How to Bust Unions: Wisconsin Edition

Instead of attacking unions, private sector workers should be outraged over outsourcing and H1-Bs taking their jobs. That's why their incomes have fallen.

No- increasing property taxes, income taxes or sales taxes to boost govt revenues to make continue to pay for those astronomical health insurance and pension and salary costs for govt workers wont hurt the average citizen one dime!

And private sector workers cant go to their bosses/owners because the money is not there- the private sector cant make up lost revenues or business by passing a law that requires regular people to pay more taxes.

Corporate profits are at an all time high. Of course the money is there.

And the same peoeple who want to lay off govt. workers will complain when little Timmy has 60 other kids in his class instead of 25.

Socialist, you are confused.

Laying off state workers won't affect THEIR precious little Ethans and Madisons, as Dalton and Collegiate don't employ state workers.

Silly!

Right there's no recession.

My company just had the 2 worst years in its 45 year history.

Most people here had to take a salary cut and are happy to just keep their jobs. Health insurance premiums went up 2x in the last year. But hey, go ahead and increase my taxes so Mr & Mrs govt union-workers dont have to pay a dime to their healthcare plans or pensions.

Blame govt. policy for your increasing health insurance costs. In a single payer system, your costs would be drastically lower. Your health care costs have NOTHING to do with govt. workers.

Yes they do- I have no money to pay more taxes so govt workers to help them pay for benefits i dont have myself.

What's telling is that in Indiana and other states, these union-busting laws would apply to PRIVATE SECTOR UNIONS as well. So its clearly NOT only about fiscal responsibility. It is about destroying unions.

See:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160240828766056.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLETopStories

Excessive tax burdens due to extravagent public union benefits affect the business environment and private workers.

The U.S. has poured more and more money into the education system the last 30 years with no positive result in achieving higher educational standards. But we handed out a lot more money to teachers' unions.

If unions would accept reasonable benefits instead of the lavish benefits they now get, layoffs wouldn't be needed.

Keep spouting the bumperstickers, LICcomm.

Unions have accepted reasonable benefits, and overzealous radical rightwingers, financed by billionaires, are trying to remove those reasonable benefits.

Kindly compare the benefits offered to union employees with those offered to CEO employees, and get back to me on the benefits accruing to each individual.

5thGenNYer, you need to learn basic personal financial skill, chiefly budgeting. If you feel your personal overspending problem has psychological/spiritual/religious roots, you might consider joining a meeting or 90 of Debtors Anonymous. Mum's the word.

Do you blame all of your problems on unions 5thGenNYer?

alan obviously thinks that tens of thousands of union workers who retire before age 50 and get lifetime annual pension payments in excess of $100k per year are not extravagent.

oh yes, alan loves handouts and systems that facilitate handouts.

why do you hate working class people so much LICC? I got news for you: you are working class and so are 99% of your neighbors out there in LIC. Stop trying to pretend to be rich when we all know your not. You live in the LIC toilet because you were priced out of Manhattan. ANd because of that, you take out your anger on unions.

"5thGenNYer, you need to learn basic personal financial skill, chiefly budgeting. If you feel your personal overspending problem has psychological/spiritual/religious roots, you might consider joining a meeting or 90 of Debtors Anonymous. Mum's the word."

I save over 50% of my take home salary. Because unlike govt workers I know that my company can lay people off. Why should more of my take money go to them? I already pay 40% plus in taxes.

"Do you blame all of your problems on unions 5thGenNYer?"

When did I blame my problems on the unions?? I said that i didnt want to pay more taxes for them keep their expensive generous benefits.

"Because unlike govt workers I know that my company can lay people off."

ok, first I thoguht your complaints were legitimate, but now your just an anti union zealot. Unless you live under rock and don't have access to ANY news sources, you would have known that thousands upon thosuands of government workers have bene laid off. Bloomberg's latest budget calls for the lay off of 4,666 teachers. And that's not counting layoffs at other agencies.

