(I am reposting this as I posted it under "anything" in error instead of under "sales"....thx) Merry Xmas all....you will see several postings from me as I am about to put my place back on the market and don't want to make some of the same mistakes I made the first time around. The first realization is that I abosolutely do NOT need a buyers broker in my case (not saying for all, but in my case),... [more]
(I am reposting this as I posted it under "anything" in error instead of under "sales"....thx)
Merry Xmas all....you will see several postings from me as I am about to put my place back on the market and don't want to make some of the same mistakes I made the first time around. The first realization is that I abosolutely do NOT need a buyers broker in my case (not saying for all, but in my case), thru your help on these postings.
Long story short, my broker to sell is a personal friend (first mistake, be careful before engaging a friend in this type of transaction it got heated many times and is in a difficult spot right now.)
Anway, I never promised that he would be showing me apartments to buy as I knew I could do that on my own. It wasn't talked about or written, he just assumed it .
So when I found a place on my own, and told the broker (from a smallish agency) that I was looking at it "without a broker" he was more than willing to get me a discount as he said almost everything he sells he has to split the commmsission with an outside broker...(Meanwhile this was about 10 months ago). When I told my broker at the time I found this apartment and went to look at it, he WENT BALLISTIC on me saying "how could I", he must be a listed broker on this unit, etc. etc. and brought up our friendship of over 20 years. This is when I really started to see the "broker shark" come in, and realized he wasn't looking at my best interests, only I was! So I listed him against my better judgement with the sellers broker on that until.
Subsequently, we never reached a suitable bid, the apartment is still on the market 10 months later, and I want to see it again. I am not under any contract to my former broker/friend as our contract is over, so do I have any legal obligation to include him in the deal?? Plus, my broker friend NEVER EVEN BOTHERED TO SEE THE APARTMENT I AM DISCUSSING HERE!!!! It's clearly obvious why my broker wanted to be involved. I am a lot less naive as I was then.
Your comments are most welcome, along with any questions you may have.
Again I will be posting a series of topics as I have found alot of your feedback very helpful from buyers, sellers, and brokers that truly have their clients interests at heart.
Many thanks for reading.
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Response by romary
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 443
Member since: Aug 2008
lie/lay in the bed you made.
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Response by damier212
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
Thanks for your commment romary, but be more specific in my case please......Are you saying because I chose this broker/friend, deal with it?
I am asking a particular question about going back to see a unit my broker never saw, our contract is over, etc.
Where is the responsibility at this point.....clarity will help me with your or anyone elses answer. I did nothing wrong other than acquiese to someone elses near demands.
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Response by matsonjones
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 1183
Member since: Feb 2007
My view. Two points,
Just because you use a specific broker to sell YOUR unit, does not automatically mean that you are under any obligation to use the same person when you are looking to purchase a new unit. Clarity and transparency are the key issues here. Simply tell the broker you intend to use them as a selling broker only.
As to the the whole issue of friendship. This is just a disagreement over money. The broker's pov is that they are losing out on their cut of the 3% his/her side would make from the transaction. Your pov is that by finding a place you like and can vet on your own, you are saving some portion of that 3%. The broker thinks because on your 20 year friendship you owe them the right to earn that 3% (+/-). You think because of your 20 year friendship they would want you to get the very best deal you can, regardless of whether they're involved or not. And that is why I never use brokers who are friends.
I do think, however, in this one case, because you are going back to see the exact same unit in the exact same building (with what I assume to be is the exact same sell-side broker), and your 'friend' was named as your buy-side broker, you probably should honor this pre-existing arrangement. But if this specific unit doesn't work out, and you decide to look at other units, you need to be clear with your 'friend' about the specifics of your business relationship.
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Response by bramstar
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 1909
Member since: May 2008
Hi, Damier--I asked a similar question (please see http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/24300-brokers-coming-out-of-the-woodwork )though of a more hypothetical nature. I wonder whether you might need to be concerned about your 'friend' coming after you legally if you decide to do a deal on this particular apartment without him. Because you've already signed him in as your buy-side broker on the listing, albeit months ago, I might be concerned that he could make a successful case for a commission.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I will weigh in...
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Response by damier212
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
lilboi-
matsonjones- you have meade some excellent points. That is why I go on this board for advice and help, even if its not what I may want to hear. I think you put all the cards on the table and will make me re-think this "broker" arrangement for the future and what is done is done. Thank you.
bramstar- you have given me good reason to think twice about visiting this apartment that is still on the market that my broker never saw but I agreed to listing him with me on it as a potential buyer. Even "friends" can turn ruthless so I just as soon include him in the deal even though he did NOTHING than to have him start to threaten me should I want to purchase it.
