As I get more serious about looking, I'm finding that lots of the places in my range have a few warts. I am trying to figure out which warts are deal breakers and which ones are easily fixable - and which flaws might possibly be used as a negotiating tool. On a scale of 1-5, with 1 being Fixable and Not much of a Negotiation Tool, and 5 being Dealbreaker, how would you rate the following problems?... [more]
As I get more serious about looking, I'm finding that lots of the places in my range have a few warts. I am trying to figure out which warts are deal breakers and which ones are easily fixable - and which flaws might possibly be used as a negotiating tool.
On a scale of 1-5, with 1 being Fixable and Not much of a Negotiation Tool, and 5 being Dealbreaker, how would you rate the following problems?
1) Poorly installed windows leading to leaks in some apartments.
2) Improperly installed or (in the case of older buildings) older roofs that will need repairs in the next few years.
3) Ongoing litigation with developer to fix window or roof-related problems - best outcome: developer has to fix it, worst outcome: condo has to fix it, but you may not know for some time yet how the case will be resolved.
4) Warped floors due to water damage. I've seen quite a bit of this in both new development and older coops lately.
I've read that inspectors don't always do a very thorough job, and that they often don't look for things that can turn out to be a problem later. Any advice on the above?
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Response by sidelinesitter
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 1596
Member since: Mar 2009
2
4
3-4
3
Re: inspectors, a recent vintage and true story: A colleague has been in contract on a suburban house for some time. His due diligence included having an inspector go over the property - clean bill of health. My colleague goes back for the final walk-through and notices that from a certain angle the color of one corner of a carpet looks different from the rest. They pull up the edge of the carpet to find that the carpet has been wet (don't know if from a leak or a spill) and there is a nasty black mold growing underneath. Closing delayed and deal potentially off, pending further investigation of the mold. Inspector's contribution to this: zero.
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Response by marco_m
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 2481
Member since: Dec 2008
why would you enter into a deal with any of those items unless you are being directly compensated for them somehow
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Response by Mikev
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 431
Member since: Jun 2010
evnyc, i am not sure i understand the question. First regarding #3 is this directly with developer or a resale? it really would change the answer.
I would assume all of them are negotiation tools and none are a dealbreaker unless you can not get some sort of guarantee, it is fixed prior, or you have language that would protect you for instance if deveeloper were to be found not at fault and condo had to fix.
With regard to a roof, assumng older roof, does the building have a reserve fund? If not able to cover then i would factor in as a negotiation that you will have to pay something to fix, while the prior owner enjoyed the benefits of.
but the real question is isn't everything a negotiation? There is no such thing as a dealbreaker unless you wind up with sidelinesitter's colleagues issues. If you do not like something you just do not make an offer. Your offer price is based on your feelings towards costs you may incur that make the apartment worth less.
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Response by evnyc
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 1844
Member since: Aug 2008
Sideline, thanks, that's really helpful. Inspectors scare me because it sounds like many of them don't really do much. Since I don't know a lot about this stuff I'm relying on the experts, wherever I can find them.
Mikev, please feel free to opine on either situation. I don't have a particular development or building in mind, so my questions are a composite of things I've seen among new development, resales and coops. Of course everything is a negotiation, but inventory in my low-end market is very, very low so there's not a lot of room to point at other listings and say, hey, there's six comps that are all significantly lower priced so here's my commensurate offer. While I am hoping that will change in the next few weeks, I also want to do my homework so I can negotiate effectively on all fronts.
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Response by evnyc
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 1844
Member since: Aug 2008
*bump*
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Response by lobster
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 1147
Member since: May 2009
I tend to distinguish between those expenses/hassles that would be a building issue and those that are the responsibiity of the apartment owner alone. Examples 2 and 3 are building problems while examples 1 and 4 might become your problem alone. Every apartment will need repairs done, but you should consider how persistant the leaks described in example 1 and the warped floors in example 4 will be as an ongoing expense/hassle. If these are issues that you are considering taking on with an apartment, I would try to educate myself as much as possible with how leaks and warped floors are usually repaired and how these issues are monitored with respect to future problems. Examples 2 and 3 will be a possible financial assessment, but not an issue you will likely need to address on your own.
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Response by romary
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 443
Member since: Aug 2008
3 for #1, 4 for the rest.
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Response by evnyc
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 1844
Member since: Aug 2008
Thanks, everyone, for your comments. Lobster, with regard to warped floors I've seen everything from probable cases of neglect (unit sat empty for a while) to possible leaks from inside the walls of other apartments; most don't appear to be ongoing problems but then again, these brokers will tell you anything they think you want to hear, so I don't really trust them.
The low-end market is just so, so depressing.
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Response by seven7
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 161
Member since: Aug 2008
RESEARCH ON THE DEVELOPER- Some of these small time investors will sell you anything
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Response by evnyc
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 1844
Member since: Aug 2008
Well, sure, that's step one. But how about established developers when you're looking at resales? There's bound to be a lawsuit or two in the past, and any idiot with a beef can launch a lawsuit. And what about co-ops? Is researching a builder's record from 50 years ago all that helpful? Or, assuming they're still around today, would a builder's current record have any bearing whatsoever on a building completed decades ago? I think not.
Helpful in the case of new dev, but not exactly a panacea.
