Mosque near ground zero

I think that if they were smart they would have other religions in there with them too, then it would not be for just one religion and then no religion could complain.

What ever one thinks about the appropriateness of the location MUST take a back seat to the first amendment and the principles to which this country was founded upon. If we do forget it becomes a slippery slope down to hell.

How can that make sense if we had no terrorist attacks, airplanes, or World Trade Center back when the county was founded? We need to think about what is right for today and today every one should be equal and full access to everyone for this location is most appropriate.

The more we become used to all kinds of cultures, the better for us and the more America fulfills its promise, even if the 35 white, English-speaking, land-owning males who made the promise would be amazed. BTW they weren't all culturally uniform. One was Catholic.

It's a little shocking that these guys didn't pick a different place to build the mosque. I'm trying to picture the board mtg where they selected that site and the wise men said that was a good decision - have a little decency / respect and choose another site - no one is saying they can't build it in manhattan but a block from the WTC is a sick joke.

Zone it Commercial only!

seriously though... lets see, ok so the 19 were muslim.

Well, they were human too, so the appropriate thing to do is open a luxury dog spa on the entire site, because anything human would be offensive to the memories of those lost. Heck, the luxury dog spa would be a hit anyway.

I'm for the mosque and also for the Islamic friendly gay bar proposal next door. "In the hopes of breaking down barriers and reducing deadly homophobia in the Islamic world."

el linko...

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/journalist-greg-gutfeld-plans-mosque-adjacent-gay-bar-near-world-trade-center-and-ground-zero

No, New York is NOT the Islamic World, so your bar and Mosque neighbors plan makes no sense.

RS, before 1925 the first amendment did not protect free speech outside congress. This was decided by the supreme court which can and does change its mind all the time. It is not set in stone by any means. Minors do not have developed first amendment rights and obscene material is not protected. I am sure some of the victims relatives are more offended by the mosque than by porn!! I am against it. I will be going to see Geert Wilders making a speech against at ground zero on 9/11.

Who/what is the enemy?

If your answer is Muslim or Islam, then you are ignorant and/or a racist.

If your answer is not Muslim or Islam, then you should not care where the mosque will be.

You all must be kidding....there should not be any muslim anything near Ground Zero.
There is enough religious freedom in this city and there are plenty of mosques already.
If they want another one, they can build is somewhere else!

We who lived thru that day and who lost loved ones are just disgusted by this.
How politically correct can you all be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You should all be outraged at what radical muslims did to our city!
Where are all the peaceful muslims?? I haven't heard any of them speaking out against the 9/11 attacks!!
Where are all of you???

There aren't really so many mosques in NY, unless you count makeshift storefront type places. There are a substantial number of muslims living here -- think Pakistanis, for example. Unless we know that this mosque is being opened by or for "radical" muslims, it's ridiculous to bar them from building and opening, whether or not there's any legal ability. Much better to use the opportunity to integrate/stewpot adherents of that religion into the American mainstream culture, as was done with jews (think settlement houses), and help synthesize a positive, progressive form of Islam that works well with modern western life, as was done with jewish religion in the U.S. Maybe someday there'll even be Muslim suburban bat mitzvahs with pop preteen themes.

And "near" Ground Zero is also absurd. What does "near" mean? It's either on the site or it ain't.

How about that huge mosque/school in Yorkville, a couple of blocks from the YM-YWHA ... was that built there for nose-thumbing purposes? Is it the epicenter of the radical fundamentalist Islam?

Wow - well, let me introduce some common sense to this discussion. 99.999999 % of Muslims in the city that day were just as shocked, appalled, disgusted as anyone else. The fact that they worship the same God in a different way has no bearing. The terrorists who committed the attack in the name of Islam bastardized their religion. The reality is, the old texts for any religion are really quite disgusting if taken literally in this day/age - try reading Leviticus when you have some free time. A majority of Muslims, particularly those in this country, understand that a literal interpretation of their religion is a ridiculous concept.

My neighbor at work on 9/11 lost her brother that day - she is an Afghani Muslim who had grown up in Long Island and continues to live in NYC. I am thankful that our elected leaders appear to be displaying more sense than some on this board.

Against it. Building a mosque so close to the WTC is an insult to NY'ers and Americans. As it plainly shows, the muslims have zero respect for non-muslims and they love the fact they can figuratively "spit in the eye" of this City and the US.