"I said that i didnt want to pay more taxes for them keep their expensive generous benefits."

Then move.

Yes- the non tenured teachers who have been there for less than 5 years.

and if they would just accept reasonable adjustments to pension and healthcare benefits they could all keep their jobs.

i dont want them to lose their jobs. i want them to realize that the money isnt and to adjust accordingly.

"I save over 50% of my take home salary." ... then you should be saving more. And more. And even more. And work harder and harder and harder.

You earn the median NYC salary of $45,000 for a family of four, and you're only saving $22,500? Irresponsible. Save 75% for retirement. That leaves you nearly $1000 per month, pretax, for your family's expenses -- much more even than what people in Botswana have. Get it together, dude.

"and if they would just accept reasonable adjustments to pension and healthcare benefits they could all keep their jobs."

You sound awfully like LICC dope. Did you forget to switch screen names? You proably should have done that before you made that comment and blew your cover.

5thGenNYer, there's no shame in joining a religious cult:
http://debtorsanonymous.org/

LICcomm, you prefer handUPs, I know. Well, I have my hand up for you, the outer pairs of fingers retracted.

Yeah, I was wondering if "reasonable" is in this week's GOP propaganda phrase book. Probably.

I guess "reasonable" is the word of the day in this week's talking points, courtesy of Charles and David Koch.

Do you think Richard Cohen is an anti-union zealot? Do you believe in layoffs based on merit, or on LIFO?

"My company just had the 2 worst years in its 45 year history. Most people here had to take a salary cut and are happy to just keep their jobs."

5th Generation, is your company's CEO included in that "most people" category? Or did he aggregate all those salary cuts from you worker bees -- who were "happy" to do it! -- into a nice fat bonus for himself?

never heard of Richard Cohen. Is he a teabagger?

never mind, now i know who Cohen is, courtesy of Media Matters:

Here's what passes for a "liberal" at the Washington Post‎ - Oct 19, 2010
Richard Cohen, the Washington Post 's pro-torture "liberal ...‎ - Sep 1, 2009
Richard Cohen defends financial execs & business media; blasts ...‎ - Mar 17, 2009
Cohen faulted "colleagues" for portraying Gore "as a serial ...‎ - Feb 27, 2007
Richard Cohen should probably stop writing about war | Media ...‎ - Dec 2, 2009
Richard Cohen again minimizes Roman Polanski's crimes
Richard Cohen should probably stop writing about war | Media ...‎ - Dec 2, 2009

why does somewhereelse constantly make uninformed comments and then after I correct them, he flees? Today it was about robo trains. Last time it was about a shortage of engieners. Every time he makes a dumb comment, he runs. Maybe he is auditioning to become a Wisconsin state Senator.

5thGenNYer, there's no shame in joining a religious cult:
http://debtorsanonymous.org/

I have zero debt. I never had any debt in my whole life. I am a resonsible citizen who doesnt ask others to pay for my stupid moves- ie buying a house, car, etc that i cant afford.

--

"My company just had the 2 worst years in its 45 year history. Most people here had to take a salary cut and are happy to just keep their jobs."

5th Generation, is your company's CEO included in that "most people" category? Or did he aggregate all those salary cuts from you worker bees -- who were "happy" to do it! -- into a nice fat bonus for himself"

The revenues we took in were barely enough to cover costs of running the business. We are a small company of 40 employees.

---
Get it together, dude.

I save plenty more than most others. And i'm not a dude.

if working for the govt. is so great, then why have you not made the switch 5thGenNyer? Can't pass an 8th grade level civils ervice test?

No -i have an MBA why would i do that??

And i am not a parasite.

I think we've seen a new low in American Politics. Indiana Democrats and just asked for assylum in another state as well.

dudette, the government doesn't hold MBAs against job candidates.

