Leaving Manhattan for Brooklyn Heights

Google 'Brooklyn Heights' & you'll find lots of sites & blogs about the nabe. I'd also suggest getting a sitter & you & your wife hanging over there to check it out. It's just one stop from Manhattan. Let us know what you think!

Not my cup of tea, but we have friends who made the same kind of move and are just pleased as punch, so I'd say it's definitely worth doing in-depth research.

markznyc - didn't you just recently move to a new development in tribeca? what has prompted your reconsideration of the neighborhood as a long term family place? I recall you posted a bunch of comments on how good manhattan would be for raising your kids a couple months back.

You'll find out what kind of friends you really have. The people you thought who cared about you in Manhattan will treat you like you are some new reincarnated form of low life and will try to as politely but condescendingly drop you from their social calendar. The people in Brooklyn wont even like you because they'll see you for what really are. Some new breed of urban wannabe who because they cant afford the city, will desperately try anything to differentiate themselves from everyone else in their new neighborhood. It wont work because there arent enough other urban wannabes like yourself to come in and completely displace the local population. So you are going to be stuck in your new unending geographic compromise and no matter how hard you try you wont be able to compensate for your new position in life. To the clueless people in the city, you'll be just another borough person. To real Brooklynites you are just another flake. No matter how hard you try you wont be able to reconcile the two.

maxny - such cynicism and superficiality, if your friends care where you live, find some new friends. Markznyc, there are alot of financial types in the Heights, as well as a large group of long-time residents. I think it makes for a nice mix. We considered it, and a good friend of mine, an artist, gave up the UWS for the Heights (and we visited every month or so until she moved overseas). It's kid friendly, a great walk across the Bridge to the LES. Dining is getting much better (particularly in the abutting neighborhoods). Transport is probably the best in the city, depending on where you are (try to buy closer to the hub).

I don't know about public schools. Packer Collegiate was my second/third choice in the city, I thought it was great. St. Ann's is very interesting, but some say very strange. Good luck.

Its not cynicism, its the new reality for the downwardly mobile like markznyc. The only thing that is superficial is the excessive obsessing about where to live. When people ask about neighborhoods on this board its not just about commute times, there is code between the lines. Its how to be part of the larger country club of Manhattan, even when you cant afford the membership fee.

Maxny, you need to lighten up. He just asked for some input regarding people's opinions of subjective things in the neighborhood. If all the rich or grasping or both people care so damn much where I live I'll just quit telling them. Most people don't have the time to go a-visiting these days anyway, and if they do they want to meet at some spot in the Meatpacking District. The only thing I think when I hear someone has a "prestige address" is that they got lucky and bought before the bubble, they overextended, or they are likely tied to their desks and are too self-absorbed to be meaningful friends anyway. I really used to love Manhattan, but it's truly starting to suck.

"...The only thing I think when I hear someone has a "prestige address" is that they

1.got lucky and bought before the bubble

2.they overextended

3.or they are likely tied to their desks and are too self-absorbed to be meaningful friends anyway...."

Wow - talk about being too self absorbed to be a meaningful human being. The only thing I think when I hear such judgmental, pathetic, vapid spew is what a sad, sorry little person you must be.

Having lived in BH brownstones and new construction Manhattan highrises, my two cents:

1) Be prepared to deal with roaches and potentially mice in a brownstone, vs little to no chance of dealing with these critters in a new construction highrise. Very hard to completely rid a 100+ yr old building of these.

2) Brownstones tend to be "darker" than highrises, so if light is important for you, take this into consideration.

3) Do you want to have to deal with stairs day in and day out? Could be an issue with kids and older relatives. Brownstone stairs tend to be narrow and steep.

4) If you plan to go out in Manhattan often, be prepared to deal with grumpy cab drivers who really don't want to cross a bridge to take you home.

That being said, the Heights is generally quieter, more "neighborhood-y", and has great views of Manhattan!

Good luck with your decision!

malraux,

Oh please, it was hyperbole presented to the person claiming that someone wishing to leave Manhattan for Brooklyn Heights was "downwardly mobile." He's the one that claims that where one wants to live reflects ones desire "to be part of the larger country club of Manhattan."

Few people in Manhattan have the time to be meaningful friends, regrettably, and the incessant desire for more material wealth, often reflected in one's address, doesn't help. We are the culture that has made cancelling personal plans a way of life, and some of us seem to have our most meaningful relationship with our BlackBerry. If realizing that has made me a sad, sorry little person, well, I'd say somewhat sad at least. I have a few very good friends, and a great husband and daughter, but the general level of human connectivity in Manhattan seems low to me. Vapid spew is a great turn of phrase. Happy Tuesday in the stock market to everyone.

aboutready:

I think that few people, regardless of where they live, have "... time to be meaningful friends..." Being a truly meaningful friend takes a great deal of time and committment, and I happen to think most of are lucky to have (aside from family) one or two or maybe three people we think of a super-close meaningful friends. The rest are good friends, even great friends, but relationships of any serious kind take serious work, and if you've already had a family, and are working, I think there's a limit. That goes whether you live in NYC or Kansas.