Thank you.
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Response by kharby2
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 279
Member since: Oct 2009
Regarding the brokerage and possible split of commission, this is not your decision to make. If both brokerages are REBNY members, they will follow REBNY guidelines.
Listing brokers invite buyer's brokers to help sell the property. On that basis, the listing brokerage firm pays the buyer's brokerage firm for their work. The contract is not with you, the buyer, it is with the seller. You have no say regarding what the seller has chosen to sign; this piece is not your decision to make. If both brokerage firms belong to REBNY, those guidelines will be followed.
The only decision for you is to negotiate this yourself, or to enlist a buyer's broker. If asked about a broker, I highly recommend you tell the truth of this history. Say you are not using that person anymore and are handling your purchase negotiations yourself. Your name will be in the listing broker's records, anyway.
Then, forget about the commission. It's none of your business at this point, actually, it's the seller's contractual obligation. Best of luck to you, I hope it all works out.
Karla Harby, VP
Charles Rutenberg Realty NYC
kharby@crrnyc.com
Both brokers behaved unprofessionally in your case.
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Response by huntersburg
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
kharby, what is the minimum service that a buyer's broker must offer the buyer according to the REBNY guildines in order that the buyer's broker is covered under the REBNY guidelines?
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Response by inonada
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 7951
Member since: Oct 2008
"Then, forget about the commission. It's none of your business at this point, actually, it's the seller's contractual obligation. Best of luck to you, I hope it all works out."
Unless of course you enlist KeithB, at which point Keith's has a contractual obligation to pay you part of the commission the seller is contractually obligated to pay him.
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Response by kmbroker
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 116
Member since: Jan 2008
If you want to persue this property without your "friend" broker you may do so however, you need to put in writing to the selling broker that you do not wish to be represented by this broker as your buyer broker because you feel he has "abandoned" you. The selling broker needs this to prevent his firm from possible lawsuit.REBNY rules allow you to give up or change buyer brokers under these citrcumstanses
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Response by bramstar
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 1909
Member since: May 2008
Oldbroker--but would such a lawsuit be against the selling broker's firm or against the buyer who 'dumped' the buy-side broker? Wouldn't the buy-side broker go after the buyer in this case?
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Response by cherrywood
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 273
Member since: Feb 2008
I've read this thread quickly and am not sure whether you have a written, signed broker agreement, but if the term of the agreement is for a specific period of time (as they usually are on the seller side), once the contractual term has expired, I don't see why you have any obligation to your broker"friend" at all.
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Response by damier212
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
Hi folks, for clarity, let me reiterate the post.
My agreement with my former broker is OVER, the contract is finito. He railroaded me into adding him as a selling broker on a unit I found and saw it on my own, represented by a small brokers office that was willing to give me a discount because I was not brining in a sellers broker. My broker was an old friend (who felt entitled to a percentage in anything I was looking at to buy), even though we never agreed to it. I , in order to make peace agreed to list him as my broker on this unit I was looking at, not because I wanted to, or that he deserved it, I didn't want to jeopardize our friendship (BIG MISTAKE FOLKS, LEARN FROM MY LESSON, DO NOT DO REAL ESTATE TRANSACTIONS WITH FRIENDS!!).
Long story short, that same apartment is still on the market. My former broker has still NEVER seen the apartment, he only made bids (unaccepted) on my behalf. It is possible 10 months later the owner will go lower in price.
I still don't have a clear answer from anyone that tells me if I am responsible to my former broker in any way shape or form, if I go after this apartment on my own? Or is this a question I should ask my real estate lawyer instead?
Many thanks.
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Response by ab_11218
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 2017
Member since: May 2009
after 3 months passes by, you should be clear. i would approach the selling broker and let them know that if the seller will return with an acceptance or something that you would be willing to agree to, then contact you directly.
the other broker, without seeing the place and not really doing anything on your behalf, will not have any ties to the deal by then.
if you would like to speak to your attorney, just to make sure, do that to clear your mind and feel at ease.
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Response by damier212
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
Thanks ab_11218- your comment makes perfect sense.
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Response by IAmSpartacus
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 61
Member since: Oct 2008
Ab...why the 3 month delay if the contract has expired?
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Response by huntersburg
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
I'm confused about this:
1 - My agreement with my former broker is OVER, the contract is finito. He railroaded me into adding him as a selling broker on a unit I found and saw it on my own, represented by a small brokers office that was *** willing to give me a discount because I was not brining in a sellers broker. ***
2 - Subsequently, *** we never reached a suitable bid***, the apartment is still on the market 10 months later,
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Response by damier212
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
huntersburg- I will explain.
