when did $4,000 become the price of a decent 1BR?

welcome to SE hoodia Van Winkle, did you sleep well?

Wait until unemployment goes from 10% to 8%. Then that $4k one bed will easily be $5k. Rent stabilization is headed to an end. People don't mind if someone has a 25% discount but when the discount is 75% market rate renters will band together and put an end to it. Then prices will go back down.

Maintenance and taxes are going up every year. Also, people expectations of quality has changed for a rental. Then there is demand and supply. In 2000, 3500 was not uncommon. 2009 and 2010 were too good for renters. Relative to buying a coop, rentals are generally break even.

Here's an option you may wish to consider:

http://www.springcreektowers.com/

Make fun all you want, but I lived there from 1986 to 1989 in a beautiful one bedroom apartment, with central air conditioning, 24 hour security & beautiful health club with indoor pool.

It was very well run then & still is from what I've heard.

The surrounding area has improved & grown as well; Fairfield Towers, a former rental complex just outside Spring Creek Towers, has been converted to a very successful condominium. Shopping options have expanded - chiefly the Gateway Center mall off the Belt Parkway, one exit east of SCT.

Granted, transportation can be an issue, either having to take a bus to the train, or express bus. If you have a car, it's right off the Belt, & with plentky of multilevel garages within the complex itself.

I only moved when I purchased my 1st co-op, in the Flagg Court Apartments in Bay Ridge.

Seriously, though: If you can live with the transportation issue, I would suggest you consider it.

Good Luck, in whatever you decide.

its happened over the course of 44 months or so since early 2009. 3 1/2 years of declining supply and steady/rising demand and here we are at the highest point since the peak, right now. Lets see how the story goes from here

No struggle on our end to pay, but it seems unnecessary, and the market too rich
One repercussion I've noticed is the younger people in my company seem to keep moving apartments, starting with lower prices but unreliable buildings and situations, and finally throwing in the towel to get a decent building but at high prices.

Maybe this is more an issue of the upper east but in my old building in lenox hill you can still rent a midsized 1-bed, 14-yr old building, elevator but no doorman for under 3000 and maybe dodge the fee.

people who "afe" smarter. yes.

but not their broker. particularly if they choose hones.

You know, for $4K, you could be renting a $2MM apartment:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/32476-help-should-i-buy

Jim, maybe you could help with affordability in Manhattan. You could lend your illegal wife / housekeeper to Hoodie, that saves about $200-$400 a month, right?

Jim is actually the type of broker who wants the landlord to cheat you out of your deposit:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/32638-bouklis-group-deposit-not-retrnd-false-rent-data

and for the market to be filled with false information

Even in East harlem a 1 bed goes for over 4,000 these days.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/914932-rental-1214-fifth-avenue-east-harlem-new-york

That's not East Harlem, that's Upper Carnegie Hill.

Upcarhi?

You should look into Battery Park City, the area is great and 1 bed rooms are around 3000 for luxury buildings. (Look at Battery Park South ex. 300 Albany St)

"People who are smarter, better educated and make more money want the same apartment you do"

or less smarter, less educated union toll workers working on the jersey turnpike pulling in $320,000/annum and residing in MePa.. taxes up, what.

http://open.salon.com/blog/catherine_forsythe/2010/10/25/new_jersey_turnpike_authority_employee_paid_over_320000

The $4,000 bedroom illustrates the flaw in rent vs buy where people focus so much on the now(or the then) and/or enter the wrong assumptions into those calculators. Over the long term, owning is a much better way to control home ownership costs. And save me the discussion that one could compensate by throwing the equivalent of the purchase price into the s&p 500. Who does that?

that assumes, RS, that the apartment will be $4000 forever and you'll live in it forever. it may very well be worth it to overpay in rent temporarily for any number of reasons, job security and potential for move being the ones that seem most compelling.

you're so simplistic. and plenty of people take the money they don't waste on purchasing a home and invest it. not your average worker, but your average worker isn't paying $4000 a month for a one bedroom.

ss400k, how do you know the intelligence level of the union toll worker? really, you need to get over your anger at the fact that a few (and likely very few) people seem to be making a lot of money in positions you think are demeaning and less valuable to society. I'd say they are acting quite intelligently, really.

please, i just did a quick search. there are plenty of renovated one bedrooms in full-service buildings for less than $3000.

>>>>> Aboutready says "there are plenty of renovated one bedrooms in full-service buildings for less than $3000"

You say full service building, OP says quality building. You say renovated, OP says decent bath and Kitchen.

Maybe you should post two or three such sub $3000 one bedrooms you found and maybe the OP can let us know if those meet his/or her requirements - I suspect not. Might be a case of apples and oranges and both of you are talking of completely different 'one-bedrooms'.

I never see the rentals that some posters claim support the rent side of rent versus buy in the GV area. I use the one bedrooms at 20 Fifth Avenue as an example of a high end, grown-up one bedroom apartment of the size and quality that would be comparable to something I would buy. The building is full-service, the apartments have interesting layouts with nice large rooms, and the kitchens and baths are typically renovated (very pedestrian renos, but you don't get more than this in 99% of rentals). They have good light and most have decent views. These one bedrooms rent for about $4,500-5,000/mo. Can anyone post some real life examples of other one bedrooms of this quality in this immediate area that cost less, and make renting more sensible in terms of pure dollars and cents?

