building at 254 Park Avenue South

My broker had mentioned this project to me a few weeks ago but based on the price per sq. foot it was something that we were not interested in. However, we were passing by on Sunday and walked into the sales office out of curiousity to see a price list, floorplans,etc. No sales person was available and the receptionist would not give us any written materials without first seeing a sales person. So, at least they have attitude going for them. We'll see how that works out.

the broker called me to follow-up on my visit. he is now asking me if i would like to combine several studios and the sponsor will give me a good incentive to do so. i think they need to figure out their marketing strategy. there are 160 units in the building with the majority being studios. is there a strong market for $750,000+ studios facing interior courtyards? i don"t think so.

if looking at 254, also take a look at 240 and 260 ... 260 is a high end conversion by a high-end developer and 240 is a brand new building by the same developer

These prices per square foot are too high in my opinion. I think the comparable building to judge by is 260 Park Ave South, which is connected to this building (and the interior facing units of 260 face 254). And 260 is a high end development. I just don't see how studios can go for $1700 a square feet in this building.

email received from broker:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:10:01 -0400
> To: cory@254pas.com
> From: cory@254pas.com
> Subject: 254 Park Ave South
>
> Good Afternoon;
>
> I wanted to take a moment to introduce myself and inform you that I have joined the sales team here at 254 Park Ave South and share with you some recent exciting developments with our community.
>
> A selection of previously unavailable homes have now been made available to purchase. With construction moving quickly and sales approaching 50%, this is the time to see what's new and to take advantage of this new opportunity.
> If you are still in the market for a brand new home please contact me as soon as possible.
>
> Thank you for your time and I look forward to working with you soon.
>
> Cory Walter
> Senior Sales Associate
> 254 Park Avenue South
> New York, NY 10010
> 212.254.2552 (ph)
> 212.254.2553 (fax)
> cory@254pas.com

Oh my broker got me in there.

I think that the finishes & model apartment are GORGEOUS, ebonized oak floors & 14 foot ceilings. Very very sexy. And I love the green wallpaper in the lobby & halls. Not with you on the 80s feel at all. I think it's pretty sleek & sexy. The designer (Charles Allem) did a fabulous job.

However NONE of the units have private outdoor space, the price psf is very high and the common charges are RIDICULOUSLY high ... like $2.50/sf or something.

And you're right, their sales team isn't very helpful. They didn't give me "attitude" per se but my broker did tell me they were difficult to schedule a showing. And they claimed that the sponsor didn't tell them any prices, so they couldn't quote me an official price, just approximations.

In the end I'd never buy there, because I insist on private outdoor space, and their common charges are through the roof while their amenities are non-existant. But I did take video of the lobby & model, and plan on using some of their designs when I renovate.

I agree wtih frederic12's comment above

' it looks like an apartment that could have been marketed in the 1980s. finishes are sloppy and done to a below average standard.'

In my opinion, it is a very bad imitation of the work that Starck did many many years ago.The finishes are cheap high end wannabees, for example the floor is meant to look like an ebonized wood floor. But it's actually a badly stained engineered bamboo floor...they couldn't even master installing real bamboo. It's cheap cheap cheap. The wallpaper in the hallways is some hideous dark grey heavy 3D vinyl with vertical lines. The model that we saw, the wallpaper was not installed correctly and the lines on the vinyl wallpaper were not straight.

You're looking at paying $1700 psf for a studio?

Come and talk to me about my one bedroom and leave your broker at home.

I have private outdoor space, lots of light and air, and windows in every room. My building has a stable cost structure. While my maintenance is a little high compared to typical one bedrooms, the maintenance is 65% tax deductible. You don't need a jumbo loan to buy my place.

I'm at 407 Park Ave South, not that far away from 254 Park Ave South.

