Twenty9th Park Madison

The project's sponsor still has 39 unsold units. That should tell you how well they are selling. Also, that 785 sq ft seems a lot smaller, so i'd measure it yourself.

I think this building had only 2 elevators.

Very cheap kitchen cabinets which I saw in one model apartment.
Shallow depths, contact paper over fiberboard core, and low-end hardware.

A friend who lives there tells me the whole building is aghast because the developer (they still control the company because of all the unsold units) recently put in the cheapest, ugliest art in the hallways, making the place look like a cheap hotel. Its funny how something so simple (they could easily change out the art) can do so much to ruin the look & feel of a place.

I saw a couple of units in there and didn't understand it either. The common roofdeck is unbelievable but the units themselves are small with crappy views of either the Gansevoort on the south or the back of an office building on the north. $1400/sq ft is crazy.

The building is featured in an episode of Selling New York which gives some insight into the remaining role of the sponsor.

The "remaining role of the sponsor" is, I am told, quite intrusive. Recently they indiscriminately hung the ugliest "modern art" on every floor, ruining the look of the place in the opinion of many. With nearly 40 unsold units in this building, the sponsor controls this place in a way that makes every owner feel more like a renter.

We rent here and have been thinking about buying. A few points. The kitchen cabinets are, as above, extremely cheap and basically crap. Any cabinets exposed to sunlight have already faded. The floors also are not very good. They look nice, but in reality there is a thin layer of wood and then mdf underneath. You could never sand the floors and they're so thin they dent easily. So neither of these will last and, ultimately, need gutted. Make sure you get limestone in the kitchen as the marble was a stupid choice for higher spec apartments as it just absords everything and shows stains. Bathrooms are nice enough although most showers leak a little and placement of simple things like toliet roll holders could have been given more thought. In addition we've also thought about the views. The south might be under threat from a 40 floor development on 28th and park (here under projects http://www.chdeportzamparc.com/) and there are quite a few old smaller builders to the north side which could be demolished in the future. I would probably look for a dual aspect apartment as a "hedge" to the views. In saying all this it is actually better than most new builds and the roof deck is amazing, although the bbqs break all the time. We've somewhat come to the conclusion we should just buy a nice apartment that needs done up and then fit it out properly.

Exagerated SF by about 20-25%!!

Ginger - i've also heard the BBQ's break w/ regularity, because they aren't gas or some "normal" technology but are instead "green" bbq's fired by...unicorn poop or some other enviro-friendly pellet that basically doesn't burn!

The BBQs I think might be gas however that then burns the wooden pellets. I assume this is meant to be better or give the food more flavour but has just proved to complicate things. Also I forgot to mention the A/C is a bit cheap too and in the summer will cover everything in a thin layer of dust. However, I still think it's a nice building, and the build is better than most new builds which are generally horrific.

agents need time to count their cash.....

hurry bf the mortgage limit sets lower.... hurry

Mayflower: 39 unsold units still held by the inept developer, Espais. If it's one of THEIR units the realt-whore can't make time to show you, you are probably better off...dealing with them sounds like a nightmare. I suspect they'll auction them off at some point and just get out of the building. Everyone else will take a bath.

I don't think these units will go to auction. The developer has paid off their construction loan so the unsold units are not a big deal. They're just trying to slowly sell them.

Nah, a bulge bracket investment bank will never go under. No Fking way. Nyc re never goes down.

Ginger - slowly trying to sell 39 units, when they are selling 1-2 yr, would mean they wouldn't be out of the building for ...18-39 yrs. Thank god i'm not an investor in Espais.

Dwsyne - The units are now selling faster than 1-2 year. It looks as if 7 have been sold so far in 2011. The sponsor has no debt on the building and they are renting out many of the unsold units at top prices. The sponsor seems to be doing just fine. I predict that the sponsor will be doing more construction in NYC.

CSN - are you vying for employee of the month?? 39 unsold units is still ridiculous, they ASK for top rents -- and perhaps get them from suckers - but a simple review of this website will confirm most 1br's here rent around $4K/mo or so, well below the carrying costs. Their was recently a near fistfight because they STILL haven't fixed the useless grills on the roof, and residents are up in arms because, while the lobby has lovely art work, the individuals floors (i.e., what you actually SEE when you come out of your unit) has the ugliest stuff imaginable. Let the users of this board come SEE for themselves rather than take your or my word for it.

All this because the building is still controlled by the developer, not the condo board. A private equity firm would consider an investment that they can't exit in 3-5 a failure; a real estate developer with 39 unsold units in a building that got its CO in 2008 is likewise underperforming.

I wouldn't buy here until Espais is in the rear-view mirror and a proper condo board can control the building for the benefit of its owner residents, as opposed to being controlled by the developer, FOR the developer. Owning in Twenty9th Park Madison is like RENTING elsewhere...

Dwayne, are you upset with the building because you could not buy there? The sponsor has no trouble covering their costs on the unsold units with the rents they are getting. It also seems the sponsor will not give big discounts to new buyers which protects the buyers in the building so units may not sell as quickly.

CSN - LOL that must be it.

Latest news is that the "sponsor" (developer for those of you who, unlike CSN, don't work for Espais) has bought the building next door to this one and wants to "merge" the two into one building. How much inconvenience would that cause existing residents? Ongoing construction, noise, the inevitable rats, etc. They also want to kill the gym, or move it to the new building (there's no connection yet btwn the buildings; you'd need to walk outside or through the cold garage to get there...isn't the point of having a gym n the building that you DON'T have to go outside??). I expect this construction, if approved, to go on for two years or more. Lovely. It's hard to imagine that will help current owners value the next two years.