My contract with my broker (friend) ended when the last deal fell apart. It had an ending date and we are beyond that date. While under contract with the broker I found an apt. to buy on my own, (My broker was only engaged to help me sell my place, I never said he was engaged to help me FIND another home, it's an assumption he made which got ugly when I told him I found something on my own). Make sense? The small brokerage house knowing that I was not bringing in anohter broker to buy, was willing to discoun the price even more as they knew they weren't going to have to pay out a full 6%.
When I finally got railroaded by my broker to include him in the negotiation, we gave the sellers broker a bid which was rejected.........Now, 10 months later that same apt. is still available and I want to know if I have any legal obligations to my former broker if I start the negotiations all over again. Mind you, my broker (FRIEND), NEVER BOTHERED TO EVEN PHYSICALLY LOOK AT THE APARTMENT I WAS INTERESTED IN
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Response by nicercatch
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 242
Member since: Sep 2008
you re looking at things from a contract/legal perspective. what you're not facing is: dump the so called "friend". He(she) is not your friend: just a broker. get rid of bad karma. a broker is rarely somebody's friend: just an acquaintance.they' re nice and polite and polished, but as u said the shark is lurking. watch your back
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Response by damier212
almost 15 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
nicercatch: your comments are too real and not what I want to believe but they probably are all true. This is a friend of over 20 years (and I do mean a friend), but when doing business with him he hasn't at all behaved like one and has only looked after his own best interests, certainly not mine or I wouldn't have had all of these stories to tell. Well, I guess I learned a hard lesson.
What broker can I trust from what office? I'm serious........
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lie/lay in the bed you made.
Thanks for your commment romary, but be more specific in my case please......Are you saying because I chose this broker/friend, deal with it?
I am asking a particular question about going back to see a unit my broker never saw, our contract is over, etc.
Where is the responsibility at this point.....clarity will help me with your or anyone elses answer. I did nothing wrong other than acquiese to someone elses near demands.
My view. Two points,
Just because you use a specific broker to sell YOUR unit, does not automatically mean that you are under any obligation to use the same person when you are looking to purchase a new unit. Clarity and transparency are the key issues here. Simply tell the broker you intend to use them as a selling broker only.
As to the the whole issue of friendship. This is just a disagreement over money. The broker's pov is that they are losing out on their cut of the 3% his/her side would make from the transaction. Your pov is that by finding a place you like and can vet on your own, you are saving some portion of that 3%. The broker thinks because on your 20 year friendship you owe them the right to earn that 3% (+/-). You think because of your 20 year friendship they would want you to get the very best deal you can, regardless of whether they're involved or not. And that is why I never use brokers who are friends.
I do think, however, in this one case, because you are going back to see the exact same unit in the exact same building (with what I assume to be is the exact same sell-side broker), and your 'friend' was named as your buy-side broker, you probably should honor this pre-existing arrangement. But if this specific unit doesn't work out, and you decide to look at other units, you need to be clear with your 'friend' about the specifics of your business relationship.
Hi, Damier--I asked a similar question (please see http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/24300-brokers-coming-out-of-the-woodwork )though of a more hypothetical nature. I wonder whether you might need to be concerned about your 'friend' coming after you legally if you decide to do a deal on this particular apartment without him. Because you've already signed him in as your buy-side broker on the listing, albeit months ago, I might be concerned that he could make a successful case for a commission.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I will weigh in...
lilboi-
matsonjones- you have meade some excellent points. That is why I go on this board for advice and help, even if its not what I may want to hear. I think you put all the cards on the table and will make me re-think this "broker" arrangement for the future and what is done is done. Thank you.
bramstar- you have given me good reason to think twice about visiting this apartment that is still on the market that my broker never saw but I agreed to listing him with me on it as a potential buyer. Even "friends" can turn ruthless so I just as soon include him in the deal even though he did NOTHING than to have him start to threaten me should I want to purchase it.
Thank you.
Regarding the brokerage and possible split of commission, this is not your decision to make. If both brokerages are REBNY members, they will follow REBNY guidelines.
Listing brokers invite buyer's brokers to help sell the property. On that basis, the listing brokerage firm pays the buyer's brokerage firm for their work. The contract is not with you, the buyer, it is with the seller. You have no say regarding what the seller has chosen to sign; this piece is not your decision to make. If both brokerage firms belong to REBNY, those guidelines will be followed.
The only decision for you is to negotiate this yourself, or to enlist a buyer's broker. If asked about a broker, I highly recommend you tell the truth of this history. Say you are not using that person anymore and are handling your purchase negotiations yourself. Your name will be in the listing broker's records, anyway.
Then, forget about the commission. It's none of your business at this point, actually, it's the seller's contractual obligation. Best of luck to you, I hope it all works out.
