Parents and Coop

Your parents' limited income will be the biggest red flag to the board. I don't know if they will be approved.

Just buy a condo and be done with it. Or anticipate a few years and go for assisted living.

Or review the responses when you asked the same thing six months ago: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/27100-coops-and-elderly

At the rate you're moving, normal life course will settle it for you.

We so thoroughly discussed this in the past. I don't understand why you are re-asking the exact same question.

Coops dont like trusts or any of that complication. Plus not speaking English is going to make things more difficult. Go for a condo.

I do a lot of intricate co-op packages, and I still have to say, this is a toughie.

You'd mentioned a one-bedroom cash purchase, so a board will be concerned about the ability of your parents' Social Security income to cover their maintenance. If the maintenance is around $1,000, the board will be looking for about $50,000 in income, and it's unlikely that your octogenerian parents make that.

So a board has good reason to turn down based on financials alone. If you want to be a guarantor, that could work, but then there's the difficult of your parents getting through their interview. Boards can't technically discriminate on the basis of national origin, but getting a translator in to the interview is starting off oddly.

I would think that if you are already in a co-op, you can work with your board to bring your parents in to your building. Ditto your brother's building. But I don't think other co-ops are going to work with you, so I think your choices are your two buildings, plus condos.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Thanks Ali.....We were leaning towards coop since its about 25% cheaper than condo and thus they could get more for their money.....My building doesnt work...wouldnt want them to move in my building since their are maintenance issues plus we have no outdoor space...they need that since they are use to it...My brother lives in a house outside the city.....so, yes..its a toughie...thats why i posted about this again since i was concerned......trying to avoid assisted living in the future since its very expensive and they prefer to protect assets.....was preferential to an apt in the city....so once they needed help, i would pay for daytime help and then be there to help out in the evenings....we will see

Maybe you should look at outer boroughs and buy a 2-family house with your parents. They can have the 1-bedroom floorthrough with the garden, and you get the duplex/triplex above. For the price of a 2-bedroom + 1-bedroom coop, you can probably buy a nice house within easy commute distance, with the advantage of living close to your parents as they age.

Buy a bigger co-op for both you and your parents.

Otherwise, no way in hell would any co-op board even consider this insane scenario:

-- guarantors
-- tenants whose income wouldn't even cover the monthly maintenance
-- tenants who don't speak English

How would this go over in a board interview? I guarantee it wouldn't even get to the point of an interview -- you'd have been turned down long before then.

1.sell
2.rent
3.begin the research for assisted living that best servers your parents language issues
4.Buy a coop? for what reason?

NYCMatt
about 2 hours ago
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Otherwise, no way in hell would any co-op board even consider this insane scenario:
-- tenants who don't speak English

concur Kyle and NWT, knew we had dog already run this thru the laundry cycle. Jackson, write again in 6 months when you've (further) taken no action.

romary thanks for your kind words.....but i actually got more feedback that i needed here...if you dont feel like reading/responding to this post...DONT....I have been chatting with my folks about this for a long time....elderly people just dont pick up and move...its a process and im not pushing them until they are ready.....perhaps you dont know what its like to care for elderly parents - but change is difficult for them...even when necessary...so im taking it slow but want to be prepared for when the time comes.....Falco....in order to protect assets from medicaid(ie if perchance one day they need a nursing home)....their investment has to be in real estate...not cash......only reason for manhattan is that i live here and its easy for them with doctors, etc.....assisted living will deplete all their savings.....if they want to go down that road, im fine with it but i know they prefer to leave my brother and i a small inheritance...it would make them happiest.....anyway, its a process.

Jackson: occasionally non-board approval co-ops come on the market. It's not as rare as you might think (incidentally, 3 of our 4 co-op purchases were sponsor units). In many cases, you're still paying far less than for an equivalent condo, and there will be fewer issues with the estate trust, etc.

Another thing to look into might be what others in your parents' situation have done, i.e. elderly folk with no English and from the same ethnic community. You may find there already exists a building somewhere comprised entirely of folks from the same community. In which case, they might be more understanding of your situation.