Avoid this building until further notice.

Dwayne, you are correct in that a new building next door or nearby could easily take 2 years or more and would be a pain for residents in the Park Madison.

You are wrong, I do not work for Espais or know anything about them.

You said you have friends that live there. Do they own or rent?

Both. I know a couple that rent their, and through their parties on the roof i've come to know several individuals that own. Most seem fairly happy, with the exception of a few major inconveniences - the major eff-up of rendering the roof deck all but useless by installing grills that rarely work, and the horrible, horrible "art" installed on all floors by one boob who works for the developer. THis person may have been well meaning. Or, he may have been trying to help a struggling artist friend get a toe-hold in the market ("Why, my stuff is displayed at a large condo bldg downtown!"). WHo knows, he may have even been paid off to do this (i don't know this for a fact, just my opinion, protected by the first amendment). WHATEVER the reason, this fool has destroyed the quality of life many residents.

Well, hopefully I've seemed balanced to positive on the building but this has now sadly changed. The developers have just announced they are planning to erect another building right next door, to the west of the building, and anyone looking to buy needs to think about this seriously before purchasing.

At the moment they don't actually own the adjacent buildings but clearly must be in contract. They are currently trying to negotiate with the current residents to buy the air rights so that the new building can be built snug to the current building.

Clearly this just isn't great. The new building is going to be taller but won't have its own roof, so the idea with it being snug is to share the current buildings roof with the new building. Imagine double the number of people on that roof!

There are a lot of questions unanswered but its clear views to the west will be lost, that the penthouse floors will seem less valuable when compared to the taller sister building next door, and that you'll be living next door to a building site for years.

The whole handling of the situation seems very underhand as obviously nobody knew about this when purchasing, but it’s apparent the developers had been thinking about this for years. Residents are now being told its going ahead in some variation regardless, and the only hope is that enough people vote against selling the air rights which will force a less economical thinner structure to be built, which can't share as many facilities. The developer might think twice about this. Sadly, because the developer still owns a number of apartments, they get the votes from those and some residents - oddly - seem to be in favour too. It's likely the A-line apartments will lose a significant amount of light if the larger structure gets built which is most probably giving the tally of votes so far.

You would think the board would oppose this but they seem to be oddly quiet. The mind boggles as to what might have been agreed privately to get some people onboard. So, in conclusion, this is a disaster for existing residents and potential buyers need to think seriously about this before buying. Overall. A disaster.

New Yorkers commonly know that their views are not protected unless they are adjacent to a park, one of the rivers, a cemetary, and possibly a school. Why would people who bought on 29th and Madison, not historically a particularly nice area, expect any different?

I'm not surprised; this is consistent with observations about Espais posted above. The thing people need to realize is they don't have to give in to this. There is a good bit of capital behind Espais US (namely, the Spanish parent) but not a lot of intellectual capital: There are really only two decision makers involved in the whole project. I won't name them as I don't wish to be sued, but one is a typically arrogant Spaniard (what,exactly, there is to be arrogant about is not readily apparent). The other is an intellectually challenged buffoon with a history of making horrible decisions for the building. (Those aren't facts, of course, they're just my opinon, protected by the first amendment). Frankly if owners of this building can't overcome these two lightweights, the tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum of NYC real estate, they deserve to have their quiet enjoyment disrupted the next 2 years and their views and roofdeck ruined forever (The roofdeck aleady has challenges; see above...what would it be like w/ 2X the number of people?) If you think your Condo Board is doing too little, vote new people on next time. Better yet, ORGANIZE! Get some $$$ together and file lawsuits. Projects like this often can't be defeated, but i've seen them delayed up to ten years. Sometimes the developer fights through to the end but often they just give up, as the cost of carrying a project whose payoff keeps getting delayed, and which generates such bad publicity for the developer, becomes too much. If, as was alleged above, this value-destroying project was contemplated at the time they sold units to existing owners, that seems like a VERY material fact that may have been concealed from current owners. If just several owners band together, the costs of engaging counsel is reasonable. File lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit. Delay, delay, stall, delay, lawsuit, stall, delay. It's been done many, many times before. Perhaps the attorneys on the board can elabortate.

I believe there were some plans presented which were dated 2008. If Espais had any sense they'd destroy them but, if existing owners could get a copy, that would be easy proof this had been under consideration for some time. Regardless, I'm not sure there is a case to be made there though - were they obligated to mention it? Probably not.

I just can't get over why owners are not objecting more. Thankfully I've only been looking to buy but now I wouldn't touch it. Sad really, I actually really like the building.

Ginger - whether they were obligated to tell you depends on whether they truly had a plan that was likely to be undertaken at the time they sold you your unit. And, of course, whether you suffered a loss in value as a result.

Yes, agreed. I think the units should probably suffer some sort of mark to market loss if the new building gets developed. Downsides being the building disruption, reduction of west facing views, sharing of the roofdeck with potentially twice the number of people (quite large negative I think), and possibility that some of the problems in the existing building are rectified in the new building making the old one less appealing. Upside is probably that the new building is likely to be sold at higher prices which might help drag 29th up but how real those print are is another thing as I know some units have printed at higher than actual dealing price.

The other potential upside is that more high-end buildings might turn that non-neighborhood into something better. Right now, it's a no man's land.