reputation of small brokers?

JC Deniro is a REBNY member as far as I know and fairly well known. I wouldn't call them a "small broker." No, I don't think Streeteasy does any vetting of agencies--otherwise how could a shop like ARDOR actually get by on here? When speaking to any agent, be very clear in having them state whether or not they have a SIGNED agreement to represent the property about which you are enquiring. Many of the bottom feeders troll for "for sale by owner" (also known as "FSBO") listings and then advertise as if they rep the property--all they are doing to trying to rep YOU and collect a 3% commission by 'introducing you' to the property. These guys will talk all around your questions and try to not answer you about whom they actually represent.

The scenario you describe is exactly what I'm trying to avoid! I'm working without a buyer's broker, and am still learning as I go. I think most of the firms I listed are actually REBNY members - but what does that really mean? Some of them have listings in new developments that aren't really theirs (ex: Urban Sanctuary has at least one listing from 151 Wooster which is really being marketed by Corcoran). I'm just trying to identify those "bottom feeders" so I don't waste my time calling them.

A simple, common distinction is that the brokers kylewest describes fishing for buyers usually don't have addresses in their listings, because they don't want you to go to the seller yourself. If you suspect a listing is one of these, search the NY Times RE listings. You'll often find multiple brokers advertising the same unit, usually with different pictures of the same place. You can often find the seller's own listing stuck between some of the brokers fishing with his/her property. Also, don't be surprised if the prices are slightly off between different brokers for the same property. Sometimes the original FSBO is actually on Craigslist, so it's worth checking there, too.

Basically, if all a listing gives you is generalities w/ no address and no/few specifics, it's probably a broker fishing for buyers. The broker might not even have a specific property in mind. The more of these you see, the more obvious it will be.

Very good info from tenemental. Other signs of fishiness are really amateurish pix that look like they were shot from the hip with a point and shoot camera. Also, the bottom-feeders' ads will almost invariably lack a floorplan. Go to the broker's site and see what other properties they "represent." If the whole ad/website/broker seems schlocky (bargain basement, cheap, misinformed) warning flags are likely warranted. No substantial and decent property is going to get listed with one of these Ardor types of brokers.

Now, some small brokers are terrific. But their ads have addresses and floorplans and all the earmarks of legitimacy. They tend to represent clusters of buildings in a particular area of the city. In other words, they specialize. No reason to shy away from them. But if they are legit, it will be clear.

My firm, DG Neary, is a small broker -- we like the word "boutique" -- that has been serving downtown for decades.

Buyers generally find us through referral, so they know our reputation, but the best way to explain who we are to others is that we don't list other people's junk, we list our exclusives.

As tenemental pointed out, a specific address is the best clue to a "real" listing.

Also, we are REBNY members, so I think that confers a certain amount of credibility; I don't know whether you guys think it does or not.

Best
ali r.
{downtown broker}

ala737

I am curious....why are you not using a buyers broker in your search?

Lofts - I started my search well before I needed to move (well, to be honest, I don't "need" to move at all, but a bigger place would be nice) and didn't want to work with a broker who might try to pressure me into making a premature decision. Along the way, I made an offer on an apartment and the broker was so desperate to make the deal work, she offered to give up half a point of her commission. That drove home the point that not having a buyer's broker is a great negotiating point, and I'm not sure I want to give that up.

Frankly, a seller's agent giving up a half point is not all that generous. And if the sticking point on a deal amounts to just 1 percentage point, then a buyer's and seller's broker would not exactly be breaking new ground to each kick in 1/2 point to make it happen. There are reasons to go it alone, but I don't think the rational you provide here is a sound basis for not using a qualified buyer's broker--particularly if you are not all that conversant yourself in the world of NYC RE. If you are a newcomer to NYC RE, what will happen if you have no broker is you will likely end up relying upon the seller's agent for guidance in areas they probably aren't the best for. If you decide to continue on your own, it is essential you use a very qualified attorney whom you trust.

kylewest - I appreciate your comments but I started the thread with a pretty specific question without the intention of veering into a discussion about whether or not I should be using a broker. But heck, I'll tell you why: 1 - none of the four people I know who bought/sold apartments recently were happy with their brokers, so I had no personal recommendations to go by. 2 - I did not want to waste someone else's time or be pressured while I was looking casually. 3 - I have yet to meet a broker who has ALL of the following qualities: intelligent, knowledgeable, experienced, and honest. 4 - I did get glowing recommendations for a real estate lawyer, an architect, an engineer, and two contractors - all of whom have given me great advice and collectively steered me away from the deal mentioned above.

