Large Apartments Are the Rage

Eeeny-weeny fraction of the market.

size does matter.....

1) 1000 sq/ft kitchen? wtf??

2) pls forward article to dept of ed.

article reported the wrong address; it's 255 (not 225) E 74

Instead of coming up with all these anecdotal examples of why 'large apartments are the rage' recently, it could could really be summarized as, "large apartments prices dropped by a third, therefore sales went up." Is that really news?

"Eeeny-weeny fraction of the market."

18% doesn't sound so eeeny-weeny to me - from the article:

"Meanwhile, the market share for three- and four-bedrooms rose from 10 percent to a high of 19 percent in the third quarter of 2009 and is now at 18 percent, according to Jonathan J. Miller, the president of the appraisal firm Miller Samuel and the author of Elliman%u2019s market reports"

Personally, I would feel claustrophobic in any apartment less than 4,000 square ft.

Jsmith: ah, math, it's so hard. Think about it. What does 18% mean in the context of the "market"? If 1 large apt sells vs. 6 one-bedrooms, the fact that by value large apts are "50%" of the market is not a meaningful statistic to me.

BTW, the male half of the 1000-sqft-kitchen-apt has a cosmetic dermatology clinic in Bk. Hmm.

I think the stats in the article were percentages of types of units sold, not based on dollar amount.

This is interesting: "More than 1,200 three- and four-bedroom units sold in 2009, nearly double the 670 that sold in 2008 and significantly more than the 830 that sold in 2007."

Article brushes upon an important point which would have turned this away from being a marketing piece for some new developments into something more meaningful... Are larger Condos(three or more bedrooms) competitive with homes in Westchester or Greenwich,etc? When you think of the added upkeep of an affluent home in Greenwich or Westchester, the added commute time and time away from the kids, these units arguably provide value for this market segment. With crime low in Manhattan and the gyms, pools , playrooms and concierge services these buildings provide its not hard to understand why more families are staying in Manhattan to raise families.

What is crazy is that a family of 4 making $1M a year would have to put nearly half of their post tax income towards owning the LOWER end of these 3-4 bedroom apartments.

I am sorry, but that is completely ridiculous...

I agree with Miette, the rise of 3 and 4 bedroom sales is telling and contradicts the myth that the market is only strong in the sum $1M arena. Large families moving back to the city???? Now if that doesn't fly in the face of the accepted logic.

That same family could easily spend $3,000,000 in Westchester and taxes that may very well be higher than the NYC comparison apartment.

nyc10023, I agree math (and reading) is hard - read the article again - this time S L O W L Y... Miette can show you the error of your ways..

Good point. By dollar volume they are clearly what is selling. But I don't see the above $3,000,000 mark as being that strong. 1800-2200 square feet meets most people's needs.

Do people really believe the samples given in the article are typical and represent the market? Large families moving back based on these examples? Better go out and buy your large apt today before it's all gone!

Interesting how the issue of schools isn't even raised. Granted I believe the buildings discussed in the article, Superior Ink, Brompton etc are zoned for top rated schools, at least for K-5. Is the assumption that jhs/hs will take care of itself when the time comes? Or that a family that pays $3-4MM+ for an apartment isn't going to phased by $20K/year per child for private school? (Btw, I hear that it can be hard to get into private school. What happens if your child isn't admitted? Or is that really not an issue if you have enough $$$?)

Tuition is above 30 k.

Jsmith: that was but one example of how stats can be misleading. What does it mean when 18% of the apts sold (by number) are 3+brs but a significantly smaller number of apts (co-ops and condos) are 3+brs? Does the market consist solely of the flavor du jour that is selling because of scarcity or does the market consist of all individually owned apts?

Lizyak: Governesses and tutors. Edith Wharton did not go to school.

So what you are saying 10023 is that upper crust (or at least upper tax bracket) NYC has its own version of home schooling? And people are choosing to raise their kids here because of "diversity"?

No, what I'm saying is that if one can afford 3m+ apts, that one will figure out a way to school the kids. So not to worry about these suburbanite families in Manhattan. A heck of a lot of people are raising their kids here because of convenience and superficial diversity (don't get me started). People of my generation, here and abroad, who were raised in suburbs have a very negative impression of suburbs. I can't think of many who voluntarily moved to the suburbs if they had jobs in the city.

When looking at costs salaries. remember there are 30 somethings buying one bedrooms, empty nesters who have the equity from a house they have sold, people struggling tow raise two kids and a dog in a two bedroom apartment apartment. All three have very different incomes and expenses.