What I object to is pigeon holing the 'city-folk' (Manhattanites) as being devoid of the need or appreciation of close friends at the expense of 'material wealth' and 'our Blackberries.' It's just a bad stereotype. If the general level of human conectivity in Manhattan seems low to you, look in the mirror first.

aboutready, will you be my friend? We can meet up in the meatpacking district and then head for coffee in Brooklyn Heights. I promise not to cancel.

Wow. I shouldn't be amazed but I am at how much vitriol is spewed, and assumptions made, from a basic question about a charming neighborhood, which to me seems more like an extension of the UWS than any Westchester 'burb.

To clear up a few misconceptions:

1) Not sure how the conversation went in this direction, but all of our friends currently live uptown, and feel that downtown is just as foreign of a realm as Brooklyn, so we already broke the 14th street barrier a few years ago and they/we were comfortable with that. Friends are friends and I guess unlike some people on this board, they really don't give a shit where I live as long as our wine selection remains good.

2) We can certainly afford to stay put where we are. We are neither over-extended nor are downwardly mobile. As a matter of fact, if we did consider a move we would probably spend more money on a place. We are still (relatively) young and still "climbing". Maybe that doesn't fly in Brooklyn?

3) We have been "serial movers" the last few years and are considering trying out a different lifestyle. (For some reason we have become obsessed with "stairs" lately -- harkening back to our childhood, I guess?) Kind of crazy, I know, but we consider it a form of travel!

4) Last time I checked I thought Brooklyn was part of the city, and I still think any part of the city is a great place to raise kids. And I never mentioned where I live so why the assumption of a "prestige address"? Brooklyn Hts is way more expensive than the UES, Murray Hill, etc., so I have always considered it comparable to Manhattan as far as the relative SES of the community. I am no investment banker -- but it seems like many live there.

The one thing I have learned so far is that Brooklyn Hts seems to still harbor some "newcomers" angst, but nothing different than downtown of a few years ago, the North Shore of 10 years ago ... etc. Same old story.

Thanks for the useful comments yankeefan, aboutready and others. No "code" necessary. I will keep my eye on Brownstoner and the like, and still welcom constructive comments!

Juiceman, sorry, no can do. I'm busy looking in the mirror at the sad, sorry little person who likes to spew invective and stereotypes. I guess I'm just imagining the increased number of hours worked per week, the parents who rarely see their children, and the increased number of prescriptions for anxiety and depression medications. Maybe after a few more sessions with my therapist, I'll be ready to make some of the meaningful connections which are so abundantly available to people without my obvious difficulties. Although, after a few more sessions, and this week's market performance, and a probable freezing of advancement at my husband's firm, I may not be able to afford to meet you in the Meatpacking district. Maybe Rudy's in Hell's Kitchen? (If it's still around, if not, the Grassroots Tavern always had really cheap beer, as did Joe's, both in the East Village. I think they're still around.)

Malraux, you're right, it's an epidemic nationwide, but the hours ARE greater for people who work in the city. I'm from the Pacific Northwest, originally, and there is still a noticable difference there in how people perceive work and play. I haven't been to Kansas recently (OK, ever). Many people outside the NY metro region have lost their homes, wonder what that has done to their perspective?

Malraux, I really was responding to the idiotic notion that we ARE defined by where we live (within this region), not the other way around. To me, Brooklyn Heights isn't much different demographically than Manhattan, except the real estate market isn't as pricey. I do think there has been a tendency to be all-consumed with purchasing property in Manhattan, which doesn't make for a pretty social environment, but I can understand it given the intensity and craziness this market has instilled in people looking for a home.

Oh and yankeefan -- are you in Brooklyn now or Manhattan?

Brooklyn Heights is heavenly, elegant, family-friendly ---- and hasn't become the Disneyland that the UWS has become. And Cobble Hill and adjoining areas are charming as all get out. Tons of great places to eat on Smith Street. Packer, St. Ann's, Brooklyn Friends -- and also an easy subway commute for kids to Manhattan private schools, if need be . . .

Poorish --

Do you find yourself going to Smith Street and Dumbo often? We have spent some great Summer afternoons at the Gowanus Yacht Club on Smith, but never really thought about it being close enough to the Hts. for a quick walk. Any Hts. places that you reccomend?

Brooklyn is Brooklyn - and can never be Manhattan. What's the point in comparing between boroughs? When evaluating departures from Manhattan, people always review how far they're moving away from the 'city', i.e. Manhattan, in determining value of the non-Manhattan property. In other words, the farther one is removed from Manhattan, the less valuable the property. Like it or not, this should give you an idea of where the center of the real estate universe is for this part of the country. Everyone will have their opinion on where the best neighborhoods are in each respective borough and it's useless getting defensive by performing futile interborough comparisons in pricing. Brooklyn pricing has appreciated but not as aggressively as Manhattan. From a cost and value perspective, it's likely to always trail.