See:

http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/253-NS81208109/407-PARK-AVENUE-SOUTH-NY-10016

and:

http://web.me.com/mac.hive/407PAS/18B.html

"sales approaching 50%"

Can't get a mortgage at that level. 70% is needed.

sorry 407PAS, but your building, well, sorta sucks. Built during the 80's real estate bubble by kalikow, it's conversion was another precursor to the real estate bubble bursting in 1989. and it looks just awful. 254 isn't much better. Restored by one of the cheapest renovators and perpetual "Worst Landlord" Village Voice nominee, Hal Thurmond of Thurcon properties it was packaged along with a bunch of other Thurcon properties in '01 and sold to a converter. The building has nice bones, but getting by the skin is too much for even the hardiest of suitors.

You're so sure my building sucks and you've never lived in it? Yeah, right, thanks. All buildings suck by some measure, let's face it. There are no perfect buildings. I've been in dozens of places that sucked a lot harder.

At least I'm not paying anywhere near $1700 psf for my level of suckage and neither would the next buyer. You people are all dazzled by fancy finishes and never consider what actually makes a place nice to live in, which is, the amount of light and air you get! Both of these things are in short supply in the city.

My building is in good shape and does not look awful, regardless of what you think. We had brand new windows installed a couple of years ago that are absolutely terrific. They are very tight fitting, shut out the noise, and can be cleaned. I even have cross ventilation in my apartment because of having two exposures, probably not something you're going to get in that little studio.

Our services are in good shape, we have reserves for the major systems and we have fast elevators, something that is important when you're living on the 18th floor, as I do. We have an excellent laundry room with lots of commercial quality washers and dryers. We also have some free storage space for suitcases as well as bicycle storage. We also have a roof deck with an incredible view of Manhattan.

I always expect mean comments from StreetEasy people and I am never disappointed. I am sure you live in a perfect building with no flaws of any kind. At least, I am honest about where I live.

I don't see how the real estate bubbles you mention have anything to do with life today. The building stands. It is made of iron and concrete and will not fall down.

407:
Nice apt, good light & views. I also like your ad. Good luck.

oops, sorry i hit the sensitive bone. In these sensitive times i should have said,"I'm sorry, but your building really sucks" or "pardon me, but why would you ever buy an apartment in such a butt ugly building"?

I've been in your building a hundred times. even before you knew the building existed sunshine. and speaking of air and sunshine, sunshine, 407 isn't exactly sitting on central, riverside, battery park, gramercy park, riverside park, or even marcus fuckin garvey park. you're on the back end of park avenue south where project like the jasper go to die. lived in your building? nope. know your building. yep.
will the building fall down? nope. but then MSG won't fall down either despite our hopes and desires.

just trying to bring some objectivity to the desperation you brought to the table ( insert here your beckoning of the customer to sliiiiiiddee on over from that other dismal diamond in the rough, 254 PAS)

When did I ever mention that I had a park view? Where did you get that from? I said light and air, which exist inside and outside of park boundaries. Believe it or not, the sun shines over the whole city. The wind also blows across the whole metropolis.

Are you a broker? That would explain all. Why else would you be in my building a hundred times if you weren't a broker? If you have friends in my building or had friends, did you belittle their apartments and the building they lived in when you came to visit them? Is that what friends do, belittle each other's apartments?

I'm not desperate, I'm just selling an apartment like the rest of you people. You're probably just mad that I have the nerve to sell it on my own without any of you middlemen.

a broker? god forbid. a consultant? yes1 a developer? yes! and hopefully again in the future! i didn't say you had a park view, but for your sake I hope you do, because a $1,675.00 montly maintenance fee for a dinky one bedroom is..........., well,............. fucking unacceptable.

light and air inside and outside of park bounaries? are you sure or should i call NASA to confirm?

I don't have friends in the building any longer because: "friends don't let friends drink kool-aid"

desperate? nah. delusional? come on, you're not serious now are you?

ubbatubba - it's around $800 psf for an apartment in a convenient location. It seems to have good light, and be in good condition. Not everyone can afford, nor does everyone want, 260 or 240, some people would just like a decent place that doesn't suck them totally dry at the end of the day.

you know it would be so easy to have a knee jerk reaction, aboutready, regarding the $800/sf, but at the end of the day the building has virtually no curb appeal and it's maintenance fees are utterly out of this world. I assume the Maintenance fee levels aren't 407PAS's fault, but why try to suck someone in with the soft sales pitch he/she makes without some counterpoint? the beauty of the blogsphere....