Thinking ahead to middle schools, here are I what I see as options (w/o moving from city):

1) Look at the 3rd/4th grade scores to assess feasibility of testing into good public middle
2) Take ISEEs (ditto for privates)
3) Look into boarding schools within 2 hr radius
4) Look into paying for surburban public middle school (I predict a pop. deflation for nearby burbs)
5) Private tutoring/home schooling for 3 years and reassess in 7th grade for SSHAT exams, etc.

I feel confident that one of these 5 options will work out (obviously #1 & #2 my to picks).

If one can figure out a way to afford a 5m+ apt from the proceeds of Botoxing Bknites, I am sure one can figure out the school part. For example, here is a mini-scam going on with gifted-and-talented testing in some ethnic enclaves. People are asking for testing in their mother tongue by (presumably) "inside" psychologists. Where there's a will...

There are a number of decent public schools in Manhattan. PS 199 is highly sought after. The parents association is active and the kids do well. This delays the issues of private school by several years...

A while back, I came across a panhandler on the subway who said he was collecting money to help Donald Trump with his wedding.

I read you loud and clear on superficial diversity..its a joke. Convenience I totally buy, I'll never forget working until 6am on a new business pitch but at least knowing I would be in bed in 10 minutes while my suburban colleagues wouldn't be home for another 90 minutes or so.

Liz: Genuine diversity (socio-economic & racial & "intellectual-capital") is impossible to achieve. Well-endowed private schools can nail the 1st two but will never admit less smart kids with parents who don't fill out the apps. Ditto charters. I am of the post-civil-rights generation. People of my generation resent affirmative action in general, even if they're die-hard liberals. Primarily because time and time again, affirmative action has been perceived to be used by under-represented racial minorities who are in reality middle-class/upper-class strivers who'd have done fine anyway or immigrants of the right color.

You do get diversity, but mostly because buyers are or can trace their lineage to many countries. Let's face it you are not going to find people from the lower socio-economic classes as buyers in these buildings, unless they have risen from it..

I don't disagree with you. I am absolutely opposed to any program or policy that would give an advantage to Malika or Sacha Obama, or a friend of mine who went to Fieldston and Tufts who happens to be African American. Affirmative action, in education NOT employment, based on economics is another matter. I think some accommodation for children from economically deprived background is justified--even the white ones.

And yes there is no way to be inclusive of children from homes where parents just don't give a shit no matter what you do. That is one of the reasons Catholic schools have done so well in disadvantaged neighborhoods, even if they can't afford the tuition-- having a parent who takes the effort to apply and and request financial aid is already a step ahead versus many kids.

Liz: exactly.

the problem of induction.

btw, who was stoyvel?
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/3964-building-at-255-east-74th-street

Mr. botox treatment (I'm not sure he is a board-certified derm) also owns a recently-purchased unit at the Cielo with a hefty mtge. I hope it all works out.

"Liz: Genuine diversity (socio-economic & racial & "intellectual-capital") is impossible to achieve. Well-endowed private schools can nail the 1st two but will never admit less smart kids with parents who don't fill out the apps."

But don't the rich kids got the "less smart" category covered already?

why did this become a rant session for white people to complain about affirmative action? what a cliche.

the article was moronic: large apartments have been the weakest segment of the market since the downturn. prices absolutely collapsed. now, at these drastically reduced prices, sales have gone up. that makes this segment of the market "hot." it's a bad joke.

When I read this article, I thought it focused too heavily on a very small segment of families who choose to live in Manhattan. The article didn't really discuss the apartments of the super-wealthy except for the mention of the one family living in the apartment with the 1000 sq. ft. kitchen nor discuss families in 3 bedroom apartments outside of Manhattan. It basically focused on affluent families who have chosen not to live (with their young children) in a house in a suburb of Westchester or New Jersey and instead move to a new development 3-4 bedroom apartment in the UES, UWS or West Village. I'm not convinced that these families will remain in Manhattan when their children turn 11 or 12 years old, but we'll see if the trend continues over the next few years.

If it was a serious article it would not have appeared in the Times Real Estate section...

don't get why this is news-breaking

or news

always been apartments larger than many suburban homes

suburban homes are usually 1700+ indoor square feet...?

city's just pricey

i ain't gettin what ain't bein gotten. them there rich folk 'r buyin themselves some mighty fine property.