Sarcasm alert: also, if people can't stand Manhattan, would never want to live in it, abhor its residents, and consider it overpriced, then we should expect Manhattan pricing to drop to bargain-levels sometime soon!

markznyc, I went through a similar debate and I'd like to share some of my thoughts/conclusions. Ultimately I went to the UWS, because it didn't suit my tastes.

I suggest you get on a subway train and scope out the area and see for yourself.
I was open to the idea, but I shut the door upon the first trip there.

Cons:
- I did not find the subways that convenient. (One missed stop, and OOPS. WOAH WTH AM I??) I crossed off some stations as "NOT an option" with my young daughter.
- I did not find it to be more charming then the UWS. There are a FEW select blocks that were "charming", but they are not as close to the subways as advertised, which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't to the LOCAL trains and the some areas on the way weren't a little shady.
- Good luck hailing a cab.
- Good luck hailing a cab to go into Manhattan to eat.
- Good luck getting your friends to visit. (I previously lived in Yorkville UES and had few visitors. It would likely be worse in Brooklyn. Sad but the truth.)

Pros:
- Some of the views are fantastic.
- It is still closer to wall/financial district then UWS/UES, though the subway convenience was overrated for me
- Cheaper, better space for buck.
- Potential

Thanks, aifamm, really helpful points.

We have spent alot of Summer Saturdays over the last few years in the Heights, Park Slope, and on Smith Street, strolling, eating, etc. so we get a good sense of what the neighborhoods look like, and the transport drawbacks on the surface, but not really how day to day residence see their 'hood.

Getting a sesne of that would be some great insight. Thanks, all.

markznyc,

Try Noodle Pudding (awful name, that) on Henry St., near Cranberry. I haven't been there in awhile (since the friend moved overseas), but the food was always great and it still gets good reviews from Zagats. A bit further afield, I have heard that Po has opened an outpost in Carroll Gardens.

I agree with most of the pros and cons aifamm lists, but I think I have more tolerance generally for fringe so more of the neighborhood seemed acceptable to me and I loved Boerum Hill (but I used to live in Hell's Kitchen, and liked it, enough said). BUT, there are a lot of car services that you'll likely get to know if you move there, and you call (how quaint) and one comes to pick you up and take you to the city. It's not much more than a taxi, so that's one problem averted. Having said that, I've considered Brooklyn FOUR times (the Heights/Boerum Hill/Cobble Hill twice and Park Slope twice) and haven't done it, but at that time a brownstone wouldn't have been an option. I agree with you, there's something charming about raising a kid with a back yard and some stairs.

I think people in Brooklyn are fairly satisfied with their choice. It's NOT Manhattan, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It IS a good neighborhood with expensive real estate. And, it is, from everything I've heard, a good place for families. It has been a choice for downtown financial types for quite awhile, so I don't think you'll feel like an interloper moving from Manhattan.

A good wine selection can get you far. Good luck.

aboutready --

Really nice thoughts. Much appreciated. From your previous posts it sounds like you and I both have been longtime Manhattan residents (now with kids) that sometimes get enthralled with the Boro's charms but won't pull the trigger!

a lot of anger, wow. must be the dreadful "R" word looming on the NY exchange. I too was in your shoes about 8 months ago...no, I didn't have the luxury to buy into ANY neighborhood in the city, but also was against coops for future rental flexibility. Let's remember that 75% rent in the NYC area -- so we all are in a "club" if we must, when you buy a piece of the apple. That being said, I narrowed down my search to UES, UWS, BPC, Harlem, and Brooklyn -- namely Carroll Gardens, since it had access to great restaurants, a nice neighborhood feel, and was a 15 min. train ride to work (comparable to UES/UWS, yet minus the snobbery, entitlement cards, and closer to below 14th st. which i frequent). I will say that it was a choice, more so than what some maniacs posted before about "country club" status. I did my 5+ years in the city and although I love it, work in it, and have no complaints about it, wanted a more tranquil buffer to all of that. If I was still single...maybe I'd think differently. I'd investigate further, but this was the time last year that I was doing my homework. I found that Park Slope was as crowded as the city, Billyburg was too hit or miss without a neighborhood feel, but the BoCoCa area seemed to have it all. It's as close as you're going to get to Manhattan that offers a true neighborhood for future little ones in a less congested area. Good luck!

BoCoCa???? I must have been asleep please tell me where that is...Bklyn Hts is beautiful but it's like a great vacation...after a few weeks you're ready to come home to Manhattan.

ha...boerum hill, cobble hill, carroll gardens. to each their own, but i did my time.

julia -- you may have nailed my fear!