The Left-Wingers have gone too far in allowing this travesty. I'm voting Republican - all the way down in the ballot box come next election.

OTNYC...i don't know how Muslims in NY feel and I don't understand how you can be sure what 99.0000% feel or Muslims around the world feel..I support the mosque because it's what we are about...... Freedom. But let's not assume how others feel. Now I'll get off my soapbox and go to work.

There are several million people of the Islamic faith in the United States. What gives anyone the right to tell them where they can or cannot build a place of worship. And why should several million people lose reliegious freedom as a result of the actions of a few dozen extremists. I would have preferred the mosque be built elsewhere, but it comes off as arrogant when a few people want to dictate where people can worship.

timothy mcveigh was a christian--should churches be allowed in oklahoma city??

wtc will remain a target for terror

a mosque at the wtc site speeaks of a willingness to stand with us against radical islam..we should reinforce this

and the imam of this proposed mosque is in fact quite outspoken against violence and terror; and in favor of peaceful cooperative relation between Muslims and people of all religions..

I would be very scared if government denied a group to buy and build a mosque on this site simply because it would be a mosque.

Hitler was a Catholic. Should we ban them, too?

One word - disgusting

It's not a mosque. It's a Muslim version of a Y or JCC, open to all.

yeah I can't wait to go

Somebody should maybe go to a Muslim country or two, or study a little history, to see their contributions to the world, which include, among other things, scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham), navigation by the stars and the triangular sail, which allowed ships to sail into the wind. While the Christians were burning books and banning the classics, they were being stored in libraries in Damascus (Syria), Baghdad, and Toledo (Spain), and without them we would have no knowledge of Plato or Aristotle, as the early "Christian" fathers had burned those books as heretical.

Spend some time in Istanbul, get back to me with your ignorance.

So the 2 guys that run the development company were waiters in 2002 and then became rental agents. They never did sales. Thats some serious commission to be able to drop almost 5mil cash on the building.

In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock...

I don't believe the government should be able to tell one religion where to build its church.

However, I do believe that everyone should conduct themselves with decency and respect. I believe it is very indecent and disrespectful to build a mosque a block from the WTC. In my mind the question is not whether they should be allowed to build the mosque there, it's whether the mosque's leaders are making a decent and respectful decision by choosing that site - and I think most people would agree that the mosque's leaders are not. If they're not, one then needs to question their motives. If their motives are questionable, then the permits shouldn't be granted.

I hate to say it but that mosque would be a magnet for radical muslims, even if they are the minority.

Well said NYC10013! One does have to wonder WHY that site was chosen regardless of whether it is within their rights or not!

Gee, maybe the site was chosen because it was only a few blocks from their current mosque, was affordable (being an empty, rickety commercial building). You should be ashamed of yourself. You are peddling bigotry and discrimination with your soft-core "Muslims are offensive" bullshit.
You know what? I find stupid people offensive, I don't go about blogs telling them to get out of New York. I know we need stupid people, who else would comment on the weather and watch all the windbags on Fox? That said, if you don't like have the tolerance or humility necessary to live in good harmony with people of all colors, creeds and IQ levels, get thee to an Idaho compound. You numbskulls wouldn't know decency and respect if it bit your nose. If minorities and other second-tier types like women, Asians, jews, Blacks, homosexuals had been "decent and respectful", this country would still be run by British aristocrats. You want decency? You start, maybe you'll find you were the indecent and offensive ones all along.

so maly, you think the ADL is all of the above. You must be the stupid person you are talking about.

Foxman has been appalling on this issue. If I were his friend, I'd take him to see a neurologist pronto. They definitely should be ashamed of themselves.

i'm staying far away from this thread. have fun playing with the racists, guys. i'm sure many will come here to reveal their true colors. bye!

maly, why don't we just give them some of the WTC land for free so they can build a mosque there and show how tolerant we are? Better yet, why don't we take federal tax $s and build them a mosque on WTC land to show how tolerant we are? Better yet, why don't you go to afghanistan and teach the most radical muslims you can find about how tolerant and humble we are? I'm fine with them building a mosque right next door to me (see how tolerant I am), just don't do it a block from the WTC - it's just wrong.