RS, Indiana wants you, and you CAN go back there! (Hi to rufus if you can find him in his mom's basement.)

well, I stand corrected. 5thGener knows better than all of us because he has an MBA. He is too good to work for the govt. because he has an MBA. All hail 5thGener and his MBA.

"I think we've seen a new low in American Politics. Indiana Democrats and just asked for assylum in another state as well."

How dare you insult Abraham Lincoln like that! You owe him an apology!

BREAKING NEWS: Pro union websites blocked inside of Wisconsin capital building. It's good to see that Hosni Mubarak has been able to find a new job as governor of Wisconsin.

"well, I stand corrected. 5thGener knows better than all of us because he has an MBA. He is too good to work for the govt. because he has an MBA. All hail 5thGener and his MBA."

Oh now i get it- Socialist is an LIRR conductor making $100k+ for clipping tickets who will claim disability in 2 years and retire on a full 6 figure pension. No wonder why you are rooting for the govt unions!

And I already said i wasnt a he.

first they are coming for the govt. unions, then they will come for the private sector unions.

first blame the immigrants, then blame the Jews?...

Scroll up. I posted a private-union-busting story about Indiana from today's WSJ. Its not socialist's imagination for once. Its really happening.

...in Indiana, the GOP GOVERNOR is telling his own party he is against said bill, that is how far-right it is. Socialist says a lot of crazy bat-shit things, but on this he is spot-on. The Tea Party aims to eliminate the power and influence of unions, both economically and politically. Just read the WSJ editorial page. This is not some secret.

Alpo,
Gov't unions are no different than Corp lobbyists.
They're in bed with the politicians pledging votes for dollars.
FDR was right.

So what must other countries think of American Democracy when one of the two parties hides out instead of showing up to vote?

New Hampshire Republicans are also pushing through a union busting "right to work" bill that would affect both public and private sectro workers. Fortunately the Democratic governor has vowed to veto it.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/newsstatenewengland/909297-227/lynchs-veto-assured-on-right-to-work-bill.html#

Republicans might have some points when it comes to public sector unions and collective bargaining, but anytime you see bills with the words "right to work" that is plain union busting.

"So what must other countries think of American Democracy when one of the two parties hides out instead of showing up to vote?"

You mean like when Lincoln jumped out of the window to avoid voting? I too wonder what other countires think.

Why wont Republicans show up to do their jobs instead of hiding?

"In 1999, Republicans walked out of the Nevada Senate in a huff over workers’ compensation but apparently didn’t go far enough – the legislature’s sergeant-at-arms tracked down enough of them to make a quorum and the session resumed."

http://www.milwaukeenewsbuzz.com/?p=480054

How did New Hampster wind up with a Dem governor? They must really be getting pissed at the GOP for that to happen in a solid GOP state.

Alanhart, You dumped A.R?

Since when is New Hamshire a solid GOP state? It was won by Obama in 2008 and Kerry in 2004.

Sorry, running away and hiding in another state and seeking political asylum sounds awfully silly.
And I thought what goes on in Albany was funny.

Interesting, Alpie. It certainly used to be, but it seems they've recently had a lot of immigrants, presumably naturalized, as well as migrants, mostly from Massachusetts. Good.

"Only on the L line bozo. That's it. One single line."

So admitting I was right. Great.

A job so hard, literally NO ONE could do it.

"why does somewhereelse constantly make uninformed comments and then after I correct them, he flees? Today it was about robo trains. Last time it was about a shortage of engieners. Every time he makes a dumb comment, he runs. Maybe he is auditioning to become a Wisconsin state Senator."

wait, did this REALLY just come from "THE MARKET IS NOT DOWN 20%, SHOW ME JUST ONE EXAMPLE" Alpo? Hillarious.

Same genius who thinks the job that doesn't even need the person is so "hard" and needs to be paid six figure salaries.

Yes, I was right on that too.

And the same idiot who thinks there is no recession.

And the same idiot who thinks the government being the only one creating jobs is sustainable.

Thanks, alpo, you're always good for some laughs...

