20 West 77th, 8A -- ridiculous!

Keep looking for a bargain. You're far less likely to find one on a museum/CPW block. It looks like the window for discounted prices on special apartments is closed until the next financial crisis.

PMG: Not true. Here's a much more recent sale on the block, also at a "bargain" level (if the prior sale at 20W77 can be considered a bargain):
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/525041-coop-40-west-77th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

That one is a room smaller than the "A" line at 20W77, but offers similar Museum frontage in a much better building. These apartments aren't once-in-a-lifetime opportunities. They sell where they sell because they need a ton of work.

#8A is in a different category: renovated, with superior views. It is priced off #10A, not #4A. I would expect it sell in the $3MM neighborhood, about 15% below the 2008 sale of #10A.

Fktard pmg. Oh no what do we have here. A preemptive buy now or be priced out forever!!!!!!!! Fking pmg.

W81, your example, I believe has one less bedroom and one less bath. This one is fully renovated per the description. It is probably worth a million more on those attributes alone (not that I shop large apartments).

Agreed. Sorry if my point was unclear. Your assertion was that bargains like 20 W77 #4A are a thing of the past. I pointed out that similar apartments (Museum-facing, family-size wrecks) can still be had for similar prices. I don't think #4A was a particular bargain, but if it was one, then bargains are still available.

Pmg..... WTF r u talking about? Bargains still around would mean the 'bargains' that were are now 'mkt', no? Where'd you get your fktardedness MBA, DeVry?

West81st -- you seem very wise. So you think my estimate of the market's move in the last year is right -- you just don't think 8F at 40 W. and 4A at 20 W. are reasonable comps for 8A? Have you seen any of the three, or are you going mainly on description?

But even by your estimate, this apartment is still priced at least 500K high...

West81st--do you consider the sales price for 8F a bargain? I visited hoping to be wowed and was really unimpressed. Yes, there is great museum frontage but the apartment felt dark and oddly claustrophobic. I don't know whether the ceilings were lower than average or whether it was just a function of the heavy colors and northern exposure but something was definitely off. Needed a good $300k+ worth of reno to boot.

I was very interested in 6A(?) in '05, had trouble selling at 2.6ishm. For some reason, maybe the narrow & dark feel of the apt despite the park view and the less-generous albeit 7 room layout causes this building to suffer in comparison to 40 & 6 (I believe we discussed this). Also, some buyers absolutely need to have a full-time doorman. Always struck me that the full-floor (A+B) with common hallway bought from co-op would be a very usable (though unclassic 12) with 4 bedrooms in the rear & 1 bedroom with double LR in front.

downtownrenter: Thanks. Yes, I agree with your general read on the market. I just think #4A and #8A appeal to different buyer pools, and that #8A figures to sell for more than the sum of #4A's price and the cost of renovating #4A to bring it up to #8A's standard. I haven't seen #8A yet. I saw #4A twice. Never saw #8F, but got a very thorough - and fairly scathing - report from a reliable source (which made #8F a fair comp for #4A, because I had written a scathing review of #4A myself).

Bramstar: No, I don't think #8F was a bargain. That was part of my point, which I didn't make particularly well. I simply meant that deals like #4A are still with us, because #4A wasn't a bargain either. The strange handling of that listing prolonged the ordeal, but in the end I think the sellers got a very fair price.

West81st -- just realized they don't allow dogs, which is a dealbreaker anyway. (And so dumb for an apartment 200 feet from Central Park.) Another question, then: do you have any opinion on 225 CPW, Apt. 111 -- first floor, walk past the service elevator, only 2 baths, and all this can be yours for $2.7 MM? We saw it a couple weeks back and found it oddly charming, but the drawbacks are impossible to ignore. Do you think it goes for near ask?

Downtownrenter: I saw 111 almost three years ago. Do they still have the Neverland mural in the second bedroom? I recall an odd juxtaposition between that room and the adjacent, bachelor-pad bath. Anyway, it's a very difficult apartment to price; any prediction would just be a SWAG.

Unfortunately the current owner bought at the peak and is now reluctant to sell at the current market price. it's a problem with sellers who bought at the peak in '06 and '07 and now wanna sell. Anyway, I had one of those old-ish uws coop apts similar to this one. Be careful with these buildings....the coop boards are usually very unreasonable with respect to renovations, etc.... Also, the elevators in these bldgs are usually extremely slow. I know it sounds like a ridiculous reason to avoid a bldg. but it is such a hassle at times. I'd say, go condo and go new development

West81st -- You have a great memory -- the creepy Neverland mural is still in place. So is there anything you would call reasonably priced in the UWS in the 2.5-2.7 range? Good light a plus -- outdoor space a big plus.