That storefront has been empty for years and finally someone wants to develop it. Other than residential use, I can't see any other use that community space. And really the mosque would be on a side street, you would have to look for it to find it. I think the bigger disgrace is having a Century 21 across the street from the site.

Part of what bothers me with this debate has more to do with land use in general. If my community board approves the use of a site, regardless of the use, i find it frustrating that those outside the community feel the need to input their say.

But these are not the "most radical muslims" ... these are Sufi muslims, who (along with Bahai) are sort of the Quaker or Unitarian "denomination" of Islam (more hippie-dippie than Reform jews, even). And it's an activity center, that has within it a worship hall.

Would you prefer young muslims to have access to the views of those who want to open this center, or of crazy radicals in a storefront in Long Island City?

What's really outrageously insulting to the memories of the victims of 9/11 is the grotesque commercialization of the Ground Zero site. I heard they plan to put offices and stores there. Disgusting.

I don't even like religions. As a woman, I can't help but notice they are mostly an instrument for tradition, and old ways are not good for independent women.
Stop conflating every little bit of information you know into puree. There is nothing offensive or indecent about Muslims wanting to expand their prayer center on their own dime/their own land. I don't give a fig what strange set of fairytale beliefs they follow, as long as it doesn't include illegal acts (that goes for Mormons, scientologists, 7th day adventists and Jehovah's witnesses, Orthodox Jews, Catholics, Presbyterian and Church of England, too).
What I really like is the Constitution and the bill of rights; that is my sacred text. It comes from men, and it evolves over time. It guarantees freedom of religion, and also prevents the government from supporting one religion against another. No freebie or special assist to anyone, no singling out of anyone.
Unless you are ready to contribute at a higher plane, I suggest you stick to the weather.

"It comes from men"

... male chauvinist pig!

heh! credit where credit's due.

Why is this even an issue? Terrorists attacked us on 9/11, not the Islamic faith. At what point during our history can we look with pride upon a time when we treated one race, gender or religion differently from all others? None.

While I am not a constitutional scholar, I'm willing to bet they have the right to proceed. However, it does show a lack of sensitivity. The wounds are still too fresh.

As for the posts that mentioned McVeigh and Hitler, they did not use their religion as the inspiration for their acts. From Wikipedia: In a recorded interview with Time magazine McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up. BTW, I don't follow any organized religion.

MKY - very well put. There is a very big difference between radical anythings (Muslims, Christians or anyone else for that matter) and the rest of the people who peacefully observe their religion.

Also, I happen to know for a fact that OTNYC is dead on about how the majority of the community felt on 911. America (not specific Americans) was attacked by terrorists and all Americans, including Muslim Americans were outraged.

My understanding is that there was a centre located very close by before but they need a bigger location.

I shouldn't say this but it will be a great place to grab a cab!

lo888, OTNYC wrote "99.999999% of Muslims in the city that day were just as shocked, appalled, disgusted as anyone else". I work with a Muslim that subscribes to the 9/11 conspiracy theory. Do I happen to work with the 0.000001% of Muslims that wasn't shocked. My feeling is that the majority of Muslims were outraged by the attacks while you indicated you know that for a fact. I hope we're both correct.
BTW, I maintain a professional relationship with that person, even though I can't understand how she holds that belief.

First, stop with the canard that anyone who opposes the Mosque's being built is racist. That's nonsense. People are well within reason to feel angst that an Islamic cultural center is being built so close to the place where over 2,000 people were murdered IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

That said, damn if the gov't is going to tell any religion where it can or can't build a house of worship (assuming it meets with zoning and public safety regulations).

Hey River, good to see you.

I agree with NYC10013.
If we had Bloomberg's attitude in WWII, we'd be spreckenzing deutsch.
No doubt, it's a tough balance. But if we justify everything by saying "freedom & equality", I think soon we shall have neither.

Fine if they want to build a mosque, but if they want to be part of the "community", then don't build so close to the WTC.

well, i don't consider myself racist or ignorant, but then again no one really does do they. and yes, most muslims are not murderous zealots.

i lived a block from wtc then and along with thousands of people ran for my life that morning. i think that opening an islamic center so close to there 3000 innocent people were murdered in the name of islam is in poor taste, to say the least. some multicultural hippie-hands across the world thing, ok. but not an islamic center, imHUMBLEo

ok, i'm not printer, i didn't see his post.