Of course, the fact that you are a racist, too... that's not really funny.

Can you clarify the racist charge?

>When the guy who was the conductor on my train this morning announced we were being rerouted he could barely put the sentance together- so of course the uneducated subway conductors should be making more than an attorney!!

You realize that there is a more standard version of the spelling for 'sentence', right?

>I feel compelled to let everyone that I know more about Subway than anyone else here. I know which bread is freshest; I know the calorie counts; I know the grade for each shop. If you want to try and get a better sandwich than me, go for it. But, unless your name is Jared, I will embarass you.

You so funny. Funny man, you.

>Govt. workers are not the reaon private sector workers lost their job or saw their wages cut.

Ok, let's say they weren't the reason ... in the past. They certainly are today. These excess and unfairly received pensions add to the tax burden, lower the ability of municipalities and states to pay for services and employment today, and with the higher taxes crowd out private employment and further cause cuts in the tax base.

>What's telling is that in Indiana and other states, these union-busting laws would apply to PRIVATE SECTOR UNIONS as well. So its clearly NOT only about fiscal responsibility. It is about destroying unions.

Personally, I have no issue with private sector unions, and neither should anyone else who is not involved in some direct capacity with the union or the employer of the union's members.

"and with the higher taxes crowd out private employment and further cause cuts in the tax base."

WHAT higher taxes do you speak of? I thoguh the Bush tax cuts were just extended, were they not? Has Cuomo not said repeatedly that he will NOT continue the millionaire's tax?

Ok, fine, we don't have higher taxes, except that some people (ahem) are advocating for them. ahem.

"You don't even need the train operator - they're only still there because of the unions."

And to make sure the train does not run over a track worker. But who cares about them anyway? They are just a bunch of union workers.

And you need a train operator to be present for rhwne automated trains go crazy and do things like this:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/06/DC_Metro_Red_Line_Crash_2.jpg

or this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/NTSB-Woodley-Park-Accident.png

Bot the DC trains in the pictures above were running under automated control at the time of their crashes.

I am just amazed how quickly everybody, everybody jumped on these poor teachers.
Firemen and police guys are excepted (most likely because they lean more towards the GOP).

What about the Wall Street thieves ????

Hang Them High but so far they have continue their ways and control everybody

Shame on you guys who are offended by teacher's salaries - oh I forgot you are working for/in Wall Street
Damn on you

I don't think people object to teachers' salaries.

"What about the Wall Street thieves ????"

If it werent for the wall street theives the stupid govt officials would never have had the tax revenues to promise the public employees such generous salaries and benefits - now that those revenues have dried up and the govt officials didnt save anything for a rainy day they ahve to cut back on those generous salaries and benefits.

And yes,I think teachers in NY are overpaid.

It isn't so much the wages that are so offensive. It is the benefit system that rewards people for not working.

What about the percentage of people who retire with disability?
What about the overtime padding in the last years that spikes permanent pension benefits?

I do not believe teachers in NYC public schools are overpaid. I do believe it should be easier to fire the bad ones. The process to get tenor should be more strict and be a longer process so as to better filter out the bad ones. No more BS about how it's hard to evaluate teachers. It does not have to be perfect and it does not have to be 100% fair, but it must be done.

"Bot the DC trains in the pictures above were running under automated control at the time of their crashes. "

Yes, because there has never been a crash with a human! Never! Ever!

Try again, toots.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/09/conductor_in_deadly_la_train_c.html
Engineer in Deadly LA Train Crash Was Texting
POSTED: 05:40 PM ET, 09/18/2008 by The Editors
TAGS: transportation

Less than a week after one of the worst train accidents in recent U.S. history, California officials today issued a temporary order banning train operators from using cell phones on duty.

