Lying broker

They can play the "this was the information given to me" angle, and its your responsibility in signing contract with person. They aren't representing you.

shouldn't your main target be the lawyer who supposedly performed the due diligence? Isn't this the stuff you pay them for?

It's up to your lawyer (if not you) to catch in due dillengence.

Now if your really pissed or annoyed with a broker and want to give them some grief, you can notify them in writing of an error in one of their ads.
If their ad persists 1/2/3 weeks later uncorrected, submit a complaint with the NY RE board with proof of dates of complaint and continuing false ad afterwards.

I told the broker about it, as it was uncovered during due diligence, but he hasn't changed the ad. I was wondering why he hadn't changed his ad. So a broker has no liability? It's pretty much on the next preson to find out?

Actually check that, I don't see much of anything on the NYRE board as far as discipline.

Found this from a NYT article;

Q We would like to lodge a complaint against a real estate broker in New York City, but we’re not sure whom to complain to. We’ve been misinformed several different times, and we have e-mail records to prove it.

A Larry Sombke, a spokesman for the state’s Department of State, said that complaints should be sent to: Department of State, Division of Licensing Services, 123 Williams Street, New York, N.Y. 10038. They can also be filed online:

www.dos.state.ny.us/lcns/lcnscf.html

Thanks! I am going to send this guy an e-mail and give him a week to do the right thing. What a waste of time, now I understand why people hate on brokers.

That is fair...

suggested;

Dear Sir, I have notified you of such and such error in your listing. It has cost me time and expenses during my due dilligence and you have not corrected it after being notified of the error.
This negligence may cost several others the same if you do not immediately correct.
In one week's time, if this error remains uncorrected I will file a complaint with New York State, Division of Licensing Services.
This is your final warning.

I would send a letter to someone higher up the food chain at that specific branch of the agency or company.

Mahalia - one slightly off the topic suggestion: if you ever have to start a thread like this again, you can just call it "Broker". The current title is redundant.

You can sue the broker, if you reasonably relied on the broker's words. Due diligence does not mean that you need to uncover every hairline fracture or uncover that the walls emit invisible corrosive gases. Homes are sold with certain expectations of habitabilty the same way you expect brakes in a car to work when you purchase it. So if a broker has promised certain items, knowing they are false, the broker has actively engaged in fraud.

However, if you have discovered such problems and buy the property anyway, you are out of luck.

Hate to rain on your parade (no, I'm not a broker) but NY is a caveat emptor state, which means buyer beware. Bascially unless the information about the apartment is within the seller's exclusive knowledge, it's not actionable. Here if the deck is supposed to have a permit, preumably that fact is available from public records available equally to buyer and seller, so the buyer would likely be charged with knowledge. Didn't say it was fair, the law isn't always what you'd like. For more on caveat emptor have a look at http://www.highrisesociety.com/buying-co-op-or-condo/the-way-out-part-onethe-opposite-of-acceptance-is-rejection/

Caveat emptor is not a defense to fraud. If the broker knowingly misrepresented/lied and the seller reasonably relied on broker's misrepresentations/lies in regards to a material fact, you have a cause of action. A buyer is not without rights, even in a caveat emptor jurisdiction.

No one should be able to make a living from lying to your face.

Streeteasy always amazes me. I'm with sidelinesitter on the title BUT the following people are IDIOTS

Mahalia for thinking the broker is liable and for doing such shitty due diligence.
truthskr10 for encouraging someone to spend several weeks on this and wasting effort filing a meaningless complaint.
truthskr10 for that ultra stupid letter. If you are a lying broker and you get that letter, what would your reaction be??
PPPlayer for thinking he's a playa. Thinking that someone should hire a lawyer, and should expect to win. What a moron.
"reasonably relied on a broker's misrepresentation" in a caveat emptor state? How can any reliance be reasonable when the law says you have no reasonable right to rely? Haha, go hire a lawyer, keep NYC's economy going.

Lol, ootin you are no less than street trash and the less you speak, the better you will represent your family. One "P" for piano, piano player. I have no time for your street jargon "playa" and your nonsense when you know nothing of what you speak and lack common civility. You are now ignored.

Represent my family?

On a message board?

ootin, go take the test to pass for your sales rep license for the 20th time. corcoran has a spot for you...

Oh good, if I ever decide to change my career, I'll know that brokerage is open to me and that I can make money tricking idiots like ab11218 and PPlaya and Mahalia by simply lying because those idiots will do none of their own homework even though the law says they themselves are responsible for doing homework.

Just make sure you don't pick a career that requires reading comprehension, because you seem to have missed the whole point.

Perhaps I have.

When the person complaining hires a lawyer, did that person miss the point too? Will that person be able to get his money back that he spent on a lawyer?
Or that isn't the point?

Try again, read, I triple-dare you.
I know you won't read this, but for everyone else, it's always been a guilty pleasure when blowhards make complete fools of themselves. What is this called? Not schadenfreude, but ???