Glamma, right call. I am disgusted by the complete nonsense and bigotry of calling for an exclusion zone for Muslims around Ground Zero. Vile.

it's not bigotry to show respect for the innocent dead

"People are well within reason to feel angst that an Islamic cultural center is being built so close to the place where over 2,000 people were murdered IN THE NAME OF ISLAM."

I totally agree that opposing this is not tantamount to racism, but the last statement here is way off, in my book. People do things "in the name of" a cause/religion or whatever all the time. That does not mean they accurately represent or speak for that group. Islam and terrorism are quite distinct, despite what some people want you to think.

"First, stop with the canard that anyone who opposes the Mosque's being built is racist. That's nonsense. People are well within reason to feel angst that an Islamic cultural center is being built so close to the place where over 2,000 people were murdered IN THE NAME OF ISLAM."

Yup. I still don't know if I support it or not, but the claims of racism are just unintelligent. Are there racists involved? Probably. But there is definitely a non-racist argument to be made about sensitivity. How about if the mosque were put in the middle of ground zero?

"I lived a block from wtc then and along with thousands of people ran for my life that morning. i think that opening an islamic center so close to there 3000 innocent people were murdered in the name of islam is in poor taste, to say the least. some multicultural hippie-hands across the world thing, ok. but not an islamic center, imHUMBLEo"

Thats what I was actually thinking this week. An interfaith/tolerance center, great. But do you put the german embassy next to the holocaust museum?

that's a bullshit diversion argument. respectfully.

*Must stay away from this thread*
German embassy next to the holocaust museum, really? The Soufis have nothing in common with al qaida extremists. It's like comparing Unitarians to the Westboro Baptist Church. I don't think it's about racism at all; it's about election years and ignorance.

sorry, last comment was directed at bjw2103.

> The Soufis have nothing in common with al qaida extremists.

And I'm willing to give most germans the benefit of the doubt that they're not nazis either.

surprised no one posted jon stewart's take:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/stewart-takes-on-ground-z_n_678224.html

(and it still doesn't make it insensitive)

"it's about election years and ignorance"

agree with you there. it's about stirring shit up to ensure that voters continue to vote along ethnic/cultural lines.

Sure, but a German embassy is a representation of the nation that invented and perfected the holocaust. They have at least some semblance of continuity, although 70 years after the Final Solution was implemented, and 65 years after Nazi Germany was dismantled, not too many people who were adults then are still alive.
Sufism is about love, contemplation, meditation; the exact opposite of terrorists. Not just 65 years later, or descendants of.

Hi Dwell,

My point is all religions not in the majority are at risk of losing their religious freedom if we start denying any one group theirs.

can't we find a more appropriate analogy from the crusades or the moors/spaniard wars? leave the jews out of it!

lucille, why do you think it's bs? The issue is one of respect, and it's completely confounded by people's ignorance and conflation of Islam and terrorism. I don't think the mosque is necessary by any means, but I think people who are so quick to reject it need to think a little deeper about what's driving their conviction here.

> Sure, but a German embassy is a representation of the nation that invented and perfected the
> holocaust

Then lets make it the German happiness club. It doesn't really matter.
You're missing the point, its still a mosque, a huge symbol of islam.

I didn't lose anyone in 9/11, but if someone who did says "I don't want to look at a Mosque when grieving about 9/11", I say they have the right to do that.

Also, have the Soufis come out formally against 9/11, formally against terrorism, and formally against the destruction of Israel?

Do religions usually have formal political platforms?

Are the jews in favor of the modern state of Israel? If you believe so, I'd like you to talk to those in a certain part of Brooklyn.

Happens all the time...
The catholics decided they have a need to prey at the site of jewish mass graves.

MARCIN GRAJEWSKI, Reuters
Jerusalem Post
10-06-1997
OSWIECIM, Poland - A stark new Roman Catholic church, designed to recall “a horrific wound to all humanity,” opened yesterday near the former Nazi death camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

bjw2103, the issue here, imo, is not of respecting or understanding islam. we can respect and understand islam in another location. the respect i am talking about is for the thousands innocent souls, among them muslims, who met a horrific untimely death at the hands of people who kill in the name of islam. it's their version of islam and that's undisputable. i am talking about respecting the dead. i hate when people trot out their 9/11 stories, but i know so many people who were killed. people with families, one guy who was my age (young) who was there for a job interview. just let them rest in peace. we can respect and understand the nuances of islam somewhere else.

