or law school. Valid point but not a good sign for land lord.

Regargless of whether you think rents are rising or falling, this is an exceptional case of terrible publicity.

I agree, Stuy Town is not representative of the Manhattan rental market.

do you think peopel coming out of school are really going to care what nabe they live in or will $$ be the largest factor ? id have to say that people are going to opt to save $$ at first. place like this, fidi, and columbus circle will all weigh heavily on the rental market.

Well of course, younger Americans these days have higher expectations than half a generation ago and even NYC is a different place than 15 years ago in terms of what people expect for niceness and safety and such. So most people aren't running to live in the projects even if they are cheap to live in and the ywould rather live in nicer places and places that they aren't ashamed of and such. I actually think that some places even worse than the projects here are somehow more edgy like Williamsburg or walkups on the Upper East Side because at least they don't have the outside appearance of a big project.
Either way except for the rent stabilized people who have big bargains, most of the people who do live here will be temporary and outgrow it. Such is New York, constant change and improvement.

RS it epitomizes a large segment of the market. You're an idiot, again.

just think about it. they can't get rid of apartments that are now RS that used to rent for 50-100% more during the summer months.

When good apartments are marked down rent stabilized projects lose their attraction. Stuy-Town will have an easier time renting after the rental market has recovered.

News of vacant units sitting will not facilitate any of the buy-outs being proposed.

have you ever set foot in one of the renovated apts here? you don't have an f'ng clue.

the rental market may not "recover" for a very long time, depending on demographics. anything will rent or sell, at the right price.

I'm sure they do a very nice job waxing or replacing the parquet floor, applying a new coat of paint and ensuring the installed appliances are functioning. But in a depressed rental market, this does not compete with units which come with a washer/dryer, better proximity to transportation and amenities like doormen, staffed gyms, etc.

As far as pricing goes, agree and disagree. Market demand is not elastic at all points and at a certain point becomes unresponsive to price cuts.

when the 2/2s were $2750 in 2004 they were full.

once again, you're an idiot.

Flatbush Gardens does a nice job of renovating units too. Its fairly standard for any out of date apartment. The floor gets redone and if very old bathroom fixtures are replaced with Kohler basics. Same goes for kitchen which gets new ceramic flooring, formica couner-tops and if necessary standard G.E. appliances.

and let's just say you're correct, and that they are unable to rent even after default. what do you think that says about the state of the housing market here generally? hmmm?

i'll be happy to concede that.

In 2004 luxury housing was out of reach. People settled but were not happy. In today's market you can rent someone's mistaken condo purchase at significant discounts to "2004" levels and get Subzero frig, Miele dishwasher yada yada yada. It's not price but value.

you really ARE proving you haven't been in these apartments.

go roast in your glass box.

you don't get it. people aren't here for LUXURY housing or trump's toupee.

we ARE happy with nice, reasonably priced stable housing. you can't rent a 2 bedroom unit with a subzero for $3000. people WEREN'T happy when they raised the rents to $6000. and they're still overpricing the units, so they aren't moving. it's simple. they'll clear when the price is low enough, and happily, since they're already defaulting and the units are now worth less than they were in 2000, they'll be able to lower the prices as low as it takes. but their debtors won't allow that to happen overnight.

you really need to read a basic economics textbook and quit reading zerohedge.

i think it's great that they can't rent. lower the value on the complex as much as possible. just think of what i might be able to buy my unit for.

again, if you are correct, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE HOUSING MARKET? that just a few years ago they were charging almost $6000 for a 2/2 and now they can't get $3800? is it supply, as you say? is it demand, as you say?

if you're correct i think you're absolutely f'd in terms of the value of your condo. cheers.

And when that low priced housing proves unsatisfactory it begins getting compared to similar priced but better accommodations in Queens, Long Island and New Jersey.

you're droll. and then it is worth less and it costs less. i'm all for it. give me 1995 prices. i'm certainly not moving to LIC, nor are most of my neighbors. let the NYU kids go elsewehere.

and yes, that would be great. make it very unattractive to investors. the tenants will be a shoe-in if nobody else wants it.

here's to housing deflation!

And the tenants will buy with what financing? Or is his supposed to be a government hand-out?

