Help with an Estimate on Renovation...

350k~400k. If you need design service, please contact me at generative.arch@gmail.com. I am a licensed architect with abundant experience in residential design.

One kitchen, one bath, electrical, floors. How does that top $200k? For $350 to $400k, you could buy the land, build the building and pay the marketing, developing and selling expenses of a new construction building only 12 years ago. What is that space, 900 sf?

i think Karhu is right on the money but i am only speaking from the limited experience of our recent renovation. Our space was larger but all the electrical and plumbing needed to be replaced as well as the hvac units so we spent about 25% more than that figure. we plan on being here long term so we invested in quality tile, appliances, etc. We also made decisions along the way which upped the figure that we originally set out to spend, i.e. radiant floor heating in three bathrooms, etc. Having built several homes in the past, i know this is an easy thing to do we we were mentally prepared to go over the budget which is not quite the right mindset to have with a project of this kind...

It's gut renovation and I assume high quality renovation.

I agree with karhu, I am a designer and have worked with architects/contractors in NYC and a total high end gut renovation will be $350-$400K, it looks like 1,000sf to me. It isn't only the kitchen/bath, electric. What about demo of walls, possibly replace wood floors, new plumbing, hvac, lighting, new doors, wood trim, hardware....and of course a paint job! The paint job alone could be $15k-$20K if the walls need skim coating, which will probably be the case. And then there are the architect/contractor fees, and all the NYC permit fees. And then you have to decorate the space. I always tell clients a gut reno is like child birth, a painfull process but a joyous outcome! Go for it and enjoy!

If you spend $350-400k, you are getting raped. At the height of the market such a renovation would only cost $250k if planned right. Of course, if you are willing to pay absurd prices for Waterworks vs. equivalent tile you can get elsewhere for 1/2 the price or less, I guess $350k isn't out of the question. The problem with working with most designers/architects is that I haven't met one who was willing to put in the work to find a cheaper solution. They just take you to the most expensive places and suggest the most expensive stuff. The only one who cares enough to save you money is yourself.

well said printer. everyone involved has an interest in raising the cost but you. you tell a broker that you have $100k in equity to spend when you are shopping for a $200k uptown coop and they try to sell you on a $400k purchase in prime manhattan instead.

OMFG the bubble has burst, construction is suffering, yet the pillaging of renovators continues. Not for long karhu, get it while you can I guess.

In the frothy market of 2005 I gutted and renovated a 1250 sf 2 bed two bath coop apt on W 72 between CPW and Columbus. Designer, contractor, demolition, all materials, lighting, appliances, plumbing, floor resurfacing, electric were appprox $215,000. Job was reasonably high-end (Toto, Dornbracht, Sub-zero, GE Profile) -- and 8.5 on a scale of 1 - 10.

i am in no position to defend renovators but i do have to say my husband and i did a lot of the legwork in this project ourselves. neither one of us was working so we had the time to check prices, get second and third estimates, and do a lot of searching for materials. what we didn't do was argue with the contractor and/or architect if they wanted to use a specific skilled contractor such as the plumber or electrician who both had done multiple reno jobs in the building. we also payed cash whenever there was a discount offered for such and we offered that to every contractor possible saving thousands of dollars in the process. Excluding decorating, i.e. furniture/window treatments, i am estimating our renovation for a place about 2000 square feet cost about $235 a square foot. Perhaps we could have spent less money if we had had more experience but it wasn't for lack of trying! hope this helps in your planning process, koren.

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Agree with Rosina. If you do leg work up front re sourcing materials you can be far better off. Also, there are some architects out there that are more "out of the box" and can work with clients on finding innovative solutions that are high-end but help keep prices lower (e.g., mine had a cement-composite manufacturer they used for restaurant clients that I utilized in my kitchen -- turned out beautifully at far lower price point than even crappy counters).

The firm I used was SchappacherWhite headed by Steve Schappacher (see http://schappacherwhite.com/portfolio/). Feel free to tell them Ron from the Spring Street project recommended.

I also agree with Rosina. I renovated my apartment and did my own sourcing. (Stores and on-line sources.) I negotiated deals with vendors and ended up saving myself money. (I also did this for a friend..and saved her thousands!) I work part-time, so I was able to spend the necessary time. I also agree with Printer-you can get great tile without paying ridiculous prices. Definitely ask your tile source for the "contractor's discount." That alone saved me 15%.

I also did some major homework before hiring my contractor. He had done a (studio) gut renovation for a friend. I looked at her place and also other projects he had done prior to hiring him. After my experience with a previous contractor, I wanted to make sure he showed up on time everyday and would come in on budget. He did..and we had a very good experience with he and his staff. Feel free to contact him at philipshomeimprovement@gmail.com. I know he will give you a rudimentary figure over the phone...but will probably need more information before doing so. Good luck!