JacksonHole: you really need serious counsel on this from an attorney and financial advisor. I believe the laws may have recently been changed or are about to be changed regarding irrevocable trusts and medicare's ability to collect from real estate investments. Even without this, I'm not so sure medicare can take any assets in a trust over which parents have no control and the time to empty their estate is ticking away while you dicker around with your parents. I have actually dealt with aging grand parents and parents and know it is hard. I know they are resistant. But comes a time the kid glove approach needs to become more forceful since the parents' reluctance to act causes real and potentially severe impacts on the children and you get left holding the bag. It is a boundaries issue. They want and need your help, then they have to listen and accept some things on a time table that is not always entirely their own. This shift of authority from parent to child is difficult--admittedly--but it will occur one way or the other. One is in a controlled, logical, financially sound way that is objectively best for all. The other way is driven by crisis and emergencies when options are more limited and everything becomes a nightmare with money left on the table that could have been protected.

nyc...yes...will look out for the sponsor units......ive been thinking about sponsor apts as well..Kyle...yes, i know its a difficult transition for sure...my parents have complete control over their trust - all 4 of us are listed on the trust......we had it created via an eldercare attorney and they met the 5 yr lookback period so the house is completely protected and if they sell and purchase another home, its protected as well...but if they dont purchase after selling, the cash i believe is not protected.

my broker used to show me some high-end coops in midtown and downtown that no shareholder speaks english (some of them can, but 100% of them speak foreign languages)

Jackson: if your parents have "complete control" over the trust, then it is not the right kind of trust to truly protect assets. It needs to be an irrevocable trust over which they do not have control. At least that's my understanding. Not an expert.

JH, I have one parent who is 80 and in-laws in their 80s, so I feel for you.

One thing I don't understand about your situation -- and here's where kw's suggestion of an attorney would be helpful -- is how long you have to make the switch. Presumably your parents will need to sell their existing home (or at least be in contract) before you can seriously start shopping for Manhattan apartments. Depending on what neighborhood you want to be in, there may not be all that much inventory of sponsor units available at the time -- but if you then try to do a non-sponsor co-op purchase with a complicated board package, you could be looking at 100 days between accepted offer and close -- can you leave the money uninvested for that long?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I believe you can leave the money uninvested until you find a home.....btw...its a life estate trust...not an irrevocable trust.

If it is a life estate trust, that means your parents have control over all income they receive from the trust which means medicare could take all that income, no? In any event, you never asked about trust and estate issues which are best left for professionals. You asked about a co-op. And the bottom line here is that you had better have a very thought out plan B and plan C since buying a coop is a long shot in your situation. You can't search for "sponsor units" in coops on streeteasy. Actually, I am not sure how you would actively find one other than to happen upon it. And they are fairly rare in the market place representing a small minority of coop offerings. Best you think through and begin planning for the likelihood that coop living won't pan out.

JacksonHole, since your parents are in their 80s, I really think now is the best time to seriously consider either an assisted living situation (that can later be stepped up to full nursing care), or using the proceeds to find a larger home in which to merge both your households.

How much longer do you realistically think they will be able to live on their own?

I've been through this with my own family. Trust me, for your own peace of mind, it really is easier when the elderly relatives are under your roof. After my parents moved my grandmother into her own wing of their home, my father said "we should have done this ten years earlier." Ten years of trips to and from Grandma's ... ten years of maintaining two separate residences (lawn care, housecleaning, etc.), and ten years of a constant worry about whether she's ok ...

Yeah...we went to an estate lawyer....and supposedly its protected under life estate....yeah...i know coop will be difficult....but not impossible...esp if my brother and i are guarantors...we both have adequate savings and nice incomes....so what would the coop lose...

"what would the coop lose"

Speaking as a co-op board president, it's not a simple matter of "losing" anything.

Most co-ops (ours included) simply do not want guarantor situations; it's too complicated.

And don't even get me started on the fact that the primary (and only) tenants could theoretically not be able to communicate directly with any of the board members, the super, or even the building management.

If you're trying to protect assets, your parents could sell the house and give you, your brother and spouses $12k/yr ea tax free or ($48k/yr total, more if you have children), and remove lots of $ annually from Medicaid's reach with the understanding that you and your brother would provide support as necessary. They could either rent or buy something with your help, using the $ they gifted you.

Correction. Parents can ea give $12k, so $24k to ea child, spouse, and grandchild, so you can gift a lot of $ annually away.

JacksonHole, I would consider applying to NYCMatt's co-op and then after the rejection using the postings on this website as evidence of illegal discrimination based on natural origin. Ask a lawyer how much you might get in that lawsuit.