RS, people here obviously aren't looking for "status" despite TS's lame recent efforts. we don't care that you look down your bulbous nose at us. unlike the upstarts in LIC or Jersey we never bought into the notion that this is "luxury."

it's simply nice enough. it has its pros, a lovely setting, high ceilings, good light. i'll take it over a white brick coop building any day. they did nice renovations, and the bedrooms aren't 10' x 10' like many of the "luxury" options. the cons are the location and transportation, but much of the complex is within a quick stroll to the east village, which is a great location.

so your arguments are silly. the tenants never, obviously, claimed to be looking for luxury. we're clearly not status snobs. that was TS. and the people who bought on RSB.

financing? you mean leverage? like TS?

actually, since almost all of the senior debt is held by the GSE's we'd be paying the taxpayers at the end of the day.

a loan is not a handout, unless it isn't repaid. i guess TS got a handout from calpers and the florida pension system, gov't entities that lent them money expecting a return. i think we'd likely be a better underwriting choice.

oh, i forgot, underwriting isn't your strong suit.

Actually, I know quite a few people in LIC who are happy they got out of Stuytown.

your point is? of course. it's movement. but the majority of renters here won't be moving to LIC or jersey, they'll be carried out in body bags. hopefully i won't be one of them, but it wouldn't be the worst fate.

the NYU kids and the new grads can be expected to move along. many of them think it's a good thing to buy.

i know a couple of families with four generations currently living here (great grandma, grandma, mom, kids). and a lot with three. it's weird. you'd think the kids would go anywhere but here, but they return.

Disagree, A subisidized loan is a hand-out.

Who says it needs to be subsidized? When are you going to be paying your full real estate tax amount?

LICComment= LIC owner/sucker -- what you've done makes it hard to listen to what you say

newtown creek fumes?? if only there'd been government involved when the killed the creek, and when they failed to clean it up prior to your purchase--nice bed you make for yourself--stinky as it may be

To me, the advantages of PCV/ST are location, and relative luxury. Location is convenient to leisure/shopping in the East Village and Union Square; and to offices (walkable in many cases) in midtown. Relative luxury means being several notches up from the dark walkup tenements that dominate the EV and many other downtown neighborhoods. I don't think many people looking at PCV/ST view new-construction "luxury" as the alternative, so the lack of those amenities isn't rued in quite the same way. But I suspect the future, not matter what path it takes, holds some gesture towards concierge/package handling.

There already is a concierge service. A gym. A playroom for the kiddums. A screening room. Etc. They are fee based. The gym is on 20th street near the center. On 23rd street is the asser levy rec center with indoor and outdoor pools. we have six playgrounds, on-site zip cars, garages, available storage units, basketball and tennis courts, volleyball, a farmers market, free sports programs for the kids, exercise programs for the elderly, etc. with the scale being this large it isn't hard to provide the amenities.

I think they got rid of the kids Halloween party last year, though. times are tough for TS.

Alan,.agreed. I know that when I was looking for a place in the late 70s and early 80s the wait list for Sty Town was so long I'd be moving in about now. And that was when they didn't have air conditioning (actually I grew up with a/c until High School, something my younger friends find amazing). People did get in but only those with "special connections", usually through the Fire Department (imagine thinking that fire fighters make good neighbors!) As the crime problem increased in the 80s and early 90s, there was somewhat of a decline in the desirability of Sty Town, especially those buildings bordering Avenue C as did happen (a guy I worked with was mugged when he was on crutches..pretty low no?). But I don't think even then you could walk in and rent an apartment.

I was recently in a renovated apartment in PVC, WOW, it was huge, brilliantly light and look nothing at all like the commercials for Flatbush Gardens. There is no fixing the distance to the subway but otherwise, if I was looking for a 2/2 rental..and you tell me this is available for the $3k range...amazing. Not to mention the fact that the grounds are beautiful, kids can "go outside and play" , it is a wonderful mix of ages from infant to most aged and rare for Manhattan, even appears to be a racially diverse neighborhood. Especially if I had kids and wanted to be in the city, this would definitely be an option I would consider (I assume PVC is PS 40 which is an excellent school, don't know about Sty Town).

Those muggers were took a very unprofessional risk. Used correctly, crutches can be deadly weapons. I hope the muggers had guns, because nothing else can take a crutch-wielding opponent down. Maybe, I'll concede, the nuclear option they're considering to restore the environment in the Gulf of Mexico.

" I actually think that some places even worse than the projects here are somehow more edgy like... walkups on the Upper East Side because at least they don't have the outside appearance of a big project."

Yes, I heard there are gang shootings in all the upper east side walkups.

"There is no fixing the distance to the subway but otherwise, if I was looking for a 2/2 rental..and you tell me this is available for the $3k range...amazing."

one bedrooms started at $2800 in ST at one point, now TWO beds are $3k in PCV (bigger apartments).

