construction quality in new development

Lots of things get done last right at the end. Once you close anything wrong goes through the check-list and that can take up to a year to get done. If you can gain access prior to closing you may wish to communicate with your lawyer and hold off on closing until the apartment is in ship shape and brstol fashion.

have you spken to the residents already living there?

personally, the fixing of these imperfections would the the farthest thing from my mind. i'd be more concerned with the general work standards of people who put in crooked doors and cabinets in the VISIBLE parts of the building. is the rest of it just glued together?

if you have a good lawyer, you will not close until everything is done. do not agree to let them fix it after you close.

M3linda,

This is not to scare you but it is a fact you should be prepard for:

I am a contractor and I have been called in to fix many many problems with new developements .I am sure when your apartment will look great before you move in but the developers need to get done asap and so do the contractors working on it. Things that should get done do not always get done.

Examples:

I am currently working in a three bedroom apartment that my clients purchased 2 years ago. We are replacing all the wood flooring, skim coating all the walls and ceilings (seams were not properly taped and spackled) and fixing smaller problems.

I just looked at a job this weekend where the person has not moved in and their are areas in the bathroom that need to be grouted and the whole apartment needs chaulking pretty much everywhere. Not that big a deal.

Another project in Brooklyn, floors had to be ripped out, same with a bathroom. The developer did pay my client but it was a nightmare for them.

Again this isnt to scare you but make sure you really look at everything prior to moving in. See if you can see any vertical lines in the sheetrock, that would be where two boards came together. Look at all corners to see if there is any cracking. Look in the radiators to see if they left any holes, you dont want holes.

I always do a walkthrough with a top quality building inspector BEFORE the final closing. They provide a thorough report as to the obvious (and also things you wouldn't even know to look for) exigencies that need to be carefully reviewed before I close on any unit, anywhere. It costs about $500 - $1,000, and is worth every penny (if the inspector is top notch!).

In my experience, developers never correct any punch-list items more complicated than adjusting screws and squirting caulk all over the place. Beyond that, they drag their heels, and practically speaking you have no recourse.

alanhart: I respectfully disagree. As long as the punch list is submitted in advance of the closing, there is PLENTY of recourse.

i would also pay close attention under the sinks, especially the kitchen, to ensure that there are no holes/spaces where the pipes come from the wall. those are the typical places where rodents come through.

Do not close until punch list items have been repaired to your satisfaction. In addition, close at your own peril if you are doing this without retaining a real estate lawyer to be your advocate and to go over the contract with a fine tooth comb. Penny saved, pound foolish.

A very good website www.brickunderground.com put up a video I made about this very topic. It has a link to a longer video as well

Good video! Here's the URL, case brickunderground moves it: http://vimeo.com/18705932

Reputation of Sponsor and the various parties is extremely important when making a "new con construction" purchase. Nobody views a new Kia, Honda or BMW as being of equal quality/reliability. Clearly new construction is not homogeneous and builders and architects are not fungible.

Thanks NWT

This is what you get from developers who hire non-union illegal alien day laborers.

Manhattan high rise construction is largely union.

Not for residential buildings.

You pass by a Bovis, HRH site, etc always says union

my advise would be to schedule your walk thru at least 10 days prior to your closing, this gives them time to fix the things on your punch list. Make sure you put everything on the list and if you are unhappy or concerned tell them you will not closed unless it is fixed, or there is a contractual agreement to fix it or provide $$ comp for you to fix it.
Send a copy of the punch list to your lawyer.
And don't close unless you are happy.

A closet door that needs tweaking is one thing. When the front door doesn't fit the frame correctly, that's a bit more than twisting a screw on hinge and will probably never be exactly right IMO. Same with drafts coming in the windows; you can caulk around the frames, but if the windows themselves are so crappy or installed so badly wind comes between the double-hung panes,how do you fix that short of replacing the windows? A kitchen where the cabinets are all messed up? Likely no matter what they do, all it will be is covering up poor workmanship that pervades the project.

What would concern me the most, is what others have said: what else is poorly done that you CAN"T SEE? What is about to/already dripping inside the walls? Which items have such poor finishes that in 6 months they'll need replacing (like knobs, faucets, awful CAT wiring for internet/cable, floors that will warp and separate, etc.

There's wisdom in what is said when buying a boat: look at the hardware on the decks and condition of the similar little things. If not maintained well, that is likely indicative of the overall level of care the current owner extended to the more critical infrastructure of the vessel. Someone who meticulously maintains the engines and mechanical systems is also the kind of person to keep the fittings polished. Now, granted some people only pay attention to the visible stuff and let the hidden things go to hell--so if all is polished you still have to really look carefully underneath. But that's not this situation. What we are saying is that if not even the visible stuff shows attention to detail and pride in workmanship, you are in for a world of hurt because those are signs that the entire thing is built like crap.