REMom, the parents could give the kids way over $12K per year as a gift but the amount counts against the estate deduction of $2MM or whatever it is that they have at death, I think. Anyway--that's lawyer/financial planning stuff.

Jackson: my concern is your continued resistance to what knowledgeable people here are telling you about coops. Not a single person here, many of us with coop board and coop admissions committee experience, has found your plan likely to work. It isn't an argument to be won or lost. The fact is, the situation you propose is messy and most coops will not want anything to do with it.

Plus, the idea of buying a home for people in their 80's makes no sense to me unless there are 3 bedrooms so that if one gets ill they can have a hospital bed in a separate bedroom and a health care worker who has a third bedroom to stay in (or for you or another caregiver to stay in on occasion). If this is not the kind of apartment you can afford, then why do it? They'll just have to be moved again which is very very hard on someone in their 80s and even harder if sick or if a spouse is sick or if widowed. Because of parental resistance and denial, it is important that when going through these things the children remain clear-headed and thing ahead 1, 5, and 10 years and have a plan.

But please, everyone here has said a coop is not really a plan for you--keep it as a long shot, but don't wait to explore alternatives that are more realistic. Otherwise you will ill-serve yourself and your parents and find yourself making emergency-driven decisions or having the decisions made for you by virtue of circumstance.

Have you considered just freezing your parents and keeping them in a hall closet?
There are about a half a dozen cryogenics companies in the United States today, all them legitimate companies utilizing the best currently known cryropreservation methodologies. There are two methods these companies use to cryropreserve you after you are legally dead (i.e. your heart has completely stopped beating):

Whole Body Preservation
Neuropreservation
Whole body means just that. Your entire body stays intact and is frozen in liquid nitrogen. Neuropreservation is a euphemism for the macabre thought of having your head severed from your body and just your head stored in liquid nitrogen.

On average, whole body cryropreservation costs about $150,000. Neuropreservation is somewhat cheaper, averaging about $90,000. Some companies also charge an annual membership fee while you’re still alive. These fees average around $500/year.

Mommy and Daddy on ice....that's nice

Falco...you are a MORON....hope you dont treat your parents with such ill comics...

In terms of GIFTS....i think that technically be recouped from medicaid if for some reason they enter into a nursing home and have to spend down to qualify for medicaid...but not 100%....

Falco ... gray?

JH, the Bush tax cuts were extended (and then some) one year ago. If your parents have substantial wealth (or even if they don't), they may gift a total of $5 million per parent, without being subjected to the gift tax. This was put into effect on 1/1/2011 and expires at the end of 2012, as things stand right now. After that, the gift tax exemption is slated to return to $1 million per parent.

http://www.natlawreview.com/article/5-million-gift-tax-exempt-amount-about-to-end

If your parents do this, it means Medicare cannot touch the money, since it is no longer theirs. If your heart is set on this co-op scenario, why not have your parents gift you the money, and you can purchase a co-op for them? If you're looking to put the co-op into a trust to avoid probate, you might have a hard time. But if all you want is co-op ownership, you can have it in all your names, with you taking care of the payments from the (untaxed) gift your parents provided.

Clearly this is a scenario that you should discuss at length with your estate planner and attorney. I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility, based on my extremely limited knowledge of your situation.

Gifts
Any income or liquid asset that you give to your family can be considered a gift under Medicaid guidelines. For example, giving your summer home to your children would be considered a gift, because the home could be sold for at or above value, and the money you receive would then count as income. Cash gifts, savings bonds and similar items are also considered gifts. This does not mean you cannot give your family members presents; items like MP3 players, books and clothing will not count against you for eligibility purposes. Not only are these items difficult to liquidate, they are considered personal belongings, not assets. Jewelry is the exception, as it is commonly used to hide assets because it is easily bought and sold

To counteract giving gifts for the purpose of hiding assets, the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 increased the stringency of gift-giving rules under Medicaid. The DRA specifically focuses on the transference of real estate and other assets owned by nursing home residents. Under the law, any Medicaid recipient who will be entering a nursing home and is seeking to have Medicaid cover the entire cost is subject to having all property and asset transfers reviewed. There is a five-year "look-back period," meaning any transfers that occurred up to five years before the recipient applied for nursing home coverage will be counted. Any property or asset transference by the nursing home resident in which the resident did not receive full value in return is considered fraudulent for the purposes of qualifying for Medicaid.