Hey aboutready,
Thanks. You're right, not everybody can afford to be sucked dry by the prices at 260 and 240 and they should ask themselves what they are actually getting for their money.

ubbatubba,
No, you didn't say I had a park view but you seemed to imply I was saying I was near a park, because, after all, you named six different parks. I never mentioned anything about a park.

So, you say you're a developer, meaning a real estate developer? Well, good luck to you in this climate. You're going to get squeezed between the high cost of labor and materials and the declining prices. That's your issue, not mine.

Existing buildings have relatively stable cost structures and are a better bet in this climate than newly converted buildings. Those are just the facts. Your developer kool-aid is more poisonous than mine.

As I have said numerous times, the price of my apartment take into account the higher maintenance number and higher than normal tax deductibility number. It is all straightforward, I am not deluded about anything.

Look, it's an apartment. It is not a bad place to live, I know, I live in it. Fine for your friends if they made lots of money and can now afford something else. Other people can just afford my apartment and would be happy living in the place. It is decent housing and is convenient to the subway and to many things.

Haha, soft sales pitch, what do you want me to do, scream at people? What is wrong with telling someone to look at my listing? What did I do wrong?

It's a free market economy and I have a right to talk about my goods just like everybody else has a right to talk about their goods. I was merely pointing out that my costs are nowhere close to those in that other building, even taking into account my high maintenance. Comparisons between buildings are made all the time.

Actually, as time has gone by, and our maintenance has remained steady, the rest of the city has risen close to our level. We also saved a bunch of money with a refinance of our loan, for your information.

So, it is all down to curb appeal? Give me a break. The inside of the apartment and the exposures matter more than curb appeal. Curb appeal has some importance but it really is not the deciding factor.

The beauty of the blogosphere is that both sides get a chance to state their case. Maybe you weren't around on certain threads, but I have laid out the same facts with regards to my apartment on many different occasions.

Prices here are pretty amazing. Who were they targeting when they started the development plans? And who are they targeting now? Lot of smaller apartments, at high prices per square foot. No abatement? Might have been wealthy NYU grads paid by parents. Today? I doubt it!

Is this building actually getting people in? Their pricing changes would indicate so, but for the life of me I can't imagine why. I know 260 and the other new one attracted attention, but here would be surprising.

nicepad, no abatements as it's not new construction, a conversion of a commercial building i believe.

I am a purchaser at this building 254 PAS and have been in contract since last year. After much delay and a significant shift in the market, I believe it's time for action and for some issues to be resolved.

I am gladly organizing a collective effort to have our needs addressed promptly. If you or anyone you know is also in contract in this building, please contact me asap to share insight and to bring a solid resolution.

Thank you all

254pas_buyer - I have been looking at this building since January. While I like the location and the basic building design, I think it is way overpriced and have been waiting for the developer to become realistic. Given the high taxes and maintenance, this should not go for over $1,000 square foot in this market. It does not have the high-end finish quality nor the amenities to command a premium pricing. Not sur how I can help, since I'm not in contract but open to suggestions.

254pas_buyer - any luck? I've been looking at this building for a while and am reluctant to pull the trigger given the current price per square foot compounded by the high taxes and common charges.

Dear Potential 254 PAS Buyers:

Don't forget to inquire about the heating and ventilating units in each of the available units. In particular, it would be advantageous to ask about:

1) The quality of the brand.
2) The design details of the unit.
3) The year the unit was manufactured.
4) The details of the operating system: it's efficiency, how quietly it operates.
5) Installation details such as who installed the unit.
5) The warranty

Good luck

What's going on with this building? It's been the most stealth development out there.

Does anybody who already lives in the buiding has any comments to the potential buyer? Thank you.

