Holiday tipping: doormen vs. security guards

What about parking attendants while we are on the topic of holiday tipping?

also a good question...thanks!

enough with the tipping madness!!!!!!!!!

agree with Matt on this..

I tip HORRID waiters 18% for BAD service, knowing the expenses they (I once) have.

I already give my doormen automatic raises, overtime, family health benefits, pensions, generous sick and vaca pay, along with a $1MM free apartment for my super, with my "tip" every month aka my HOA monthly..

I think what I provide them every month, doesn't warrant more.

it seems like xmas tipping comes earlier every year..

Oh,God. Not again. There is nothing that can possibly be said that hasn't been said endlessly for years. Any chance we can refer all questions here:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/24195-holiday-tipping-how-much
or here:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/23972-garage-tipping
or here:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/2607-that-time-of-the-year-tipping

is tipping typically different if you are a renter versus owner?

Going on....
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/23892-holiday-tips
or this:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/23536-how-much-do-you-tip-the-super
or maybe this:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/15787-holiday-tipping

Tipping in rental buildings:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/16599-tipping-in-rental-buildings

Thanks, kyle, that's helpful. I didn't see much on security guards, though. I'll keep looking.

terri, we all know what a doorman does: he guards, he signs for packages, he assists with packages, whatever. So using that as a base point read the discussions and get an idea of what doormen are or aren't tipped (the latter in the case of Matt and his building staff). If you have a security guard instead of actual doorman, just adjust the amount commensurate with the lower amount that the security staff does. Everyone's security staff will be a little different. At my old building, security did almost everything a doorman would except jump up to actually open the door. So they got almost as much as my doormen do now. Stability in staffing usually gets rewarded too with significantly more senior staff getting "credit" for their longevity in the building.

For the next 12 months, and beyond, you are going to walk past this person on the way in to your apartment, on the way out to work, to family, to leisure, etc. You saved $X by being a cheapskate. How do you feel that first day afterwards, out the door, then back home. How do you feel the second day? How do you feel the third day?

If you are part of the entitled class, like NYCMatt, no issue. You get triple penalty lindy overtime from your big corporate employer because you worked late and "messed up your body clock", but you have no respect for the people you see every day, and have no concern either.

I do have a new question...the doormen in my bldg. are great but one doorman has gossiped about me to other tenants regarding who comes up to my apartment, etc..I would like not to tip him but I feel it might get worse if i dont.

It is not like the doormen tell each other how much they got tipped by each tenant. There is no standard tip, so if you feel like giving him a tip but not as much as the others, then do so.

Julia, he is unlikely to associate the rebuff of no tip or a lesser tip with the conduct you found objectionable. I would consider handling it with an opposite approach: tip him an amount that is clearly generous to win his favor and having a gentle heart-to-heart with him focusing not on his behavior per se but how it made you feel. It is no doubt delicate, but you have the potential to make him your personal defender and body guard versus adding fuel to his desire to gossip.

kylewest...good point

i think its is a bad precedent.
why should you need to give someone more money than he deserves so he will behave properly?
That would encourage the other doormen to gossip.

exactly - with that logic, you should not only give the school yard bully your lunch money but your allowance as well so that he becomes your friend...not going to happen

Send your money to North Korea and Iran instead.

"If you are part of the entitled class, like NYCMatt, no issue. You get triple penalty lindy overtime from your big corporate employer because you worked late and "messed up your body clock", but you have no respect for the people you see every day, and have no concern either."

Not fair.

TIPS were originally intended for service people who make less than the minimum wage (wait staff) or those who make NEAR minimum wage and really go out of their way for you. They were not intended for people making solid middle class salaries with health benefits, pensions, and paid holidays, sick days, and vacation.

If they're not making enough money, they need to do what everyone else does: FIND ANOTHER JOB.

Re: the doormen in my bldg. are great but one doorman has gossiped about me to other tenants regarding who comes up to my apartment, etc..I would like not to tip him but I feel it might get worse if i dont.

The rock, the anchor, paradigm of cluelessness.. or a clever play-acting broker -- damn, I could go either way!

NYCMatt, then don't call it a "tip," call it a "bonus." Bonuses are meant for salaried employees with benefits, pensions etc. They are a wonderful way to reward and provide incentive.

"NYCMatt, then don't call it a "tip," call it a "bonus." Bonuses are meant for salaried employees with benefits, pensions etc. They are a wonderful way to reward and provide incentive."

And "bonuses" from individual tenants -- whether renters, shareholders, or owners -- should be outlawed for building staff for that very reason.