Somewhereelse, I am now officially out of this thread. Your ignorance pains me. Read up on Soufism, please, before you further disgrace yourself.

lucille, I hear you. I get both sides of the story, but am just a little wary when some mask their true motivations (knowingly or not). Glad to see you're not one of those.

lucillebluth, you're making a connection between "respecting the dead" and the implied disrespect that emanates from non-complicit muslims. It's really like lynching the first black guy who comes down the street because some white girl was allegedly raped by a black guy.

The dead are smart enough to know that they were killed by terrorists, not so much by muslims.

I lost my best friend back then and I think this whole thread and the public outrage is insane. The problem is that we have never really had anything happen of this magnitude since pearl harbor in our own country. People do not know how to get past it and the very symbol that was destroyed is still sitting as a vacant lot. The families have no where to go to pay their respects because nothing has been built so there is no memorial. I really wonder whether they really would all be out there screaming if the bureacracy of this country did not make it so that it is almost impossible for all parties to agree on what to build and who should pay for it. If a building was in place years ago and people felt some sort of closure would there be such a big movement for a mosque/community center to be built blocks away. Remember this is not on the site it is close by the site. It is hard not to build anything in manhattan that will not be near something else.

I do not think it is a great idea, but i would never say that they have no right to build. If the land is zoned for it and they are doing nothing illegal, then why not?

There are so many other things that people should be fighting for like jobs. Why not go after the chinese who run a massive amount of sweat shops in chinatown in both manhattan and brooklyn.

This whole issue is all about politics. Why the hell is sarah palin weighing in on something that has nothign to do with her state? Because they are trying to make it political. Why would a politician say that he would use emminent domain to take over the land when there is no justification? Well that would be so he could get votes and get elected.

The islamic people as a whole did not destroy the WTC, a specific group of individuals did.

I thought maybe this country learned something about stereotyping after we locked up all the japanese during wwII figuring they were all out to get us.

This was an ill conceived idea that should have had better press put forth explaining why they were doing this. However they have every right to build and people should respect that.

> Read up on Soufism, please, before you further disgrace yourself.

I did. No mention of denouncing 9/11. No mention of denouncing terrorism. No mention of denouncing calls for the destruction of Israel.

Thats when I asked. Thats not ignorance, its the opposite.

So, I guess the answer is.... no.

Mikev,
Exactly! Let's say a group a Turkish congregation wanted to build a chapel. Why should they be denied because of the acts of Saudi extremists? The connection is weak and poorly reasoned.

> Do religions usually have formal political platforms?

No, but if certain members are doing evil on its behalf, then I would expect anyone claiming to not be tied to denounce the evil.

> Are the jews in favor of the modern state of Israel?

Some, not all.

> If you believe so, I'd like you to talk to those in a certain part of Brooklyn

I don't believe so.

But you're missing the point. If certain Jews intentionally blew up children on 52nd street in the name of Judaism, then I'd expect (or demand) that a synagogue opening up anywhere near the spot come from a group denouncing the activity... and I'd also suggest they move it a few blocks over.

alanhart
"It's really like lynching the first black guy who comes down the street because some white girl was allegedly raped by a black guy"

hyperbolic, no? didn't realize we were enacting a death by hanging on random muslims

mikev: I agree - the mind-boggling lack of progress at the WTC site is a factor in all of this. It is a damning indictment of our city that we sit here 9 years later and we have made such little progress.

> The islamic people as a whole did not destroy the WTC, a specific group of individuals did.

And I will embrace any Islamic group that denounces it publicly.

If they don't, then they can't play the "it was someone else" card. If members of any group do evil, religious or not, then you either leave the group or denounce it, or you're part of the evil.

"Exactly! Let's say a group a Turkish congregation wanted to build a chapel. Why should they be denied because of the acts of Saudi extremists?"

Again, if its on the site of the deaths, its in poor taste. And, if they don't distance themselves from the activity, then they can't distance themselves from the fallout from it.