I spend 2 hours a day on the road. I can tell yuo for a fact 10% of people driving are texting or looking at their phone at any given moment. Im guilty as well. I cannot believe there aren't more accidents.
There will need to be a cradle mechanism in cars that requires the driver to cradle their phone to start the car. It enters the cradle, the car verifies electronically it's the driver's car, etc. and locks in place. No system will stop everybody but one that cuts down use even 80% while driving.

"If it werent for the wall street theives the stupid govt officials would never have had the tax revenues to promise the public employees such generous salaries and benefits"

Sure they would. If Wall St. did not have the money, other people would.

Yes, but the government suckers wouldn't have had the balls to tax the poor and middle class at the same rates they tax the rich. The top city and state rates are outright wacky.

Sorry toots, wrong again.

"Engineer in Deadly LA Train Crash Was Texting "

Wow, still no comment from Alpo.

I guess we should be paying that guy more.

"Yes, but the government suckers wouldn't have had the balls to tax the poor and middle class at the same rates they tax the rich."

Sure they would. They would tax the middle class at the same rates they do the rich right now, and then raise the rates they charge the rich.

"And yes,I think teachers in NY are overpaid."

Seriously??

The average teacher in NYC makes $50K. That barely qualifies you to rent a $1250/month apartment (and good luck finding one of those).

How much SHOULD they get paid? $30K? Will you be happy when their pay is on a par with these so-called "nannies" and cleaning ladies?

What are you talking about- the STARTING salary is $45k.

The average is certainly not $50k.

http://jd2718.wordpress.com/the-new-uft-contract/new-uft-nyc-doe-teacher-pay-scale-salary-charts/

If it was i would say that is certainly fair. And outside NYC on LI and in Westchester many teachers are making over $100k- i know some at over $150k.

Um, even earning in the 60s, 70s, and 80Ks ... which is the majority of what I'm seeing on that chart ... is hardly "overpaid" for the education and qualifications required for the job.

Secretaries make $80K in this city.

If govt. workers make so much money and have such great benefits, then how come nobody here becomes one? You must all be making more than those overpaid govt. workers you hate so much.

Liberals just love changing facts.

Secretaries don't average anywhere neark $80k in New York City. Yes, secretaries in Wall Street firms may be around that range, but not all secretaries in the whole city. Not even close.

Teacher salaries are fine in NYC, it is the obscene benefits that are outrageously high and are killing the budget.

> The average teacher in NYC makes $50K

Uh, not even close.

50k. 70K. That's close.

"If govt. workers make so much money and have such great benefits, then how come nobody here becomes one?"

Because most people like careers that are merit-based, where good work is paid for, and you don't have to work alongside idiots with seniority.

$70k is 40% more than $50k.

Well said SWE.

"and you don't have to work alongside idiots with seniority."

No, but you work alongside idiot managers who only have their job because their brother is the HR director or because they sucked up to the bosses.

If it werent for the wall street thieves the stupid govt officials would never have had the tax revenues to promise the public employees such generous salaries and benefits

that's the most stupid response I have read for a long time

If you want to get real, we should introduce a special tax bracket for these Wall Street thieves - something like 110% - retroactive for the last 5 years.
These thieves play with other people money and they still playing the same game.
Hang them high or better place them in front of a wall....

Average NYC teacher salary: $57,354

http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-York-teacher-salary

Sorry to inject facts into your anti union discussion. Carry on

If you have any doubt what's going on concerning the unions, just watch the US abroad in one of their colonies :(

Iraq 10/10/2010
you Iraq: 10/10/2010

The political deadlock in Baghdad, which has prevented the formation of an Iraqi government more than six months after the parliamentary elections in March, has not prevented the administration of Nuri Kamal al-Maliki from opening the southern oilfields to the world's giant corporations. Nor has it stopped the US Embassy and Commerce Department from reinvigorating the Bush-era program of selling the country's public assets to corporate buyers. And because Iraqi unions have organized opposition to privatization since the start of the occupation, the Maliki administration is enforcing with a vengeance Saddam Hussein's prohibition of public sector unions.