They are rejecting good offers...THIS dude TIM is a joke

SHOULD NOT SELL HIGHER THEN 900 per FOOT

why should units not go for over 900 sq foot? this a great location, terrific high ceilings, etc. I dont get what is going on with this developer Rosen and why it's taking so long for the building to get completed. any thoughts?

goodguy33, can you please explain your comment? Have you uncovered any issues with the heating and ventilating units that we should be aware of? Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

TAKE CARE for this building,!!!!!!The prices are completly ridiculous,and change according the day,.....and the mind of the seller,!
and only 40% of building sold ,that means dangerous game.

hey everyone, sorry for the long absence, been dealing work and whatnot has made me forget about this post.

anywho, i ended up closing and i would say i'm overall happy with the place. there are definitely some issues with the "finishing touches" of the apartments (not the finishes, but the edging and cherries on top) but overall it's good. i would say yes, goodguy33 touched on a good point (i have a feeling i know who you are :)

the hvac units here are questionable but fine. i had a minor issue with it before but the workers in the building fixed it on the spot. so that's fine now. my main complain isnt so much the building itself (because i love the staff there, the new construction crew is helpful and accommodating) but the management. i hate penmark, always have always will. but i expect the management to possibly change soon

but you can't beat the location, and the prices are fair (where they're actually trading for, not where theyre asking). i even heard a small studio just rented here for $2600/mo which i believe since i've seen more pricey rents than this

i just can't wait until the amenities are completed, that'll be another few months.

anyone who have questions, feel free to contact me. thanks and good luck everyone

254pas_buyer -- Thank you. Your comments are very helpful. I am also considering a unit in this building.

A few more questions:
- Do you have a sense for what percentage of the units are sold?
- How far along are the amenities and when do they expect to finish them?
- There appears to be a huge difference in list price for similarly sized north facing versus south facing units. I haven't actually seen any south units yet -- do you have any input on the price discrepancy?
- Do you by chance know how the developer is releasing the units they intended to sell? Do they 'warehouse' units and release them as other units are sold?
- Can you elaborate a bit on your comment regarding the Penmark management company and your expectation that it will change?
- Lastly, can you discuss the closing process -- was it fairly easy/difficult? How long did it take?

Thank you!

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on how this building compares to
260 PAS?

i was looking into this building.
my lawyer tells me that the building is a non-eviction building.
meaning that there are rent stabilized/rent controlled tenants that needs to be bought out.
254pas_buyer - do you know how many renters are left in the building?
The broker is uncooperative and reluctant to give more info.

The statutory tenants don't have to be bought out. Those that don't choose to be bought out by the sponsor will remain tenants of the sponsor, who'll continue to own those units.

It's a condo, so will have lots of renters anyway.

but if there are too many, banks would not give you a loan.
also developer would control a large percentage of the building if they continue to own those units which banks do not like.

That's the quandary. Being able to rent easily is one of the reasons people pay more for a condo than an equivalent co-op, but lenders prefer buildings where the owners occupy.

I wonder whether 254 PAS has any pre-conversion tenants. It looks as if it was an office building.

Tenants per se aren't a problem. It lends a nice tone to these condo conversions to have neighbors smart enough to not buy. My co-op still has 20% RS tenants after 19 years, with no issues at all. I couldn't even tell you who's who. Back when it first converted and was only 50% sold, only a few banks would lend, but no problem now.

Hey guys, sorry for the absence.

yes, there are some remaining RS/RC tenants. but won't affect your purchase, there are only 9 from what i understand. in regards to pricing and stuff, give my broker a call or email him. he's awesome

Giefaan Kim from prudential

the problem is that the block and lot number has not been broken down. (you can check in acris)
From what i've been told, the city only breaks down the block/lot when a certain % has been sold, so only a small % has sold so far.
do you know how many units has sold?

254pas,

I assume the units I see for sale are all Sponsor units; what types of seller concessions for closing can one expect from the Sponsor, given that these units have been on the market for a while now?

Any info on this building? % sold? Closing price per foot? seller concessions?

here u should know about the builders and u can get more benefits here....
You cannot see if other builders could build that home at a lower price. With no competition this means it can be a very costly
way to build a home.
builders

Can anyone, owner, 254pss_buyer, give me your current comment about this building, development, prices, management and future resale value? I am an out of town buyer hunting for a condo in a nice location, well priced... Tks,