If we're going to go off-topic here, it would be great to hear from people who have advice about how to navigate this market without a buyer's broker. Thank you.

Hi I have bought 2 coops and 1 condos so far. For the 2 coop transaction, we did not have buyers broker at all and it never was a problem. We like that way and I completely agreed with ala737. For one condo, I was taken by a broker to this new conversion condo so he did get commission from that but he did NOTHING ELSE but took me to the sales office. If you have some broker who you can really rely on, great, have him/her as buyers broker, but I so far did not find myself needing one. Anyway, ala737 - small broker firm you mentioned are mostly very dumb and fishy how they market their sales and I would never use them, besides, I don't think Tabak and JCDeniro are one of them. They have mostly their exclusive listings and they look great. Others, stay away..

Best advice is from kylewest and tenemental. Avoid listings that seem in any way general, and (especially) those which lack a specific address. One thing I will say about kylewest's note about photography is do not let a superb photograph fool you either as sometimes these companies will advertise a new development and use their photos which of course are excellent. You will develop a 6th sense very quickly. Whether these firms are rebny or not--in my opinion--is irrelevant to you in this situation as most of these "bottom feeding" firms are indeed Rebny. And incidentally Luxe Group has their own exclusives, so approach this on a case by case basis and don't just ignore a real seeming listing because you have never heard of the agency.If in doubt shoot the listing agent a quick email asking if it is indeed their signed exclusive,

How to navigate the market without a buyer's broker --

Let me posit that a buyer's broker offers you four things:

1) convenience of help shopping
2) negotiating savvy
3) downside protection (e.g., steering you away from a bad building)
4) help with closing (specifically, navigating through a board process).

You are functioning without a buyer's broker because you enjoy doing #1 yourself, and your team -- especially a good attorney -- will do #3 for you.

So you need to concentrate on #2 and #4.

A good listing agent should know his/her building's board and be able to help vet your package. Where buyers and agents screw up on #4, really, is a failure to apply the rules of formality. Generally when candidates blow it they blow it because they thought they "deserved" the apartment, and tried to go through the process in a cursory manner.

So keep in mind that you need to thoroughly prepare your application, wear a suit to the interview, and speak only when spoken to. You will go a long way if you treat the process with the same gravity that you would, say, an application to a top law school.

How do you master #2? Well, the buyer's broker argument is that you can't -- that nobody, even trained negotiators, negotiates that well for themselves. But since you want to DIY, the best strategy is to fall in love with two properties, so that you set up a scenario of "target property or backup," not a scenario of "target property or nothing." That reframing will help you a lot.

Cheers
ali r.
{downtown broker}

front_porch/ali r., I've said some pretty nasty things on StreetEasy about brokers - all, I believe, well deserved - but you've given some solid advice here and should know that it's appreciated.

front porch's information strikes me as balanced and informed. If you are a lousy negotiator (someone who says things like "I just hate the back-and-forth so here's my bottom line--take it or leave it!") or not all that attentive to details, going it alone may not be for you. If you are ready to take on what front porch lists as #2 and #4, you may be absolutely fine on your own. Go for it.

More worrisome are people who have trouble negotiating for a new car but think they are up to the task for the most expensive purchase of his or her life--a home. Negotiating is a true skill and art, and you really can't "fake it" and make it up as you go along. A skilled negotiator will run circles around you and you won't even know it's happening.