Speaking from personal experience, boards prefer all of the assets to 'back up' the sale to be owned by the actual homeowners. As guarantors, you might actually have to take co-ownership in the apartment, which will most likely get a rejection. Gifts are usually okay as long as the actual homeowners can easily afford the monthly payments on their own without the gift.

Unless something has changed in recent years, the way Medicare works is that you need to first exhaust all of your savings (except, if I recall for a de minimus amount) to pay for nursing home care, otherwise, Medicare will take it from you. Medicare will look back a certain period (3 years sounds right, but it could be 5). If you have given money away within that time, you will be ineligible to have Medicare pay for a nursing home. I believe that the primary residence is excluded. This is all from memory when my dad went through it with my grandparents a few years back.

Having said that, if your parents are in their 80s, an assisted living center seems the way to go. Realistically speaking, your parents ability to care for themselves is going to decrease dramatically with each month and year that goes. I would never tell anybody what they should do in this situation, but a partially assisted living center (that has a full care facility they can transition to) seems the way to go. My grandfather fought going into one for years. My dad finally had to get firm with him and tell him he had no choice (the house was falling down around him b/c he couldn't or wouldn't care for it). Once he got into the assisted living center, he loved it and said he should have moved in years earlier. Having said that, getting him to move in was a huge challenge.

Even better....here is an article in eligibility for nursing home care.

http://www.elderlawanswers.com/Elder_Info/Elder_Article.asp?id=2751

Yup...its now 5 yrs lookback...

I didn't realize the rules for Medicare extended that far. I thought once somebody "spent down" their assets, that was the end of it. Five years? Wow.

Assisted living with other attached facilities is best I think when looking at facilities. Some are even co-op type assisted living apartments that you buy. What you want is for there to be a nursing home right there too and a paliative care unit and an alzheimer's unit. At least that is ideal. It helps a couple stay together as long as possible and does lighten the burden on the family.

My grandparents moved to assisted living (a former hotel) at age 86. Both were in good physical shape but my grandmother had early alzheimer's. Within 2 years, she had deteriorated and had to go to the secured floor with 24 hour supervision and assistance. Because it was in the same building, my grandfather was able to visit her twice daily and they could, in essence, stay together. Had she been at a more distant facility requiring car rides back and forth for my grandfather, that would have made the next two years very difficult for him as the separation would have been even more profound. For my grandfather, after my grandmother was moved from the apartment, being in the assisted living facility helped because he ate meals with other residents, people cleaned his rooms for him, checked on him if he was late for a meal, took care of his linens, and generally helped prevent him from isolating as much as he might have otherwise.

Yeah, why pay for your parents' care when WE taxpayers can fund it for you.

The OP's question should be "even though. my parents can pay for their own nursing home is there any way you guys can help me buy a coop to circumvent them having to pay any money and leaving more of it to me?

But feel sorry for me cause I got old parents... umm... my parents aren't exactly spring chkns.

RENT them an apartment. Go to a nice rental apartment and get a five year lease with 5 yr option. If they hit 95yo, well god bless them... they are doing much better than the 18yos that got blown up in Iraq.

LOVEZ ali's question... OMFG... what are you gonna do with ALL that money for 100days? Hesus, can you imagine all the 6% you could be paying ppl like meh?

OMFG... money that isn't being spent, invested, spent.. .especially on my commission... if only more ppl would just spend... invest.. You know I don't give a shit about prices... just transactions, right? Did I actually say that out loud?

It's MEDICAID!

Medicare doesnt cover nursing home expenses.

Lower my fking taxes... but don't tax my mom and dad.. . cause they are old... I mean some of that might trickle down to me.. oh the golden shower...

the golden shower of death.... if only I can stop time in a bottle...

w67th.....you are an ahole...my parents only own a home(and its not even close to 7 figure value) and hardly any other assets....if they want to protect that asset its purely up to them and ethical.....its called estate planning........we pay all our taxes, etc and are middle class folks....unlike the RICH who have all these deductions and loopholes and dont pay close to what they should be paying..wait a minute...you are probably one of them!