Karla Harby, VP
Charles Rutenberg Realty NYC
kharby@crrnyc.com
Both brokers behaved unprofessionally in your case.
kharby, what is the minimum service that a buyer's broker must offer the buyer according to the REBNY guildines in order that the buyer's broker is covered under the REBNY guidelines?
"Then, forget about the commission. It's none of your business at this point, actually, it's the seller's contractual obligation. Best of luck to you, I hope it all works out."
Unless of course you enlist KeithB, at which point Keith's has a contractual obligation to pay you part of the commission the seller is contractually obligated to pay him.
If you want to persue this property without your "friend" broker you may do so however, you need to put in writing to the selling broker that you do not wish to be represented by this broker as your buyer broker because you feel he has "abandoned" you. The selling broker needs this to prevent his firm from possible lawsuit.REBNY rules allow you to give up or change buyer brokers under these citrcumstanses
Oldbroker--but would such a lawsuit be against the selling broker's firm or against the buyer who 'dumped' the buy-side broker? Wouldn't the buy-side broker go after the buyer in this case?
I've read this thread quickly and am not sure whether you have a written, signed broker agreement, but if the term of the agreement is for a specific period of time (as they usually are on the seller side), once the contractual term has expired, I don't see why you have any obligation to your broker"friend" at all.
Hi folks, for clarity, let me reiterate the post.
My agreement with my former broker is OVER, the contract is finito. He railroaded me into adding him as a selling broker on a unit I found and saw it on my own, represented by a small brokers office that was willing to give me a discount because I was not brining in a sellers broker. My broker was an old friend (who felt entitled to a percentage in anything I was looking at to buy), even though we never agreed to it. I , in order to make peace agreed to list him as my broker on this unit I was looking at, not because I wanted to, or that he deserved it, I didn't want to jeopardize our friendship (BIG MISTAKE FOLKS, LEARN FROM MY LESSON, DO NOT DO REAL ESTATE TRANSACTIONS WITH FRIENDS!!).
Long story short, that same apartment is still on the market. My former broker has still NEVER seen the apartment, he only made bids (unaccepted) on my behalf. It is possible 10 months later the owner will go lower in price.
I still don't have a clear answer from anyone that tells me if I am responsible to my former broker in any way shape or form, if I go after this apartment on my own? Or is this a question I should ask my real estate lawyer instead?
Many thanks.
after 3 months passes by, you should be clear. i would approach the selling broker and let them know that if the seller will return with an acceptance or something that you would be willing to agree to, then contact you directly.
the other broker, without seeing the place and not really doing anything on your behalf, will not have any ties to the deal by then.
if you would like to speak to your attorney, just to make sure, do that to clear your mind and feel at ease.
Thanks ab_11218- your comment makes perfect sense.
Ab...why the 3 month delay if the contract has expired?
I'm confused about this:
1 - My agreement with my former broker is OVER, the contract is finito. He railroaded me into adding him as a selling broker on a unit I found and saw it on my own, represented by a small brokers office that was *** willing to give me a discount because I was not brining in a sellers broker. ***
2 - Subsequently, *** we never reached a suitable bid***, the apartment is still on the market 10 months later,
huntersburg- I will explain.
My contract with my broker (friend) ended when the last deal fell apart. It had an ending date and we are beyond that date. While under contract with the broker I found an apt. to buy on my own, (My broker was only engaged to help me sell my place, I never said he was engaged to help me FIND another home, it's an assumption he made which got ugly when I told him I found something on my own). Make sense? The small brokerage house knowing that I was not bringing in anohter broker to buy, was willing to discoun the price even more as they knew they weren't going to have to pay out a full 6%.
When I finally got railroaded by my broker to include him in the negotiation, we gave the sellers broker a bid which was rejected.........Now, 10 months later that same apt. is still available and I want to know if I have any legal obligations to my former broker if I start the negotiations all over again. Mind you, my broker (FRIEND), NEVER BOTHERED TO EVEN PHYSICALLY LOOK AT THE APARTMENT I WAS INTERESTED IN
you re looking at things from a contract/legal perspective. what you're not facing is: dump the so called "friend". He(she) is not your friend: just a broker. get rid of bad karma. a broker is rarely somebody's friend: just an acquaintance.they' re nice and polite and polished, but as u said the shark is lurking. watch your back
nicercatch: your comments are too real and not what I want to believe but they probably are all true. This is a friend of over 20 years (and I do mean a friend), but when doing business with him he hasn't at all behaved like one and has only looked after his own best interests, certainly not mine or I wouldn't have had all of these stories to tell. Well, I guess I learned a hard lesson.
What broker can I trust from what office? I'm serious........
unfortunately I speak from experience.