Oh really?
So what is your solution? Initiate the lawsuit? Or just say nice things so the OP FEELS good that he is right.

ps, I'm at a stage in my life that I only respond to quadruple dares. I moved beyond triple dares a few years ago.

Lol. Honestly, this is really tickling my funny bone. Nothing like a complete fool coming out swinging.

What is your position?

Will you one up me and quintuple dare me?

Come on maly.

Someone as intellectual and literate as you.

Maybe if you quintuple dare me, we can see who the real winner is here.

Or do you need better odds than that?

OP, are you in contract?

Most contracts have specific language stating the Purchaser is not relying on "Real Estate Broker's set-ups", etc.

'Most contracts have specific language stating the Purchaser is not relying on "Real Estate Broker's set-ups", etc.'

Fair disclosure: I know nothing about the subject at hand. However, here is why I decided to add my $0.02. My lease (and probably many leases) state that I agreed to give up my right to trial in a dispute with the landlord and will go only through arbitration. While talking to a real estate attorney on another matter, I brought up this clause. According to him, it is uneforceable. In other words, I (or any other tenant) am free to sue if there is a cause to do so. Going back to my earlier admission of knowing nothing: this situation may be worth checking with a professional. What I have seen so far is a lot of conjecture mixed in with personal insults. Consult a professional and you will know for sure.

For whatever it is worth, I am fully on Mahalia's side here. Caveat emptor or not it is disgusting to see the new lows to which brokers stoop to make a buck. They are leeches on the flesh of honest America. Nothing more.

Alsoo I support what truthseeker and his idea of the letter.

Just to add my 2 cents -
1. the broker probably was not fraudulent (just a jerk)
2. getting a lawyer is going to be a waste of time and money. (And I'm a lawyer - but not a RE lawyer.)
3. And just CYA - this is not a legal advice. If you want to get a real answer - call your lawyer.

Check out this thread:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/969-the-grand-madison

"maly
Just make sure you don't pick a career that requires reading comprehension, because you seem to have missed the whole point."

Precisely.

Ootin.....you got a ge ge ge geh good brain.

Wait...did I miss something? Didn't the OP say that this WAS discovered in due diligence? I see a few people (e.g. ootin, whatever the hell that is) accusing the OP of not doing his or her homework, but it sounds like they're missing the point. It sounds like the OP didn't buy the apartment precisely BECAUSE he or she caught this lie -- but now wants to know why the broker is allowed to keep making it to other buyers, and what happens if one of those buyers is fooled into actually buying the place. That's a fair question.

The ad says it's a "glorious deck," then it's a description of the deck. Can't sue over that. The ad says it's "your own private backyard" .. could be interpreted that it's something along the lines of Gramercy Park. Can't sue over that. If it's not in the contract, it's not yours. Read the contract.

I hate threads with redundant titles.

TheOtherBob, that's exactly how I read it as well, but it seems a lot of people misunderstood. It's actually a very interesting question, I wish the experts would weigh in: are there situations when a broker lies would be actionable? It seems that even if they know they are lying, even in writing, there is no repercussion. 30-years, is that true?

Not only that but many comments treat Mahalia's first and second post as saying the same thing as well.

First post was a "what if" you don't catch during due dilligence.
Second post was "I caught something" (not even confirming it was the same exact thing) during due dilligence, what should/can I do about it.

If you don't catch it during due diligence that's your own fault. That's the way it is.
If you catch something during due diligence you either use it as a bargaining chip or you walk.

Avery
Yes ....generally.
Like the example outlined in the first post, I'd have a hard time imagining an attorney not catching an illegal deck (no C/O).

But you can still make a complaint against an unscrupulous agent who now knows of an error and continues to market falsely.

What if an agent marketed this unit as 1000 square feet interior and 500 square feet exterior.
You go into contract and during due dilligence you discover the condo declaration says 600 sq ft interior 300 square feet exterior.
You've gone through considerable expense and now giving benefit of the doubt to the agent that it was an accidental error, the agent continues to market the property at the same original ad size after your cancelled contract.
Shouldn't a governing body discipline this agent? What if this agent has a buddy who is collecting a mortgage application fee on every prospective buyer?

Avery makes a really good point -- we're assuming for hypothetical purposes that there was an actual "lie," but it could instead just be vague language that was misinterpreted. If there is a cause of action, that would make any case significantly harder to prove.

@truthskr10 Agree. Not sure if it will ever happen in NYC, but it would be nice if there was a better system in place to encourage broker accountability.

All salespeople are in the business of lying, right?

"it would be nice if there was a better system in place to encourage broker accountability."