Why does this have to devolve into personal attacks. Doing what the law permits you to do is what it is. Don't like it? Then lobby for legislative changes. No need to attack people for operating within the existing rule structure. Some people thing home mortgage interest deductions are bad policy, but to avail oneself of the advantages the law offers is hardly something to be criticized. I don't see any reason to criticize people for following the law and using those rules that exist.

i agree with you completely. I wonder why so many come on and rant and rave about rent stabilization as well.

Westie, I've gotten quite a few clients from this StreetEasy talk forum. At this point, the one thing they all have in common is that they all say some variation of "I admire how you endure the negative comments."

So, thanks for helping my business. Happy New Year.

Now, if you want to go back and re-read JH's question, it involves a couple who own a house (on which they presumably pay property taxes) who want to exchange it for an apartment (on which they will presumably pay property taxes).

These are not Bond villains, or even Wall Street people who are trying to move assets to the Caymans. They are middle-class people, and I think pointing out that they might technically violate whatever rules we're talking about here if they were liquid too long between transactions is a valid point.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Thank u for defending me kyle
First come the law. Then come the Unintended consequences. Then come the rants. Then come the changes.

I believe I am on step 4.

And yes, I am an ahole. For instance I deduct the mortgage on my boat as a second home. And really why do we differentiate btwn renters and prepaid renters? Maybe then your parents would have more rental options.... But I digress.

Let's talk about the poor 80yos who can only love in nyc coop with a stringent board that wont let them in.

w67.....kyle was not defending you at all.

if being an ahole makes me understand sarcasm... make me a big ahole.... a HUGE AHOLE.

Ali, I'm glad you can finally see the wisdom of my ways. But seriously WTF does property taxes have anything to do with being liquid... I mean if I listened to you and the other borkers on here in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and I'm pretty sure all of 2012, I'd be ballz deep in NYC RE... and I'd be down 30% plus commish, not an insignificant sum on a $2-$2.5MM purchase... now take the $300K (not lost), take my age (40 subtract 85) compound 45 years at 3%, and there be my two 21yo nurses bathing me naked twice a day expense.

BTW, my wife and I financially support my demented non-saving/couple of misfortunes 80yo mum in law. We are in contract to buy a coop for her so that she can be near us, but WTF do I know?

Oh, jacksonahole. Why don't you and your bro, jacksonbrohole, just buy them a 1bdrm in your name? You pass the board and then stick your parents in there?

>Westie, I've gotten quite a few clients from this StreetEasy talk forum. At this point, the one thing they all have in common is that they all say some variation of "I admire how you endure the negative comments."

I admire your clients for being able to endure a broker who doesn't care about price, only volume.

-

Jackson, this whole thread is shocking. Shouldn't you be talking to an estate planning lawyer or are you trying to save a buck or two with what potential risk?

It's pretty damn cold out right now....

Cryogenically speaking

falcogold1
8 days ago
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It's not the attacks
It's the hijack of the thread for your own purpose of continual nonsense unrelated to real estate.
Contribute something meaningful or masterbate elsewhere.

Please.

Now,
Why couldn't you do this:
1. Sell
2. Parents plus you and bro form an RE LLC.
3. Buy a CONDO with $ from sale and rent it to your folks.
4. Rent covers cc + mortgage
5. Folks live out their natural lives there with the shares in the LLC to be divided up to best serve your needs.
6. Medicaid has stringent requirements with respect to long term care and you can't always plan out their actual future needs.

You look like your going to make an end run at long term independence for your folks. bravo
Best place to do that would be in the same building as the one you live in....no doubt a coop. It's actually a great plan if you could pull it off.

Word of caution from one who has been there...elder care can be quite consuming...on an epic scale.

How does the math work to get to number 4?
1. Sell
3. Buy a CONDO with $ from sale and rent it to your folks.
4. Rent covers cc + mortgage

What is bothersome about this thread is that the original poster seems to be motivated by inheriting as much of his parents' money as possible, rather than finding the best living situation for himself and his parents...

Are they unhappy where they are? I can't imagine an 80-year old couple really wants to get up and move because "prefer to leave my brother and i a small inheritance"

What preferences have they expressed about their living situation?

OMG.

Joey, that thought never even occurred to me, but you're right!

My parents are only in their 60s and I'm already thinking long-term about eventually buying myself a big house to share with them.