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Response by lobster
almost 16 years ago
Posts: 1147
Member since: May 2009
evnyc, I have a few more thoughts about your question from a few days ago.
1. If you're planning on living in this apartment for a significant amount of time (more than 7-8 years), I would be less concerned about the costs of repairs to roofs of older coops. I don't know anything about new developments wtih improperly installed roofs. Older buildings need maintenance for roofs, boilers, elevators etc. and something will likely happen if you live there for awhile. But Mikev's point to check for an adequate building reserve fund is very important.
2. What would concern me more is ongoing litigation with a new developer, especially a class action suit. I understand the allure of buying into a new development, but I would have your attorney carefully look into what is alleged in the complaint. Just to make sure that it's a general repair issue and not structural problems with the building.
3. I lived with warped floors in my living room last summer when my a/c unit leaked. It's a moderate annoyance getting it fixed - ripping out damaged floors, etc. It would be helpful to ascertain why the floors warped.
Again good luck on your search. Now I'm off to see a few (still overpriced IMO) new listings on the UWS.
2
4
3-4
3
Re: inspectors, a recent vintage and true story: A colleague has been in contract on a suburban house for some time. His due diligence included having an inspector go over the property - clean bill of health. My colleague goes back for the final walk-through and notices that from a certain angle the color of one corner of a carpet looks different from the rest. They pull up the edge of the carpet to find that the carpet has been wet (don't know if from a leak or a spill) and there is a nasty black mold growing underneath. Closing delayed and deal potentially off, pending further investigation of the mold. Inspector's contribution to this: zero.
why would you enter into a deal with any of those items unless you are being directly compensated for them somehow
evnyc, i am not sure i understand the question. First regarding #3 is this directly with developer or a resale? it really would change the answer.
I would assume all of them are negotiation tools and none are a dealbreaker unless you can not get some sort of guarantee, it is fixed prior, or you have language that would protect you for instance if deveeloper were to be found not at fault and condo had to fix.
With regard to a roof, assumng older roof, does the building have a reserve fund? If not able to cover then i would factor in as a negotiation that you will have to pay something to fix, while the prior owner enjoyed the benefits of.
but the real question is isn't everything a negotiation? There is no such thing as a dealbreaker unless you wind up with sidelinesitter's colleagues issues. If you do not like something you just do not make an offer. Your offer price is based on your feelings towards costs you may incur that make the apartment worth less.
Sideline, thanks, that's really helpful. Inspectors scare me because it sounds like many of them don't really do much. Since I don't know a lot about this stuff I'm relying on the experts, wherever I can find them.
Mikev, please feel free to opine on either situation. I don't have a particular development or building in mind, so my questions are a composite of things I've seen among new development, resales and coops. Of course everything is a negotiation, but inventory in my low-end market is very, very low so there's not a lot of room to point at other listings and say, hey, there's six comps that are all significantly lower priced so here's my commensurate offer. While I am hoping that will change in the next few weeks, I also want to do my homework so I can negotiate effectively on all fronts.
*bump*
I tend to distinguish between those expenses/hassles that would be a building issue and those that are the responsibiity of the apartment owner alone. Examples 2 and 3 are building problems while examples 1 and 4 might become your problem alone. Every apartment will need repairs done, but you should consider how persistant the leaks described in example 1 and the warped floors in example 4 will be as an ongoing expense/hassle. If these are issues that you are considering taking on with an apartment, I would try to educate myself as much as possible with how leaks and warped floors are usually repaired and how these issues are monitored with respect to future problems. Examples 2 and 3 will be a possible financial assessment, but not an issue you will likely need to address on your own.
3 for #1, 4 for the rest.
Thanks, everyone, for your comments. Lobster, with regard to warped floors I've seen everything from probable cases of neglect (unit sat empty for a while) to possible leaks from inside the walls of other apartments; most don't appear to be ongoing problems but then again, these brokers will tell you anything they think you want to hear, so I don't really trust them.
The low-end market is just so, so depressing.
RESEARCH ON THE DEVELOPER- Some of these small time investors will sell you anything
Well, sure, that's step one. But how about established developers when you're looking at resales? There's bound to be a lawsuit or two in the past, and any idiot with a beef can launch a lawsuit. And what about co-ops? Is researching a builder's record from 50 years ago all that helpful? Or, assuming they're still around today, would a builder's current record have any bearing whatsoever on a building completed decades ago? I think not.
Helpful in the case of new dev, but not exactly a panacea.
evnyc, I have a few more thoughts about your question from a few days ago.
1. If you're planning on living in this apartment for a significant amount of time (more than 7-8 years), I would be less concerned about the costs of repairs to roofs of older coops. I don't know anything about new developments wtih improperly installed roofs. Older buildings need maintenance for roofs, boilers, elevators etc. and something will likely happen if you live there for awhile. But Mikev's point to check for an adequate building reserve fund is very important.
2. What would concern me more is ongoing litigation with a new developer, especially a class action suit. I understand the allure of buying into a new development, but I would have your attorney carefully look into what is alleged in the complaint. Just to make sure that it's a general repair issue and not structural problems with the building.
3. I lived with warped floors in my living room last summer when my a/c unit leaked. It's a moderate annoyance getting it fixed - ripping out damaged floors, etc. It would be helpful to ascertain why the floors warped.
Again good luck on your search. Now I'm off to see a few (still overpriced IMO) new listings on the UWS.