Have prices absolutely tanked?

Delete "were" at the start of my last post.

I wonder how the price shakes out between the larger apartments of PCV vs. the closer proximity of ST to EV, which presumably is a bigger draw than the very nice but more staid area up near PCV. But not so much that I'm going to try to find out on my own.

prices for the larger apartments that are being released are listed as starting at $3800. my rent is significantly less, and i know that there are others that would be less than mine using the mathematical formula they have to calculate the new RS rents. i suspect they are holding back the cheapest units or using them to entice the real RS folks to give up their old apartments for renovated ones.

prices have indeed tanked. it's remarkable they can't fill them even as RS units. but get them back down to the 2004 level and i bet they'd fill up fairly quickly. an additional reason for their difficulties is that the city cracked down on the illegal wall situation. i've had the building inspect my apartment twice in the last year and a half to make sure there are no illegal walls, and they give almost no notice of the inspections. i am fairly certain the city makes them do so. it has made the complex much less attractive to the groups who used to put four people in the one bedroom and up to six in the two bedroom, so on a per person basis it has actually become more expensive for many of the units. thankfully.

okay, i was wrong, they've upped the pricing. sounds like it's time to pay a visit to a judge. these numbers don't sound feasible to me, if they're pricing according to the terms of the court ruling.

one beds at ST start at $2668, two at $3612; PCV is $3268 and $4496.

no wonder they're not renting.

Actually Alan my colleague was, beset by a group of kids (boys and girls) and managed to get his crutches which put him on the ground (if I recall his injury was pretty serious--Achilles? ACL? He got it playing basketball, another reason not to exercise). Ironically, the victim here was a conservative with flair dressed 30something African American man who made his living promoting rap artists, publishing a magazine and working with corporate PR to help improve the image of rap music and the hip hop lifestyle. Think this particularly cruel group of muggers (although maybe not since the Sty Town area also provides more than a fair opportunity to mug 85 year old ladies...but my friend had a cooler watch) preferred listening to Stone Temple Pilots, GNR or perhaps Shania Twain.

Oh btw, I was way off guestimating current PVC prcing. I thought is was much cheaper. Still given the on site play areas ans size of apartment and school zoning, there are worse deals for families especially if the come down from the levels AR quoted.

it looks as though they're trying to rent the new units at above-RS rates, unless they saved for the summer rental season all the units that have had multiple vacancies post-renovation. if that's true, they've got a hell of a lot of units and the rents should tank in september.

AR...you made my day...to everyone who keeps putting down Stuytown..the rooms are huge and the location is okay if the rents get lower it will be a terrific to live.

AR, the "owners" of ST are not about to tank the rents when they are looking to restructure / sell the place. You may get a chance to buy your unit at for a relative bargain, but they are not going to "tank" the rents before they negotiate the insider prices.

pmg, it depends. as an investor would you want to see extremely high vacancy rates? it's the total rental roll. and as i've said before, the total rental roll was higher when met life sold the place than when TS threw in the towel.

i'd say their approach didn't work so well, no?

i'm not assuming, btw, that this will indeed go to the tenants. it makes a lot of sense, but when has that ever guaranteed an outcome.

There approach has been a disaster, which will result in uneven management, vacancies etc., but also perhaps a good deal with an insider price, hopefully.

The legal actions preventing Stuyvesant Town from becoming market rate will prevent tenants from buying their apartments as individuals. From what I gather the association is attempting to buy the complex for the purposes of renting it out, not creating a lottery system or get rich quick scheme for individual renters....

As usual you are wrong. It won't be a get rich quick scheme because the units will likely be impossible to re-sell for years. I'm on the fence as to whether or not I'd be willing. But I got a survey not long ago from the association which asked if I'd be interested in buying. Quit talking about things you know nothing about.

Besides, according to your dim-witted logic they won't be able to rent them all at any price. Might as well sell some and create a reserve fund. It's kind of cute to see how much you'd like the people here be miserable.

I'm on the fence as to whether or not I'd be willing

LOL, Playing hard to get to an offer that has not been made

Come on, be honest. It's thrilling for you that someone is actually taking to you.

I'm not surprised that the concept of the hypothetical is too nuanced for you to grasp. Any comments about all of the misinformation you've been spewing here? or just a useless diversionary comment?

Hypothetically speculating the above with your mouth agape, no doubt.....

but no worries, as Mamet wrote....

"We must never forget that we are human, and as humans we dream, and when we dream we dream of money"

Are you just pretentious or completely full of shit or more likely both?