In other industries, it's considered a conflict of interest (if not illegal) for employees to be receiving "bonuses" from clients and/or vendors. Any and all bonus monies come directly from the employer. If the employer (in this case, the building) deems a bonus appropriate for staffers, the building should provide said bonus.

Allowing the practice of individuals giving bonuses to building staff too often creates a reverse "incentive" for that staff to provide ENHANCED service to those individuals, and even REDUCED service to those individuals who DON'T provide them bonuses.

Not everyone can afford to pass out $100 bills to an endless list of often mediocre building employees, particularly out of fear that if they don't, these employees may refuse to do their jobs for them in the upcoming year.

"TIPS were originally intended for service people who make less than the minimum wage..."

Nope. TIPS stands for "to insure proper service". The wage of one who is tipped does not come into play whatsoever. At least it didn't when the word "tip" was originally coined.

"Nope. TIPS stands for "to insure proper service". The wage of one who is tipped does not come into play whatsoever. At least it didn't when the word "tip" was originally coined."

Um, NOPE.

That's a common urban myth.

who cares what tips stand for? bottom line is it's optional..

(until the union find a legal way to make it mandatory for unit-owners to shell out, tho i wouldn't be surprised if they're working on it)

until I start paying for my waiter's pensions, family health care, COLA on top of pensions, automatic raises (or freeze at worst, never down), overly generous sick & vaca package, then I'll still tip my waiter 18% minimum, even if horrible service (short of throwing a drink on my face)...

..my doormen, not so much, that's what my monthly HOA is for.

"who cares what tips stand for? bottom line is it's optional.. "

But that's just my point.

In buildings where this tipping (excuse me, BONUS) nonsense runs rampant, many people feel it's more of an EXTORTION; if they don't "tip", the next time their toilet overflows, the building staff will suddenly make themselves scarce.

julia:
I sort of disagree with kyle on his advice.

Speak to the doorman about it as kyle suggests. But before holiday season approaches -- like now, today.

Continue to tip him your usual amount, only if you get the info (from whomever told you about his behavior)that he has ceased yapping about you. You will know by holiday time.

If he continues -- no tip for him.
He will then get the message.

How about using the threat of FIRING as an incentive? You know, like when they do something wrong, or don't do their jobs?

Oh, and julia:
Don't expect him to admit to the yapping.
He will look shocked/surprised/perhaps insulted.

The objective is to get him to stop.

NYCMatt, I would agree that there's definitely a baseline "extortion" payment (or maybe more of a guilt-induced payment) that I pay some of the building staff, but for others, I happily pay a little extra because I like and appreciate them and it gives me the warm and fuzzies. I get a guaranteed bonus plus a performance kicker, why shouldn't they? I'm such an awesome guy.

I don't buy the "client" argument. As a shareholder in your co-op, you are their employer (albeit indirectly), not their client. You can argue that it should be the building's responsibility to provide a bonus, but you'd be footing the bill regardless. At least this way you get to let them know directly how little you appreciate them.

Matt: There was a doorman in my building who showed up drunk for his afternnon shift on a regular basis.

He freaked out on several people over the years: screaming and cursing at them in the lobby.
Including one of the nit-wits Board-members.

The next day after every freak-out (if not the very same night) there would be a union rep in the lobby paying him a visit.

He didn't get fired until he freaked-out on another doorman.

Not to say that you are a nit-wit Board-member, Matt.
And not to stir up a Union thing here.

I'm just sayin'.

"I get a guaranteed bonus plus a performance kicker, why shouldn't they? I'm such an awesome guy."

I didn't say they shouldn't. But it should come from the building, not from individual tenants.

***

"I don't buy the "client" argument. As a shareholder in your co-op, you are their employer (albeit indirectly), not their client. You can argue that it should be the building's responsibility to provide a bonus, but you'd be footing the bill regardless. At least this way you get to let them know directly how little you appreciate them."

And indirectly, if someone DOESN'T give a "bonus", they take it as not being appreciated by that particular tenant. Never mind that the tenant has been unemployed for 22 months and can barely afford to pay the ConEd.

Again, it should come from the building, or it shouldn't come at all.

***

Matt: There was a doorman in my building who showed up drunk for his afternnon shift on a regular basis. He freaked out on several people over the years: screaming and cursing at them in the lobby.
Including one of the nit-wits Board-members. The next day after every freak-out (if not the very same night) there would be a union rep in the lobby paying him a visit. He didn't get fired until he freaked-out on another doorman."

So your building management didn't fire the guy because ... why?

And don't blame the union. I belong to FOUR labor unions (and I've served on the board of directors for one, and a delegate to the AFL-CIO), and I can assure you that there is NO union contract in this country that prevents the firing of any union employee for just cause. None. Your building management, for whatever its reason, chose NOT to.