And we all agree. In this instance "What if an agent marketed this unit as 1000 square feet interior and 500 square feet exterior.
You go into contract and during due diligence you discover the condo declaration says 600 sq ft interior 300 square feet exterior. "

the accountability governing body is the National Institute of Standards and Technology under the US Department of Commerce. They have a pretty good standard on measurements. Most people even have a ruler or a tape measure generally within less than 0.1% tolerance from the NISTs standards. So they can go to the apartment with the tape measure and MEASURE THE FUCKING APARTMENT SO THEY DON'T GET DUPED BY THE LYING BROKER.

Idiots. Go picket outside of the Weather Channel.

Interesting! So there is no lie too big or too small that can affect a broker. It puts the broker's reliability in perspective.

I'm always in awe about how so many of these conversations end up to be a war of words and attitudes between different contributors. Why do so many see this as a place to vent their anger toward the world and not stick to a professional, efficient discussion? Why do you assume that the broker was lying to you? Real Estate is the most regulated industry in this country. Agents go to jail for mistruths and believe me, the state has numerous unsuspecting investigators in the field making sure they catch the scumbag agents. The state charges them with a crime, takes their license away, fines the Broker of Record with very heavy fines, and throws deserving agents in jail. And, obviously most on posting here may not believe this but there are very few scumbag agents out there! As in everything, it takes a few to give the rest a bad name. Those of us that work damn hard on behalf of our clients want the dishonest agents out of the business. We want them to have their licenses taken away and those that deserve it, to be thrown in jail. 99.999% of agents take the repetitive state mandated ethics classes with open minds and practice our real estate ethics code with pride. We are the ones that report agents that practice illegaly and are unethical. Due diligence is the responsibility of the buyer/seller, attorneys and the agents. It is called "Team Effort". I'm very sorry if you have had a rotten experience with an agent that is less than honest! You should report him/her to the state and to their Broker of Record. However, just make sure you have asked all of the questions necessary and get a clear answer to discover all of the actual facts. If you feel you have them, then deliver your message to the Broker or DOS in a professional and calm manner. Show respect of others in trying to accomplish your goals. You will be surprised at how much respect you will get in return, leading you to your resolve. If you go in screaming and don't have the facts, why would anyone want to help you discover the truth and try to make it right for you? Good luck! I'm really sorry you are involved with this situation!

"99.999% of agents take the repetitive state mandated ethics classes with open minds and practice our real estate ethics code with pride."

I'll take the under on 99.999%

"99.999% of agents take the repetitive state mandated ethics classes with open minds and practice our real estate ethics code with pride."

Wow you really picked that out of thin air. I think you have it the wrong way round.

In which state do real estate agents go to jail for mistruths? Has it ever happened?

Mistruth. Not even a lie
Which prosecutor is going to get that great case?
What kind of prison should be holding the horrible offenders?

Who told you the deck is worthless? Is the municipality demanding that it be removed? Highly, highly unlikely.

There is a process for handling any addition that was put in without proper permits, Mahalia, including bathrooms, kitchens, etc. etc. Process varies somewhat from place to place, but the upshot is that the seller will pay for the permit (could be as little as $100, up to perhaps a few hundred or thousand) and the deal goes forward. For a deck, however, this should be trivial.

If they added illegal wiring for lighting, fountains, etc., on the deck, or built an unsafe deck prone to collapse and injuring people, then the seller could be in for much more difficulty. Also, if they violated set back ordinances, then they are going to have to make the deck smaller. All of this is repairable and could get a permit, though.

And none of this is the buyer's problem. It's the seller's problem, and the seller's liability.

"Glorious" is puffery and brokers are discouraged from using puffery, but you seem sophisticated enough to recognize it when you see it.

Regarding the shared garden: Often it takes a real attorney, or a sharp paralegal, to determine a question like this.

If the property has been owned for decades by the owner, or especially has been in the family for a generation or two, the owner may honestly think the garden is private. Nobody knows any different until an expert does the research.

You say you told the broker this information, and the ad went unchanged. I personally would never take a buyer's word that contradicted my seller's word. I would need to speak directly to the attorney involved. This is especially true because the details of the "shared" garden arrangement are *vital* to know, and the attorney will have the details.

Everyone needs to remember that the broker owes her or his fiduciary responsibility to the client. Unless and until there is a compelling reason to do otherwise--misrepresentation, or illegal statements the seller may want--the broker must do what the client tells the broker to do, and to write in an ad what the seller/client wants. This is what the word "fiduciary" means.

Most supposed "lies" by brokers are brokers doing what the seller wants, and it turns out the seller was misinformed or is making an honest mistake.

The most common honest mistake by sellers I see, by far, is when a seller tells me the square footage of the apartment is X (always a number that hardly matches usable living space) when official city records clearly state it is Y. Without getting into a square foot discussion, I insist that we use city record data because I feel that protects us from disgruntled buyers. If a seller wouldn't agree to do this, I just wouldn't take the listing, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't likely.

Karla Harby, VP
Charles Rutenberg Realty
kharby@crrnyc.com