You are WAY off base if you think i am concerned about my inheritance - i could care less......my parents live in a split level home and are having issues with stairs and told me expressly that they want an apartment(and they initiated the life estate trust yrs back to protect their small investment).....if you think i want to deal with selling/buying etc for my parents as something i look forward to you are totally off base along with your comments....i would love for them to stay in their home until they pass....and in terms of devotion to my parents....i have been speaking to them daily my whole entire life and visit them 1x or 2x per week and do all their medical/insurance/tax etc issues.....thats what kids do from growing up in homes where parents dont speak english...i wonder if you are as devoted to your parents...i hope you are ...i treasure them and dread the day they are no longer on this earth..

That's good to hear, JacksonHole.

So why aren't you considering a larger home to share with them?

I might consider that...but i would prefer separate apts where i could look in on them daily if they moved into manhattan....vs living together.....not sure....we will see..plus if i purchased a larger apt(not many 2 beds that i actually can afford if any), i still have the issue of what to do with their home...

Does it have to be Manhattan? Couldn't the family home be in Brooklyn? There are some very large apartments (and even affordable houses) in neighborhoods like Ditmas Park.

I prefer manhattan for them(and for myself) since its close to all good doctors, etc and i also love it here....i grew up in brooklyn...thats where they currently live...

jacksonhole, i don't understand something. i get that you guys are from brooklyn, presumably from a large community of immigrants from your country, since your parents lack of fluency in english implies they simply have no need for it. do they (and you) understand that their new doctors, the people at their markets, their neighbors, etc will not speak their language and they will be completely isolated? don't they buy their food from your ethnic market? what would they eat? i get that manhattan is super convenient, but your parents are pushing 90, where are they even going that needs to be convenient? except their doctors and the store. where they will now be unable to communicate with anyone and be forced to completely rely on their son. whose idea was it for them to move to manhattan?

jh, if you're out there and listening i think this is the most important piece of information that you will get:

(with all kudos falcogold1):

"Word of caution from one who has been there...elder care can be quite consuming...on an epic scale."

They speak broken english and understand most of what is said.....but from a board perspective i dont think they would pass the muster...and they dont live in an immigrant community in brooklyn.....they live in a very middle class area with nice homes, gardens etc closer to the ocean and not the city....and they are closer to 80 not 90....

i'm going to try again.

this whole area (care for aging parents) is ridiculously difficult. try to find ways to simplify it rather than complicate. anyone who has been through this and is honest understands the immense difficulties overall and the specific difficulty that you have brought up about preserving assets.

if there is enough money to matter, try to find a lawyer skilled in this area. try to find close friends who have been through it.

this is a lesson is not having control.

FWIW, don't let your parents have care under Medicaid. It's really substandard care. No good doctors take medicaid and if you've visited a nursing home that accepts Medicaid, you would not want your parents end their lives there. You will regret this for the rest of your life since you and your brother can afford better.

Jhole.. why don't you go live on the upper floor of their home and pimp out their living room?

OR you could live there on the weekends and hire a full time helper during the week. You know shuttle them to some ethnic cultural center where they can play mahjhong and do little dances. funny shit, but my mom's taken to hanging out at a jewish/russian senior center in brooklyn... she's neither jewish nor russian... go figure.

Oh I know... you love them but why should you have to endure a 25 minute commute into manhattan, when they've only changed your diaper for 3 yrs of their lives?

Gotta be in a uppity NYC COOP they can't pass bc of their language skills but gotz $$$, uptown problems. uptown problems.

cbreeze.....a nursing home would be LAST RESORT.....the more likely scenario would be that i would take care of them but they felt more secure in protecting the house 'in case'.....w67th....its actually a 90 minute commute from where my parents live to where i live..sometimes 2 hrs ....2 fare zone.....and i go there quite often but couldnt do that on a daily basis and work fulltime.....

you are assuming a status quo or a reasonable projection of it. ain't gonna happen. old people either get older or they die. no other choice. highly unusual that they both die at the same time. when one dies, the whole deal changes. as they get older the whole deal changes. i used to be where you are. i would never have listened to someone saying what i'm saying.

CC & Falco: you are making me very, very scared.

So what you're saying (as people who've been through this) is that there's no real planning possible because things can be so unpredictable? I've also harbored thoughts of moving the parental units to a nearby co-op.