"I thought maybe this country learned something about stereotyping after we locked up all the japanese during wwII figuring they were all out to get us."

Your statement is in very poor taste, and just not accurate.

You are making imaginary connections, to the point of dishonesty. There hasn't been a claim here about involvement by these folks in the acts. Noone has made assumptions about the people themselves. Look up what "stereotype" means. I'm certainly not making judgements about these people based on their connection to others.

I'm judging the sensitivity just in terms of the symbol and proximity.
And I'm judging the group on THEIR actions and beliefs, if they have denounced or not.

Falks claims of racism/stereotype are OBSTACLES to truth and acceptance.

If this is about

" the respect i am talking about is for the thousands innocent souls, among them muslims, who met a horrific untimely death at the hands of people who kill in the name of islam. it's their version of islam and that's undisputable. i am talking about respecting the dead. i hate when people trot out their 9/11 stories, but i know so many people who were killed. people with families, one guy who was my age (young) who was there for a job interview. just let them rest in peace. we can respect and understand the nuances of islam somewhere else."

well said.

stevejhx, I've been in Istambul. There's no women on the streets, for starters. Even if you don't care, you do see something wrong with it, don't you. Hopefully.

there was a great west wing episode - march of the wooden soldiers - that eloquently argues why we can't just idly stand by for these violations of basic human rights/dignity.

but, if we're talking about the original point, I have no problem with this group if they speak out against the evil. I just find that way too many of the "moderate" Islamic groups say they are moderate, but won't speak out against the evil.

Someone has to.

Tolerating the "not so moderates" has actually just made things worse.

We should reach out a hand to true moderates, not the fake ones.

Nobody says they have "no right" to build whatever wherever. But the degree of tactlessness of the builders borders on insult, and isn't it just easier to take into account the sentiment of the people who suffered a shocking loss at that site?

And if those builders were kind and sensible enough to speak in the open forum? It's sort of arrogant to stay out of the dispute alltogether, I think.

Somewhere,
Disagreee, Where were the christian groups denouncing Pope Benedicts welcoming back Bishop Williamson who denies the Holocaust occured. Do such groups have a responsibility to stand up and say what's right, Yes.
Should the united states ban church's from groups that didn't denounce the Pope. No!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/26/pope.holocaust.denial/index.html

"If they don't, then they can't play the "it was someone else" card. If members of any group do evil, religious or not, then you either leave the group or denounce it, or you're part of the evil"

This is a ridiculous expectation, and you will find yourself repeatedly disappointed in life if you hold to it.

Individuals have free will, even if they affiliate with a group, and demanding the group to take responsibility for every action of every individual (even when it's done in their name) implicitly creates a supposition that the group is guilty as a whole for each action.

Salut: stevejhx, I've been in Istambul. There's no women on the streets, for starters. Even if you don't care, you do see something wrong with it, don't you. Hopefully.

I have not heard that about Istanbul. In fact as a single female I have been doing research on the viability of traveling alone to Istanbul. All the research I have read (and from a couple of friends who have traveled over there) is that it is as safe as any large city for a woman to walk around by herself. No one has told me there are "no women on the streets".

That said, it's more than helpful if the heads of any religious groups denounce extremism and promote tolerance when they have the opportunity. It also shows courage and moral leadership.

alanhart - while it is certainly unreasonable to denounce 'every action of every individual', the murderous slaying of 3,000 innocent people is worthy of denouncement, no?

kstiles99, plenty of tourist females on the streets. But mostly (85%) are men.

kstiles99, I meant natives.

it's important that all sides be respected...it's unfortunate that if you disagree you're immediately called a racist. What would the American people say if Japan built a cultural center next to Pearl Harbor ten years after it happened.

"alanhart - while it is certainly unreasonable to denounce 'every action of every individual', the murderous slaying of 3,000 innocent people is worthy of denouncement, no?"

I know. Come on people, comparing this to STATEMENTS is intellectually dishonest. We're talking about a HUGE event, probably the biggest in our lifetimes. AND we're talking about a structure near the site.

Comparing this to words that one member said... sorry, thats just being ridiculous.

> Should the united states ban church's from groups that didn't denounce the Pope. No!

Again, this is just as bad as the fake racist claims. Did ANYONE say the US should band mosques?
Of course not.

This, again, is intellectually dishonest.