Yes Matt. They chose not to.
I think they were afraid he would go postal. (No offensive to postal workers.)
But they chose to when he freaked-out on one of the other doormen.

My point was that the doorman knew he could possibly be fired for his behavior.
The union rep knew that the doorman should have been fired.
But the union rep came to visit him in the lobby.
Not to advise the guy to chill-out. Not to advise him to use his union health benefits for medical/shrink treatment. Not to advise him to join AA.

The union rep just showed up whenever the doorman called him.
Which evidently gave the doorman the feeling of protection and he felt free to freak-out with impunity.

"Yes Matt. They chose not to.
I think they were afraid he would go postal. (No offensive to postal workers.)"

Then what you do is you fire him and have a police escort him off the premesis. It's really that easy.

That's what I suggested.
I think they finally took him out in a strait-jacket.

some of you are just cheap skates...

Just want to pay/tip for the quality of service provided.

"some of you are just cheap skates..."

you are free to estimate the % of owners who don't tip, and then tip the doormen extra for the "lost" optional tips..

should you not follow above example, that'd just make you a cheapskate as well.

Y'all are too easy to bait. Matt wins. Look at yourselves.

Not necessarily, kylewest. I don't always agree with Matt's viewpoints, but at least they are entertaining and coherent, and sometimes even informative. I get a charge out of his abrasive delivery, too. And I'm not really trying to change his point of view, just understand his rationale and maybe learn something, so I don't view it as losing if he continues to be a holiday scrooge (although I do sympathize with his building staff). It does seem odd to me that he throws up his hands and claims it's the building's responsibility to reward a bonus, not his, not realizing that he'd be paying it either way...

"I don't view it as losing if he continues to be a holiday scrooge (although I do sympathize with his building staff)."

Our building staff is well-compensated AND receives year-end bonuses ... FROM THE BUILDING.

*****

"It does seem odd to me that he throws up his hands and claims it's the building's responsibility to reward a bonus, not his, not realizing that he'd be paying it either way."

It IS the building's responsibility, and yes and no.

YES, we're paying bonuses out of the building's surplus reserve fund, so YES we've indirectly all paid for the bonuses. But NO ONE is paying extra out of their pockets for these bonuses -- they continue to pay only their usual monthly maintenance. And NO, we will not ever be raising monthly maintenance solely to pay for staff bonuses.

NYCMatt, you are correct. While I do tip when warranted, there is a question of principle. Like you said, tips are expected with waitstaff, etc. and restaurants do factor that into their base pay, but no one else gets "tipped" for doing their job.

Case in point - the sister of a friend boughta place on 6th avenue. When Christmas came around, she did in fact give the staff gifts, but they were subpar compared to her neighbors' gifts, and it did not include cash. After that, the concierge, doorman, and elevator man never treated her the same.

So while "being nice" to those who serve you is the right thing to do, their JOB is to be nice to you and to serve you. That is why they are paid. And if you come up a little short on a tip or a holiday gift (in their eyes), that does not automatically mean that they can suddenly stop doing their job! And if they do, then they better start looking for another one!

>the sister of a friend boughta place on 6th avenue.

ooh, 6th avenue, fancy.

>she did in fact give the staff gifts, but they were subpar compared to her neighbors' gifts, and it did not include cash.

What kind of tip doesn't include cash? Cookies? A bottle of liquor?

>And if you come up a little short on a tip or a holiday gift

You think that maybe this place on 6th avenue might have been out of reach, after all. In retrospect

>And if they do, then they better start looking for another one!

According to who?

again, these service jobs are self explanatory. their SALARY already pays them. the job description is to serve. you don't automatically get a gift or tip for doing a salaried job that happens to be in the service industry. everybody is deserving of respect and humane treatment when they go to work everyday because everybody benefits from it. but, except for restaurant staff whose income is partly contingent on gratuity, tips and gifts for your building's staff are more of a privilege than an entitlement.

Anonymous - this is one heckuva cautionary tale re: not tipping.

Were the staff in your friend's sister's building fired for not doing their jobs?

down 20 - 30% from last year

>Allowing the practice of individuals giving bonuses to building staff too often creates a reverse "incentive" for that staff to provide ENHANCED service to those individuals, and even REDUCED service to those individuals who DON'T provide them bonuses.

Isn't that the best part? Who wants to be rich if everyone else is rich??

>TIPS stands for "to insure proper service". The wage of one who is tipped does not come into play whatsoever. At least it didn't when the word "tip" was originally coined.

No, if that is what it meant, 'ensure' is the proper word vs 'insure', in which case you'd be giving teps.