The United States may have withdrawn its combat brigades, but it is not leaving Iraq. And while Washington may have scaled back its dreams of nation-building, it has not given up on a key aspect of the economic agenda behind that project: encouraging corporate investment by sacrificing the rights of Iraqi workers.

June demonstrations over blackouts, supported by the union -- the first national union led by a woman, Hashmeya Muhsin -- were put down by police, who killed one protester and injured several others

Also in June, longshoremen protesting the prohibition of unions in ports south of Basra were surrounded by troops, and the union's leaders were transferred hundreds of miles from their homes.

In January the government threw the president of Basra's Iraqi Teachers Union in jail. According to Nasser al-Hussain, an executive board member, the government seeks to establish control over an organization it views as far too independent.

After the 2003 invasion, occupation czar Paul Bremer decided to keep on the books Saddam's Law 150, which bans public sector unions. Each succeeding Iraqi administration continued the prohibition.

So WI is not Egypt but rather like Iraq

It's also interesting to note that the REPUBLICAN governors of Florida, Michigan, and Pennsylvania have said that they don't support revoking the collective bargaining rights of unions. So Scott Walker is on his own with no support from other governors.

From the NYC DOE: http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-831014B39D1E/0/TeacherSalarySchedule20083.pdf

After 5 years, a teacher is in the $55k-60 range. After 8 years a teacher is in the $65k-70 range. And that is only base salary, most teachers will make much more. If they work summers they will make significantly more.

Half of all new NYC teachers quit within their first 5 years. Only 5% of teachers are at top pay.

Socialist, can we get some acknowledgment from you that it's better to pay better teachers more, and better to get rid of lesser teachers sooner?

Average NYC teacher salary: $57,354

http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-York-teacher-salary

Sorry to inject facts into your anti union discussion. Carry on

That data is wrong. Its from 2006 and says the starting salary is $37k- its $45k. The link I posted is the most recent.

http://jd2718.wordpress.com/the-new-uft-contract/new-uft-nyc-doe-teacher-pay-scale-salary-charts/

Whatever ... it's still very little for a job that requires a Masters degree, student-teaching experience, etc. The average overall teacher's salary is about what you'd expect a reasonably good graduate of a reasonably good college to earn in a reasonably good first job in the private sector. Maybe a bit less.

If it werent for the wall street thieves the stupid govt officials would never have had the tax revenues to promise the public employees such generous salaries and benefits

that's the most stupid response I have read for a long time

If you want to get real, we should introduce a special tax bracket for these Wall Street thieves - something like 110% - retroactive for the last 5 years.
These thieves play with other people money and they still playing the same game.
Hang them high or better place them in front of a wall....

The crises is do to congress and govt policies not Wall Street. And most of "Wall street" has nothing to do with mortgages- people in M&A, ECM, equity research, private equity, etc , etc.

Most americans have no idea what people on wall street do.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2010/04/30/mort-zuckerman-congress-had-a-role-in-the-financial-crisis_print.html

sorry- Crisis.

crisis is due

The Public Worker Gravy Train

Many government employees are paid up to 30% more than those in the private sector..

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704657704576149941061124736.html

"No, but you work alongside idiot managers who only have their job because their brother is the HR director or because they sucked up to the bosses."

Then the bad employees get fired, or the companies go out of business via competition from better-run companies.

But make make those stupid moves in government... taxpayers pay more!

We pay for the morons!

"Whatever ... it's still very little for a job that requires a Masters degree, student-teaching experience, etc. The average overall teacher's salary is about what you'd expect a reasonably good graduate of a reasonably good college to earn in a reasonably good first job in the private sector. Maybe a bit less."

Let's start with the fact that many of these teachers did not graduate "reasonably good" colleges and some may not be "reasonably good" graduates.

But even if we give you that...

Let's add in... summers off. Potential for overtime.... and wacky pension.

Meaning with lifetime tenure, that is overpaid for many of 'em (and the good ones should be getting merit pay).