Full of shit for sure

You know rs, you often have arguments that seem inconsistent and muddled. But never more so than when you have to try and rely on your own analysis and not youtubes and other links. this thread has been a total shitshow for you, revealing huge inconsistencies and a horrible lack of logic.

I have little idea what will be the outcome here. You have far less of an idea yet you opine freely. Cut the f'ng bullshit.

Dream of money? Like the lack of depreciation for your condo?

Are you comparing the economic return of a private transaction to that of a a renter benefiting from a government imposed rent subsidy? I don't know which will ultimately prove better as it depends on man factors, but it is an interesting comparison none the less and on many levels.

Why don't you actually say what you mean, you slimy pice of crap.

He's trying to look smart. Fail. Epic.

how's your abatement working out for you?

I would definitely think that the overall economy was far less injured by rs here than by the 4 or so billion dollars lost by the investors' greed and foolishness. if you want to think just monetarily.

marco_m
1 day ago
ignore this person
report abuse do you think peopel coming out of school are really going to care what nabe they live in or will $$ be the largest factor ? id have to say that people are going to opt to save $$ at first. place like this, fidi, and columbus circle will all weigh heavily on the rental market.

"do you think young people coming out of school are really going to care what nabe they live in"

that is pretty much all they care about.

but i thought you ahve been saying there are no new hires this year? so where are all of these kids going anyway? on welfare?

Or home to their parents

20000 jobs created in may. how many graduates?

Stuy Town is not allowing inflated walls..wonder how that will affect things. BTW...rents there have gone up from $2300 to $2600.

Rents were artificially low due to legal issues. The wall are a city wide.

i think you've nailed the issue.

I saw that article today in the Times about no temporary walls. Brings back memories. Actually I think one thing that it will do that was unmentioned was it will support the outer boros. The other thing, I hope, is that it will force some landlords in NYC to improve the quality of their properties, because if they can't attract 4 20 somethings to a 2 bedroom (or whatever), they'll have to focus on a more mature market who may be more demanding about the quality of the buildings and apartments.

Interestingly, I mentioned landlords making improvements, I think StuyTown was one of the landlords who was most aggressive about improving the quality of their spaces, so they may be ahead of the pack.

Actually I think one thing that it will do that was unmentioned was it will support the outer boros.

the age group and people we are talking are very opposed to the outer-boros. they value Manhattan for the boro and not the apartment size. If we're talking about 20 somethings. it's about being able to go to bars and hanging out after work.

True, but at some point the pocketbook will rule and bars in the outer boros can be filled, staying after work and taking the subway will be more frequent, etc.

I agree with both of you (Splaken/River)

-Yes, they want to live near hot spots (much more preferrable to being near work).
- They will live in what they can afford.

The ability to subdivide larger apartments has the effect of increasing supply to the crowd that can't afford that apartment to begin with. If the apartment is $4000, three residents would be at $1333 apiece (with utilities also split 3 ways) while two residents would be at $2000 apiece.

If changes have the effect of increasing the apt's price to a segment of the market the net effect is to reduce the demand for that apartment. That can only mean the net price of such 2BR's drops. The amount of the drop might be limited depending on how many apartments fit this category and how much the demand has been reduced.

"True, but at some point the pocketbook will rule and bars in the outer boros can be filled, staying after work and taking the subway will be more frequent, etc."

Yeah, if you couldn't get poor 20-somethings to move for financial reasons, you wouldn't have had the Brooklyn exodus.

True true. You could probably include Hoboken, Jersey City and LIC in that. While people may argue the value of those locations at current pricing (particularly LIC), there is no question that the prices in Manhattan have driven people, particularly young people, off the island.

AvUWS
about 9 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse I agree with both of you (Splaken/River)

-Yes, they want to live near hot spots (much more preferrable to being near work).
- They will live in what they can afford.

The ability to subdivide larger apartments has the effect of increasing supply to the crowd that can't afford that apartment to begin with. If the apartment is $4000, three residents would be at $1333 apiece (with utilities also split 3 ways) while two residents would be at $2000 apiece.

If changes have the effect of increasing the apt's price to a segment of the market the net effect is to reduce the demand for that apartment. That can only mean the net price of such 2BR's drops. The amount of the drop might be limited depending on how many apartments fit this category and how much the demand has been reduced.

this is completely counterintuitive. the ll's knowing that there are even fewer options, will raise the price of two bedrooms. in what economic model does one decrease the price of a valuable commodity?