OK, here's my list of reasonably-priced UWS sevens:

[Cue crickets chirping]

Chirp, chirp... :-) Here are a couple I've noticed:

This just came onto the market--no outdoor space but layout looks good:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/581348-coop-465-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

This has a nice roof deck:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/566375-coop-685-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

Bram,

I'd argue that that unit at 685 WEA (which has been on the market for nearly a year now; I know I saw it when another broker had it listed last summer) is a six, not a seven.

and you might want to check out the separate thread on 465 WEA, where the baths are discussed.

I'd throw in 355 Riverside as my fave, but it is north of the UWS as we know it.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Downtownrenter didn't actually stipulate a seven. I added that condition because it's hard for a six to be "reasonably priced" at $2.5-2.7MM unless it has park or river views.

Anyway, 685 WEA #10B is definitely a six, albeit a big one configured with three full-size bedrooms. Because it's a six, the trade-off for the third bedroom is that the former maid's room serves as a dinette. (It also doubles, strangely, as a laundry room.) Maybe prominent broker #3 will be the charm there. Two of the best couldn't deliver a price that was acceptable to the owners.

I think it's fair to say that at any given time, very few listings are "reasonably-priced" in an absolute sense, such that we would all agree they represent good value. Well-priced listings sell quickly; that's the proof that they were reasonably-priced in the first place.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think the best opportunities for a particular buyer - among listed properties - are the listings whose strengths and weaknesses match up well to the buyer's priorities. As an example, consider 140 RSD #19K:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/561279-coop-140-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york

For a buyer seeking three bedrooms and river views in a prime location, who isn't fussy about condition and doesn't put a premium on formal dining, #19K could be quite attractive. The 2009 sale of a horrific wreck three floors down seems to have set the market; #19K will sell for more, but the premium will be much smaller than the sellers hoped.

On the other hand, for somebody who wants a pristine chef's kitchen, a grand dining room, high ceilings and low monthlies, and who rates a river view only as a "nice to have", #19K makes no sense at all.

So my advice - again, stating the obvious - is to develop a clear idea of the features that matter most to you. A purchase based on your own priorities may not get you a standing ovation on Streeteasy, but it can still be good value. Spinnaker1 has been a particularly eloquent advocate of this approach.

Good points, W81. As an example, for us the main criterion is great river views, pref classic 6 or larger. So a fab WEA 7 or 8 that faces east just is not going to cut it for us, even if the price seems attractive.

By the way, with regards to 19K--it is in much, much better shape than 16K was. That place was not only a complete wreck, but a pigsty as well. Word on the street was that two of the owner's grown kids were living there and were doing everything possible to scuttle a sale. That said, I do think the unit traded at or around a fair estate-condition value, it just took forever for a sale to happen.

19K is in better shape, but still needs a decent amount of work. It is absolutely overpriced at its current ask, and the 16K comp won't help one bit regardless of the difference in condition between the two units.

Speaking of the Normandy (sorry to veer off onto a tangent) I will be curious to see the sales price for 18A, which just went into contract. IMO the ask there was significantly overpriced considering the shabby condition of the apartment (bad early 80s built-ins, run-down bathrooms and kitchen). IMO a good example of a 'well-priced' unit at the Normandy was the estate-condition penthouse, which asked $3.3 and sold quickly for $3.2.

Hijack:

Maybe it's distorted by the lens of this board -- because SE'ers definitely have a very specific take on the market -- but I'm in general startled by how UWS shoppers talk about their needs in terms of light, space & renovation, putting building/location in fourth place, if at all. So much of what I do downtown is to translate to people moving from uptown the "hierarchy" of buildings, and what they can expect of a particular co-op in terms of living experience... I feel that except for potential CPW buyers, I never hear that on this board.

Care to comment, anyone?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali: Location is a big part of the conversation, but with more emphasis on zoned elementary schools and access to subways than keeping up with the Rockefellers. Besides, from a Social-Register-according-to-Tom-Wolfe standpoint, there are no truly "good" buildings on the West Side. So once you cross Fifth Avenue (and certainly, once you pass the San Remo and Beresford), you might as well look for light, space and condition because you are beyond the Pale anyway.

Some UWS coops have clearer personas than others. For example, 110-118 RSD has long been a magnet for writers and other intellectuals. (No accident that Paul Krugman spent his Nobel money there.) Even in those buildings, the boards generally value diversity - for practical as well as political reasons. Actually, to the extent the personas persist, I think they are largely a function of self-selection: buyers picking the building, rather than the Board filtering the buyers. In general, though, you're right: most buyers start out with no strong preference for one building over another.

Ha! That reminds me of the snobby, old-boy-club-member, flat-butted-golf-pants-wearing UES son of a family friend who once told me he'd TRIED to send me a Christmas card, but simply could NOT find my name in the Social Register. Gimme a D for Doooosssh...