But what are the things that should be done while parents are healthy? Will & healthcare proxy & end-of-life type discussions? Anything else beyond that?

My personal situation - parents in great shape (thin, exercise regularly, eat well, no chronic diseases), late 60s. Live in suburb with good public transportation, walking distance to supermarket, drugstore, giant mall. Their idea is to stay where they are as long as they can. Once they can't, either move to nearby condo or hire a FT or PT helper. If one is left (or the other can no longer live at home), then both move to assisted living or nursing home. They don't live close to any of their children (min. 1 hour drive). They claim that it doesn't matter, don't want to be a burden, blablabla.

My thoughts - okay, let them run with this, their lives to lead as they see fit. But of course, they could also substitute the condo/FT/PT-helper part with living with me or very close to me with help as needed. Or best not to do anything until the situation presents itself?

Over to you, BTDTs.

talk to them as often as is reasonable about their desires....general and specific. read this article if you haven't already) when you are in the right mood. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/7617/

all of this crap about the co-op etc is so totally beside the real point i don't even know where to start.

don't bother about planning, enjoy the next 10-20 yrs with them.

Yeah, my parents are all for yank-the-tube, DNR, don't treat.

We've all been bludgeoned by the specter of the sandwich generation enough. My parents themselves had to deal with teens & aging parents. They know what's coming. As a parent, my greatest desire is not to burden my children any more than necessary. But as a child and a parent, it feels very weird to lavish care on the young and just tell the olds to put their names down for a nursing home.

"until the situation presents itself" is the way I went and it worked out. Your parents are probably happy where they are living and sound healthy. I was in this same situation about 15 years ago and it is a concern to try to do what is best, but there isn't much to do to prepare in this respect unless they want to live close to you. They sound happy, keep a watchful eye and let them enjoy.

not to make you crazy but...

sometimes there is no tube to yank, just diapers to be changed.

Yeah, my parents housed & diapered a gparent under the same roof (as me). They did a darn sight better than I do emptying the diaper bin.

a lot more reasons to get rid of the adult diapers vs. the kid diapers as quickly as possible.

check out the "incontinence" aisle at cvs next time you're in there. they don't devote that kind of space without sales.

Bill: so what happened?

I really can't stay
(but baby it's cold outside)
I've got to go away
(but baby it's cold outside)
This evening has been
(been hoping that you'd drop in)
So very nice
(i'll hold your hands, they're just like ice)
My mother will start worry
(beautiful whats your hurry)
My father will be pacing the floor
(listen to the fireplace roar)
So really i'd better scurry
(beautiful please don't hurry)
but maybe just a half a drink more
(put some records on while i pour)
the neighbors might faint
(baby it's bad out there)
say what's in this drink
(no cabs to be had out there)
i wish i knew how
(your eyes are like starlight now)
to break this spell
(i'll take your hat, your hair looks swell)
i ought to say "no, no, no sir"
(mind if i move in closer)
at least i'm gonna say that i tried
(what's the sense in hurtin' my pride)
i really can't stay
(oh baby don't hold out)

both:baby it's cold out side

i simply must go
(but baby it's cold outside)
the answer is no
(but baby it's cold outside)
your welcome has been
(how lucky that you droped in)
so nice and warm
(look out the window at that storm)
my sister will be suspicious
(gosh your lips look delcious)
my brother will be there at the door
(waves upon the tropical shore)
my maiden aunts mind is vicious
(gosh your lips are delicous)
but maybe just a cigarette more
(never such a blizzard before)
i've gotta get home
(but baby you'd freeze out there)
say lend me a coat
(it's up to your knees out there)
you've really been grand
(i thrill when you touch my hand)
but don't you see?
(how can you do this thing to me?)
there's bound to be talk tomorrow
(think of my lifelong sorrow)
at least there will be plenty implied
(if you got namonia and died)
i really can't stay
(get over that old out)

both:baby it's cold
baby it's cold outside

I'm just say'in...........

nyc10023, my father passed a few years ago and my mother this year. Guess what? It was on their own terms. There was no diaper situation or other issues of that sort, so they were lucky. They didn't want to leave the country and come back to Manhattan. Through this I learned to be there for them without butting in. It's a fine line, but at least I finally got it.

Bill....Im glad it worked out for you and parents and sorry for your loss...