Rosina/karhu:

You may have legged it on the materials, but that is usually not the bulk of costs.

Labor, labor, labor. If you want to turnkey the thing and just write one contractor a fat check, sure pay 300-400k for a 1200ish sqft apt (2 baths). If you take on more responsibility and scheduling, you can save $$$ on the job by dealing with subs directly. Before people scream "license" at me, very few licensed plumbers/electricians in NYC actually do plumbing themselves, their underlings do it at oh, $20/hr. Ditto flooring. You are paying the GC huge $ to source the labor.

Around $250K depending on your HVAC situation. $300K is certainly possible, but anything over $300K is overrenovating, and IMHO, you'll never get that money back.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

nyc10023 - Don't you think you are also paying the GC to coordinate all the trades? So you don't have a plumber unable to do work because the flooring people haven't finished their job, etc. etc. Being your own GC can obviously save a lot of money, but you have to have enough expertise to understand the scheduling process required by construction. From your posts, it seems as if you've done enough renovations to be able to take on a project like that, but how many others have the time, energy, and knowledge to be their own GC, without multiple emergencies and mini-disasters?

Sure, ph. But how many times have I heard a GC blaming a delay on a sub. I wouldn't necessarily advocate sub-bing everything, but there are some easy ones to deal wtih. And if you don't understand the scheduling process, then should you really sign a 300k-400k check to someone who will take advantage of your ignorance?

Simple things to sub:
1) Flooring
2) Custom millwork, carpentry, mouldings
3) Painting (inc. skim coat)
4) Electrical

Things NOT to sub, but also you need to know who your GC is getting and what he's charging you for:
1) Plumbing
2) demolition
3) new walls
4) Tiling
5) Kitchen/Bath fixture installation

Custom millwork is not a simple thing for high end renovation. Neither does electrical, especially for people demanding home theater, special a/v, lighting or shading control.

oops, I just realize that the topic is not high end renovation, it's high-end kitchen appliance. my bad.

Karhu: I didn't say it was simple or even suggest that one design millwork.

Simply put, GCs charge (and should charge) a large premium for co-ordination. If you can break down the job into components that can be easily subbed out, that's how you save $, not by chasing the trade price on a Dornbrach faucet.

Example 1 - if you are not moving walls, the flooring (outside wet areas) can be done by a separate sub early on in the process. Take some responsibility and cover the floor well (I bet you do a better job than any GC) and carry on. That can save you tens of thousands.

Example 2 - Running wires is not difficult - all this "special" a/v/home theatre, it's all about running the right wires from A to B. Get the electrician to do all the sockets, light fixtures, switches (specify 'em to be Lutron dimmers). Then get an A/V consultant to do all the media wiring before you patch the walls.

I didn't sub things out - I like being able to blame one person if things go wrong or timing is off, rather than get into a he said/she said. The biggest area we saved money on was having an architect do the plans and filings for a flat flee (he actually ended up doing more than we initially thought, and a good job, so we voluntarily paid him extra), then we bid out the job and dealt with the contractor ourselves. This nonsense of an architect or 'designer' as a middleman who marks up prices even more is ridiculous. And they don't catch anything you wouldn't yourself - I just can't emphasize enough that only you will care enough about your remodel to make sure everything is done exactly right.
At the same time we were renovating our place, a colleague of mine was doing a very high end ($1mm+ reno on a $10mm+ place) reno, with top of the line contractor, architect, project manager, etc., and it made no difference- in fact I would say I spent less time on the phone dealing with contractors, etc. than he did.

nyc10023, i would expect that every renovation has its own unique footprint. The GC we hired was the building super and the architect's fee (substantial) included project management. Both had worked together on several different renos within the building and we were able to see their work and talk to the clients. We were moving walls so sub scheduling was tricky and needed to be handled by GC. we paid every sub individually and the GC charged a 10% fee for the materials he sourced such as millwork, doors, and the like. Husband kept spreadsheets of the project and the GC had given him invoices from prior jobs so we could budget effectively. we did not do any intricate wiring for speakers/audio visual as we have that in our other 'smart' house and have come to realize we are too stupid to use it effectively. (instead we are relying on wireless apple options which are far less expensive.) We did get the architects professional discount on many materials which ranged from 10% to 30% depending on vendor. The point of this explanation is that we didn't just hand a big check over to a GC but did do as much as we could with our limited experience to mitigate the costs. we also read all the renovation strings in SE and gratefully borrowed ideas and suggestions that you and others like kylewest put forth.