"and demanding the group to take responsibility for every action of every individual (even when it's done in their name)"

Again, we're not talking about EVERY ACTION. We're talking about one of the biggest evils of all time. That happened blocks away.

Some of the arguments on this thread represent some of the most nonsensical comparisons I've ever heard.

Comparing this to a speech by one person, wow, seriously. If you have to stretch that much to come up with the analogy, how bad must the case be?

NY Post
A Muslim case against the mosque
BY STEPHEN SCHWARTZ

Posted: 1:00 AM, August 3, 2010

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf bills his plan for an Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero -- which the city's Landmarks Preservation Commission is expected to vote on tonight -- as a platform for interfaith cooperation, dialogue and understanding.

But the plan is obviously provocative and confrontational -- and it's hard to imagine that Rauf didn't know that long before it became public.

That's one big reason why American Muslims, like other Americans, should reject the project -- particularly if they really want to adhere to traditional Islamic principles. I say that as a Muslim convert since 1997.

Traditional, moderate Islam teaches Muslims living in non-Muslim-majority societies to obey the laws and customs of the country in which they reside. They must avoid conflict with their non-Muslim neighbors whenever possible.

Yet it was no secret that a major Islamic construction project near Ground Zero would offend many New Yorkers; indeed, American Muslims themselves were uneasy about the idea from the beginning. Rauf, while he preaches peace, chose the path of controversy and provocation by originating this mosque project.

Muslim leaders dealing with non-Muslims are also supposed to practice moderation -- not only in words, but also in their deeds and associations. Rauf portrays himself as a spiritual moderate. But he has maintained links with Muslim radicals, including enablers of terror, whom he declines to disavow. These include the Malaysian politician Mahathir Mohamad, who supports Hamas' Gaza dictatorship.

The imam refuses to identify the prospective financial contributors to his undertaking -- so we don't know if there are any radicals among his donors.

American Muslim leaders, especially Sufis and other moderates who assert that peace may be attained through dialogue, cannot accept any alignment with Hamas or any similar organization.

Nor, for that matter, can Muslim leaders allow any accommodation with the clerical tyranny in Iran or with such extremists as the Saudi Wahhabis, Muslim Brotherhood (of which Hamas is a branch) or Pakistani jihadism. Unfortunately, such groups now heavily influence American Islam.

Muslim radicals may see the argument over the Ground Zero mosque as a test of whether Muslims have equal rights in America.

But Muslims will gain such security through sensitivity to their non-Muslim neighbors and resolute opposition to radicalism, not through defiant posturing or defending extremist activities.

Stephen Schwartz is executive director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism at islamicpluralism.org.

"But he has maintained links with Muslim radicals, including enablers of terror, whom he declines to disavow. These include the Malaysian politician Mahathir Mohamad, who supports Hamas' Gaza dictatorship. "

uh, whoops.

These folks calling for 'interfaith cooperation, dialogue and understanding' should first try doing it THEMSELVES.

"Somebody should maybe go to a Muslim country or two, or study a little history, to see their contributions to the world"

funny how steve is pointing out contributions from hundreds of years ago, completely ignoring the Wahabist changeover to an Islam that is basically the opposite of what he's claiming.

"Somewhereelse, I am now officially out of this thread. Your ignorance pains me. Read up on Soufism, please, before you further disgrace yourself. "

seems like maly was the ignorant one... perhaps he should have read up on this group first.

There's no real reason why this shouldn't be allowed as proposed. I empathize with those who truly are impacted by 9-11. And I think that, although it is unfair, let's handle it like a mother with two siblings who are fighting: the one who is right, will have to swallow getting 90% in the interests of peace. Let's have the center, just a few more blocks away, which will frankly separate those who are truly impacted, from the bigots and idiots. No, the center shouldn't HAVE to move a few blocks away, and it isn't 100% RIGHT to ask them to move, but I think solution is the greater good for all parties.

"The dead are smart enough to know that they were killed by terrorists, not so much by muslims. "

OK, fine, but how do you know the mosque won't be used as a recruiting ground for terrorists?

kstiles99,
I love Istanbul, great city, amazing history & good shopping, especially for rugs. Suggest you go with a tour.

However, the Turkish Government is turning away from the West, so the sooner you go, the better. But, if you like to travel, go!