BUT then WTF happens to ALL the 1bdrms that sit empty? And howz about all the flex 3s in bldgs like 145 w67th? and the 3bdrms that are converted into 4bdrms by parting the dining room? WTF jimnutz... when the does the third part of the equation ever change for YOU? you know, the fking asking price of "rentals"?

In your world, the rental price is FIXED and we gotta rob a bank, ask a parent, win the lotto, or get a better investment banking gig?

jimnutz conversation with his daughter "honey, don't learn to read, we'll send you to an illiterate school!"

We're all missing the point. Time to invest in futons!

I also love the assumption from some that jobs exist here to pay for those futons and fake walls.
Only for the nycmatts of the city.

w67thstreet
about 1 hour ago
ignore this person
report abuse BUT then WTF happens to ALL the 1bdrms that sit empty? And howz about all the flex 3s in bldgs like 145 w67th? and the 3bdrms that are converted into 4bdrms by parting the dining room? WTF jimnutz... when the does the third part of the equation ever change for YOU? you know, the fking asking price of "rentals"?

In your world, the rental price is FIXED and we gotta rob a bank, ask a parent, win the lotto, or get a better investment banking gig?

jimnutz conversation with his daughter "honey, don't learn to read, we'll send you to an illiterate school!"

you're right, i never thought about the hundreds of thousands of convertible three and four bedrooms throughout this city, and how this new legislation will probably bring the commerce in this city crashing to a halt....

"this is completely counterintuitive. the ll's knowing that there are even fewer options, will raise the price of two bedrooms. in what economic model does one decrease the price of a valuable commodity?"

Jim, how do you figure? AvUWS argues that existing demand for 2BRs is reduced, so prices drop. What's counterintuitive about that? Can you explain what you mean in more detail?

The assumption that the demand will be reduced. What are they all going to do, decide not to come live here? They'll either pay more for a two bed in a walk up or doorman, or rent studios$

Or, as I stronly suspect someome will bring a new product to the market that will both meet code and work for roomates.

Okay I just checked the rivergate site - so you cannot divide a 1 br - where you just put a wall up in the living room, however, you can legally divide the jr 4 which has a dining room - they are still marketing those as convertible 2 br 1.5/2 bth. I think if you don't block an exit you can still divide-- so L's will be legal if they have a window. That still takes a huge amount of conv 2s off the market as most of them are just generic 1brs

I didn't mean off the market. I meant off marketing them as conv 2s

"The assumption that the demand will be reduced. What are they all going to do, decide not to come live here? They'll either pay more for a two bed in a walk up or doorman, or rent studios$"

OK, so maybe in there there's a counterargument of "the 3 roomates in the $4000 2BR" will start going two-per, so they'll be demand for 1.5 times as many apartments. At some price, certainly. However, I don't think 20-somethings looking to live it up in Manhattan had much choice. If they could afford $2000 a head, they'd br on studios, no? Somewhere they can bring back the girls they meet at the bars...

"Or, as I stronly suspect someome will bring a new product to the market that will both meet code and work for roomates."

The product here would be the 700 sq ft 2BR. Given that those haven't been popular to build since about 1900, it probably no longer matches the needs of the people.

Perhaps more of these 200 sq ft studios?

Stuytown just changed their website for one bedrooms starting price is $2970..

Is that good or bad? Julia?

W67th...for them great, for me not so good...they were renting at $2375 six months ago.

someone must think they can get that.

Here is the way I see an ask price on NYC re.

The $3k rental would make the owner ecstatic. That allows the owner to buy little nick nacks, nice vacations and be financially 'happy.'. ...

Your job as a buyer/renter is NOT to make them happy, it's to make yourself ecstatic. Paying $2k would make you ecstatic, no? Somewhere between their ecstasy and your ecstasy a market will be made.

west67th...once again you have come up with a solution..but I decided if I'm going to spend $2500 i'm heading west..west side.

Wow Julia - that is insane for Stuytown . I guess they think people will want to rent there now with the hopes of getting an insider price on a coop - if not well there's a sucker born every minute

hi charley...it's crazy...i read somewhere they want to push it to $3100...are you seeing a lot of moving vans bringing people in?

no I see moving vans moving out - but I'm in PCV

oh or the last thing - they don't want people to move in because they want to sell the apartments for outside rates. I can totally see this

Julia just got time out kids and Peter Cooper advertised 1 brs for 3580 - net effective rent - ridiculous and 2 brs 4891

Unemployment is at an all time high and petercooper and stuytown keep raising their prices, someone is crazy!!

Don't know which apts these are -they are probably holding on to the cheaper inventory and only renting expensive apts.