People who can afford $3 million for an apartment can afford to send their children to private school--and in fact, the high quality private schools in Manhattan are a selling point for these families.

this article is HILARIOUS! some of my favorites:

"prices for these apartments have decreased more significantly than those for smaller units, and so are now MORE affordable for MORE people." - Yes, look at ALL the people who can now afford $2.5 million to $7 million apartments. Imgaine what they would have had to live in had the prices not declined.

"Julie Friedman, an executive vice president of Bellmarc Realty, says that MANY people can now buy what was unattainable three years ago. One of her clients held back on buying a large pied-à-terre for several years because he thought prices were high. Then, last summer, he bought a three-bedroom in an Art Deco building for $3.2 million, significantly less than the 2008 asking price of $4.995 million. “It was as if someone had handed him a ‘Buy Now’ card from the heavens,” she said." - how can the times report something like this and take themselves seriously. really????????

surprised that nobody caught this...

"median prices for larger apartments have dropped by as much as 34 percent,"

"The median for three-bedroom apartments was $3.79 million at the market’s height in 2008, and dropped to $2.515 million in April and May, according to market data provided by Prudential Douglas Elliman. "

and that is heaven sent for the people who can ONLY afford a $2.5 million home. Hil-arious! This city is CRAZY!

“It was as if someone had handed him a ‘Buy Now’ card from the heavens,” she said."

Yet another reason to be an atheist.

And that's for a pied a terre, not even a primary residence. I wonder how much the person gave to charity last year? I hope he was generous, I really hope he was. And if he got his money from something other than the lucky sperm club, I hope he donated some of his expertise to some cause he believes in as well.

I have an idea: Let's give all of these rich people buying big apts. tax cuts so that they can upgrade and buy an even still bigger apt. Right Libertarians, isn't that what you want?

glad i'm not the only one amused. even with a 34% drop, does the pool of buyers really change much for these properties or is it just wealthy people spending less of their wealth on real estate?

The 34% price drop is an unnecessary subsidy for wealthy people, with the cost borne unfairly by the rich people who sold the apartments. It's an outrage.

FLMAO... see I told you I MADE $1MM in 2 yrs. $3.79MM to $2.515MM, now I'm gonna get even greedier and say another 2 years and I'll make another cool $1MM, making my salary as a "thumb stuck up my azz SE blogger" at a COOL $500K/ annum...

Multiple bedrooms as a pied a terre. That makes my small, primary residence a maid's room LOL Buyers, please let me know when you're ready to house your help.

More large families are choosing to stay or move into the city rather than going to the burbs. That's a reality in certain circles - especially if both parents work. It's for the covenience as well as for the energy the city brings (to the parents). I think the practical questions are:

1) How will all these families get their golden kids into the city's sports leagues (which are already competitive as hell)

2) How long will stay in the city once they're spending all their weekends going to their kids sports events (vs. the hamptons house, etc.)

Many more...

Actually, I think there's opportunity for business ideas around 'supporting' these families....hmmmm....more jr sports leagues, more kids hangouts, etc.

"The 34% price drop is an unnecessary subsidy for wealthy people, with the cost borne unfairly by the rich people who sold the apartments. It's an outrage"

Since when did the government cap prices?

statistically isn't there a real turnaround in families staying in NYC? yes, of course it's real. this is what accounts for the big move to brooklyn in the past 10 years. in our condo building, all of the bigger apts sold (close to 2000 sq ft) first, and all have kids. this is not at the price point of millions closer to a million dollar apt. what is happening in our area is that families are staying at schools that were not as typical middle class as a suburban school, and the school demographics are changing. would say that i see at my kids school many families that you would've thought would be in suburbs if this were 10-15 years ago. it is an interesting topic of discussion. do believe that dual income parents are a huge part of this - we made the decision to stay in the city because we couldn't imagine having both us commuting up to 2+ to 3 hours a day and being far away from our kid.

also, were we live (Williamsburg), our public school is truly diverse by income, color, religion, ethnicity, you name it. in addition to english - there were 7 other languages that kids were fluent in in our kid's class this year. i do like it for my family, and it is real. for me, it's a journey, and i appreciate the opportunity to meet people and socialize and work with them in the school that i wouldn't have met if we had moved to a burb where everyone was just like us. find it a huge benefit.

I wonder how big of a bonus the buyer received from his bailed out firm. Maybe the govt. should be entitled to some of his equity.

wisco - yes, an article and real numbers on families staying in the city would be interesting.