Be forewarned: all the signs are there and you've seen them. Ignore them at your own peril. Don't cry foul later. You are on notice. I'd move on.

NYC Matt,

It was a union job as most of them are

I would look at the building on Streeteasy and figure out which 3 or 4 units closed first and go knock on their door. You will find out quickly that way. That video linked above showed minor issues, punch list items are easy, you should be concerned about major systems in the building - HVAC, Boiler, elevators, roof/ leaks, windows installed properly, large appliances, etc -these are what is important, the molding and scratched cabinets are very minor in comparison.

A friend of mine moved into a new building last spring as did all the other owners. What they didn't know what the vent at the top of the internal fire escape was installed properly - it was far to large and let in to much cold air. Well, when the blizzard came a few weeks ago, a sprinkler pipe froze and exploded in the fire escape and they had a massive leak. No walk through will catch that - probably even if a professional inspection guy is with u. Know your sponsor and his contractors before you buy or you will get to know them very well afterwards.

Cpalms,

I agree that the video showed a minor issue, however what it did not show is we had to remove all the wood flooring, self lever the floor and install a new floor as well as skim coat the entire apartment. That is pretty major when you spend over 2 mil for the apartment. They also had to move out while this work was being done, could it be worse of course but that shouldnt happen either.

Two questions:

1. If you buy a new construction, and find out after you moved in that there are construction quality issues such as leaking roof, cracking wall, etc, can you still hold the developer accountable? I think there will be a lot of issues that won't become apparent until you move in.

2. For new construction, how do you determine the quality of construction, especially if it's handled by a developer with no track record? Do you guys typically hire an inspector? Do you ask your lawyer to include in the contract that you have the ability rescind your offer in the event that the apartment doesn't pass the inspection?

DO by all means speak to current residents but not one or two- I'd suggest you make it a point of requesting the location of the owner's internal website if you are seriously considering a purchase in a building. Many will approve you but if not, do go to the building and be open about the reason for your inquiry- most people are happy to talk to you.

There doesn't seem to be any reliable way that I am aware of to know which contractor or developer has the best 'reputation' - (building to building there can be a lot of differences in construction quality with the same developer using different teams) other than hearsay or anecdotes garnered from a website like this or curbed. I always google the building's address and locate discussions on the building. Those methods have inherent faults- who has an ax to grind and who and their lawyer might not have done due diligence before the purchase. There are a variety of ways of learning about issues that not all lawyers might take advantage of- for one if there's a coop or condo association, there are board minutes that can tell you a lot about the internal workings of a building including building complaints and you are entitled to have your lawyer look at them on premises. My lawyer also submits a questionnaire to the management company, the results of which can potentially uncover issues too.

At one time I might not have had the most experience in making a punch list because I'd never purchased new construction- but with my better than limited knowledge of construction from past purchases and the great advice from the management company (in some cases your agent will accompany you!) a few weeks prior to close I gave what I thought was my best shot and everything was corrected prior to my final inspection- including a bathroom sink and cabinet that was not put in level and had to be taken off and put back on. (Please note- if your apartment is or was a 'model' apartment it gets a great deal of foot traffic so WATCH the floor for pockmarks from heels and shoes! I'd ask for a sanding in ANY model apt.)

Several months after moving in the wood floor buckled near the kitchen (a fairly common complaint in new construction when real wood is the flooring) and within what seemed like only hours my building manager had brought in the floor contractor to replace and reset every offending plank and the ones near to them. The same apartment exhibited leaks in the outer wall to an inner bedroom wall that turned out to be far more serious involving the original contractor and a major pipe embedded in the wall- again it was all resolved, replastered, painted and repaired shockingly within a reasonable time frame.

Neither of these faults could be seen from an original punchlist but were a result of some common things occurring in so much new construction. The worst offenders are those really expensive heating-AC units (HVAC's) which carry little or no warranty despite having a replacement/repair cost that can go into the thousands. I'd go so far as to say that putting those units on for a few hours won't do it but you should use them often in the first year. You could hire a professional to go through them all when you do the punch list but sometimes its your only recourse to get good coverage after-market on those things- the units are notorious for breakdowns in the first few years.

Its something to know that legitimate complaints can be resolved with a minimum of hassle when the management company and your building manager stay on top of things on your behalf- to me that's the mark of a good building. That, and a good coop-condo board are usually your best recourse after you've lived in it for the first year or two.

Thanks for all of the advice and the very interesting video Primer05. I actually recognize the building in that video and had considered purchasing there, but am glad I didn't. I remember that the model units in that building looked nice and wouldn't have known that there would have been all these problems 2 years later.

M3linda,

The shame is that a lot of the newer ones are like that. It really is hard to tell. You really should bring someone weather it be an architect or your contractor, the more eyes the better