Similarly, when I sat on a coop board, professionally prepared application packets usually sailed through approval because agents familiar with the building and the requirements vetted the package and applicants first. On the other hand, the denials we issued most often were in connection with applicants who couldn't manage to type a few forms and supply exactly what we clearly requested on the first go-around, or who were so unqualified we couldn't imagine what they were thinking when they applied.

kylewest, on a couple of occasions when I've come close to buying and didn't have a buy-side broker, I asked the sellers broker if they would be there to guide me with the co-op app (not the lawyer or anything where a conflict of interest would occur). I was assured they would, which makes sense, since they're getting all the commission money and have a very strong interest in the buyer passing. I know each broker is different, but how likely would you (or anyone else) think it is for the seller's broker to follow through and help the buyer through the board approval process?

The seller's broker loves the six percent and will absolutely help the buyer through the board approval process. The seller's broker will help so very much (and be required to do so by the major firms like Corcoran, etc.) that the buyer will be annoyed that the seller's broker is working so hard to make the board package so A+ deluxe.
Regarding the pros and cons of buyer's brokers --- that's been discussed in the great detail on dedicated threads and the general consensus seems to be that buyers' brokers are often much more trouble than they're worth.

In case this wasn't clear: the buyer will be annoyed with the broker for working so hard on the board approval package because it takes an ungodly amount of time And I'm pretty sure that the major firms have people higher up than most of the brokers who carefully inspect the board packages to make sure they'll pass ------ then this is used as a marketing chip by various big name firms ----- "our board packages are never turned down!!!!!"

tenemental: in my experience the seller's broker will help you and lead you along with the board package every bit as much as a buyer's broker would. You should be just fine in that regard.

I don't disagree that a seller's broker will help with package. Problem is I can't select who that is if I'm a buyer and I can't stand most brokers. I mean really can't stand them--even in brief conversations. Personally, I've preferred to and been lucky to find someone I love, and I just have her deal with the other side's broker. Since most brokers are dreadful, the idea of placing the success of my purchase in the seller's broker's often incompetent hands doesn't make me happy. Wanting a 6% commission can't overcome basic ineptitude

Well I don't disagree that there are a plethora of annoying and incompetent brokers out there. As I am a broker myself, clearly I have dealt with many of them. That having been said, it is fairly clear from tenemental's posts here that he has no interest in working with his own broker. The answer to his question is that yes he will have guidance and help with his board package. And from a formulating-a-board-package perspective i feel the ratio of competence among the kind of brokers who list properties is higher than competence in other areas of the field (negotiating, etc). I agree that having a terrific, smart broker whom you trust and like is the best way to go. I just don't feel that fear of being left alone to handle one's board package ought to be the driving reason, thats all.

nyg: agreed.

Thanks all for the compliments -- my feeling is that there are enough real estate transactions in Manhattan for me to make a living, and it is simply better all around that buyers or sellers who want to represent themselves do so from the get-go, rather than wasting my time having me pitch them and then disappearing.

ala737, the listing broker should review your package, but as kylewest points out, just because you love the apartment doesn't mean you'll love the broker representing it. One way around this is to ask the broker to give you a sample recommendation letter they like -- perhaps one they've used with the identity blacked out -- so that you can seeing what you're aiming for before the package gets reviewed.

I also have some tips on my website, if you'd like to check them out. Go to www.frontporchllc.com and type "oldie" (as in "oldie but goodie") into the search box on the right-hand nav.

That will get you to a summary post that will lead you through the website to posts that will be helpful.

Searching "board" would probably work too.

Cheers

Ali r.
{downtown broker}

5 years ago we bought a co-op and the broker was not helpful at all. Other than bringing us to the property which we saw ourselves on the NY Times, they were not much help. We are now selling our co-op and trying to do a sale by owner. We get everyday so many emails/phone calls from brokers trying to represent us, most don't have much to offer. Our experience showed us that most buyers in NY find listing on the NY Times and can connect with us directly. We may be missing some buyers and it may take longer, but our price is better and we have some more control that way. Also, the commision is so high! Sure, there are some great brokers out there, but you need to get good referrals. We had a great lawyer which helped a lot!

hypothetically.. if i found a property thru a broker who does not rep the property in question, am i legally bound to compensate the broker?

You don't compensate a broker. The seller does.