Another Peter Schiff prediction...
Started by sniper
over 15 years ago
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Member since: Dec 2008
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some from the past: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCv32qaINIQ&feature=player_embedded#at=105 The new prediction: Most economists concede that a lasting general recovery is unlikely without a recovery in the housing market. A marked increase in defaults and foreclosures from today’s already elevated levels could produce losses that overwhelm banks and trigger another, deeper financial crisis.... [more]
some from the past: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCv32qaINIQ&feature=player_embedded#at=105 The new prediction: Most economists concede that a lasting general recovery is unlikely without a recovery in the housing market. A marked increase in defaults and foreclosures from today’s already elevated levels could produce losses that overwhelm banks and trigger another, deeper financial crisis. Study after study has shown that defaults go up when falling prices put mortgage holders “underwater.” As a result, the trajectory of home prices has tremendous economic significance. Earlier this year market observers breathed easier when national prices stabilized. But the “robo-signing”-induced slowdown in the foreclosure market, the recent upward spike in home mortgage rates, and third quarter 2010 declines in the Standard & Poor’s Case–Shiller home-price index—including very bad October numbers reported this week—have sparked concerns that a “double dip” in home prices is probable. A longer-term view of home price trends should sharply magnify this fear. Even those economists worried about renewed price dips would be unlikely to believe that the vicious contractions of 2007 and 2008 (where prices fell about 30% nationally in just two years) could return. But they underestimate how distorted the market had become and how little it has since normalized. By all accounts, the home price boom that began in January 1998, when the previous 1989 peak was finally surpassed, and topped out in June 2006 was extraordinary. The 173% gain in the Case-Shiller 10-City Index (the only monthly data metric that predates the year 2000) in those nine years averaged an eye-popping 19.2% per year. As we know now, those gains had very little to do with market fundamentals, and everything to do with distortionary government policies that set off a national mania for real-estate wealth and a torrent of temporarily easy credit. If we assume the bubble was artificial, we can instead imagine that home prices should have followed a more traditional path during that time. In stock-market terms, prices should have followed a trend line. When you do these extrapolations (see lower line in the nearby chart), a sobering picture emerges. In his book “Irrational Exuberance,” Yale economist Robert Shiller (co-creator of the Case-Shiller indices along with economists Karl Case and Allan Weiss), determined that in the 100 years between 1900 and 2000, home prices in the U.S. increased an average 3.35% per year, just a tad above the average rate of inflation. This period includes the Great Depression when home prices sank significantly, but it also includes the frothy postwar years of the 1950s and ’60s, as well as the strong market of the early-to-mid 1980s, and the surge in the late ’90s. In January 1998 the 10-City Index was at 82.7. If home prices had followed the 3.35% annual 100 year trend line, then the index would have arrived at 126.7 in October 2010. This week, Case-Shiller announced that figure to be 159.0. This would suggest that the index would need to decline an additional 20.3% from current levels just to get back to the trend line. … Where would prices go if these props were removed? Given the current conditions in the real-estate market, with bloated inventories, 9.8% unemployment, a dysfunctional mortgage industry and shattered illusions of real-estate riches, does it makes sense that prices should simply fall back to the trend line? I would argue that they should overshoot on the downside. With a bleak economic prospect stretching far out into the future, I feel that a 10% dip below the 100-year trend line is a reasonable expectation within the next five years, particularly if mortgage rates rise to more typical levels of 6%. That would put the index at 114.02, or prices 28.3% below where we are now. Even a 5% dip would put us at 120.36, or 24.32% below current prices. If rates stay low, price dips may be less severe, but inflation will be higher. From my perspective, homes are still overvalued not just because of these long-term price trends, but from a sober analysis of the current economy. The country is overly indebted, savings-depleted and underemployed. Without government guarantees no private lenders would be active in the mortgage market, and without ridiculously low interest rates from the Federal Reserve any available credit would cost home buyers much more. These are not conditions that inspire confidence for a recovery in prices. [less]
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W67. always said we'd overshoot on the way down. No?
One minor statistical quibble: The value that represents a 10% overshoot below the trend line in 2015 should be calculated relative to the trend-line value in 2015, not 2010.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. Niels Bohr
time will tell...who are the loudest (analaysts, media, etc.) voices on "2011 will see RE recovery," if any?
My favorite predictors are the talking heads on CNBC who seem to forget the predictions they made 24 hours ago. Erego they are always right.
2015, would mean 3.5% compounded for 5 yrs. No quibble.
Ie. More of an azz kicking.
w67: I think it's actually less of an azz-kicking. According to my feeble Excel skills, a 9% drop over five years would bring values back to the trend line value for January 2016 (144.84); an 18% drop would achieve the predicted 10% overshot to the downside.
I don't know where he's getting a trend-line value of 126.7 for October 2010. I think that figure should be about 122, based on compound annual 3.35% increases from a January 1998 start value of 82.7. If 126.7 is the correct number for October 2010, then the trend-line number for January 2016 is a little over 150, and it only takes a 5.5% drop from the current value of 159 to get there, or a 15% drop to overshoot by 10%.
Peter Schiff brings up some interesting points, however I believe a 20% decline is no slam dunk prediction. While I share Mr. Schiff's opinion on the negative aspects of government price supports of any kind (including real estate), I do not believe they will end any time soon and would not be shocked if the government actually introduces new ones. The banks and the government have tremendous real estate exposure, strong structural job growth is not likely and it's all to easy for the government to revert to the same bad behaviors that brought us this mess.
I'll also add a second reason, mean reversion. We've already gone down quite a bit and more often than not prices seem to come back more than fall further(think stock market after DOW bottomed in 2008.
If the government ended all our real estate subsidies, we probably would see a drop in housing prices and improved affordability for new home purchases at the same time. I just don't see our elected officials doing this anytime soon.
My mistake: I skipped a year. So the October 2010 figure is right, and the January 2016 number is around 150. So a drop of a little less than 6% from 159 over the next five years puts values back at the long-term trend line.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. Niels Bohr
Not at all.
I predict that the sun will rise tomorrow again and will repeat that astonishing performance the day after tomorrow, too. Not sure yet about that third day ;-)
I thought Yogi Berra said that.
Whatever happened to all of Schiff's dollar collapse predictions?
Schiff in 2002: Nasdaq 500 and Dow 4000.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/106824-being-wrong-for-five-years-makes-peter-schiff-right-now
Schiff in 2008: "But we could see $150 to $200 [oil] next year.
http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/articles/2008/05/30/permabear-peter-schiffs-worst-case-scenario.html?PageNr=2
Yet another wrong prediction...
Schiff in 2008: "I think gold is going to hit $2,000 an ounce next year."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5qdkPlwvrc&feature=related
Schiff in 2008: "Americans are through buying cars right now"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gkUFr5gHPM&feature=related
November 2010: Car sales INCREASE 17% year over year:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B03TQ20101201
I sat next to him AND two Fox newsies at a Cal fundraiser. My tongue was bleeding by the end of the night I bit it so much.
Socialist, you really destroyed Schiff. Now jason needs Band Aid.
Euro-Pacific Capital's business model is international stocks and precious metals. As such it should come as no surprise that anyone and everyone connected with the firm is bearish on the U.S. Peter Schiff may believe in the firm's philosophy or not, but communicated the bearish U.S. views is "good business"