There are always intangibles as pointed out above like if you rent you have the flexibility to move. Or if you own you can truly make the place your own through alterations and have a highly stable living situation well into the future. But these things are not part of the rent versus buy calculators. Let's just see some apartments that are truly less than the one I described. If someone wanted to live on the prime blocks just north of Wash sq., what should they rent that costs less than the 20 Fifth Ave apartment?

Sub $3,000 one bedroom of reasonable size in a full service building and prime neighborhood is only available if one has a time machine. That's not where the market is or has been for a while. That said, rental rates are not likely to go up from here at the same rate as the past few years and most likely level off or show very modest increases.

I'm sorry, but "top tier" buildings have long commanded $4000 for one bedrooms, doing so now is nothing new. The title of this thread references a "decent" one bedroom. A better-than-"decent" one bedroom can easily be had for less than $4000.

So why not post a couple of these "better than decent" 1BR so at least we all agree on what it is we are talking about?

cue inonada? He can rent a $2MM equivalent apartment (with $2,000 in maintenance) for $4,000 per month.

I have a tiny noise problem at my place and I cannot find a decent headphone that is not at least $1500.

inonada is getting hair and make-up.
After he's suited-up he will be right with you folks.

kylewest posted an accurate description of 20 Fifth.

I would like to better be able to describe the standards I mean, but not white old appliances in a florescent light windowless kitchen, no cracked tiles in the bathroom, wood floor newer than 10 years, doorman who is actually supposed to be helpful vs babysitting, landlord who is responsive and cares about the building , median age more than 25 year olds not because 25 is bad but their buildings stereotypically are. Few if any shares among non family members. Things like that. You know you would be able to tell the difference between what I'm talking about and a $3000 place.

i have found a number of units for less than $3000 that meet your criteria, and a number of them are listed by major management companies. matsui, i feel absolutely no interest in finding and posting examples. i did so here for years, i think i've earned some credibility in these types of discussions.

however, i will concede KW's point that it can be extremely difficult to find such a unit if you have your heart set on a few block radius in one of the top neighborhoods at a given point in time.

Since you mentioned Brooklyn, there are a lot of 1 beds in luxury buildings in DUMBO, Brooklyn Heights, prime Williamsburg under your price range.

Sorry if you felt insulted by my request. I was by no means trying to challenge your credibility or authority on the board. I was only trying to establish whether yourself and the OP were speaking about the same sort of apartment.

From your response and his, clearly is not the same sort of one bedroom under discussion so helps us understand the marked difference in opinion. I am not suggesting you are incorrect in what you say. No need to post any examples as OP has made clear what he was referring to is not these sub 3000 units you mention.

hoodia first post: "decent"

hoodia second post: whining, beyond "decent"

you deserve to pay over $4,000.

I'm talking well-maintained buildings with top of the line ss appliances and new baths, doormen, some with significant amenities. his description does not imply highest-end luxury.

perhaps he hasn't been looking at the right apartments. or he is only looking at no-fee apartments (although I did see some of those as well). or he is only looking in very highly sought after neighborhoods. but the title of this thread is misleading and quite frankly not true.

oh, wtf, here's one. it's not less than $3,000, but it's significantly less than $4,000. and it took me two seconds to find it. it might not sui

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/933177-condo-100-united-nations-plaza-turtle-bay-new-york

sorry, the cat jumped on my keyboard. it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is a full-service, luxury building.

"people expectations of quality has changed for a rental."

BINGO.

Everyone has been watching too much HGTV. 20 years ago, "decent" simply meant clean, with working appliances (of any age), and no insect infestations.

Today, "decent" means *brand-new* commercial-quality appliances, gleaming Brazilian hardwood floors, marble countertops, back-lit resin bathroom sinks with automatic faucets, and a computer-controlled toilet ... in a building serviced by no fewer than 10 full-time doormen/concierges who will not only hold the door for you and hold your packages, but will run errands and organize and supervise your children's playdates.

And by the way, I can't seem to find a "decent" jar of organic infused walnut oil for less than $175. Woe is me.

i feel kind of queasy. matt and I are in agreement on something.

ar,

Did you drop your empty glass cup that was filled with a screwdriver on your keyboard?

Neighborhood is important and relevant. UN isn't our cup of tea but its fine. Matt and Jim don't get it, Kyle does, About is half on the mark, crescent this is not whining, these are rational expectations we have.

Hoodia, I went back and read your posts from last year when you were similarly looking for a new rental. You claimed then to be a smart professional along with your boyfriend making decisions based on rational inputs. Well, here's the input on this market:

x) There a lessening supply of good quality apartments for sale in NYC- that's true by anecdote and urbandigs charts. Why - because little supply of condos has come on the market since 2008-2009 and every family or soon-to-be family that could move to the suburbs is nabbing every decent quality apartment for sale;

x) Banks aren't loaning to as many debtors on good terms due to capital constraints like Basel III and co-ops are getting even more stringent because they simply can;

x) That's pushed more people into the rental market where tons of rentals, including yours, were on discounted pricing from the 2009 dip;

x) Demand in the upper half of the rental market is doing better than the lower half due to lack of supply (aforementioned condo issue), the fact that the rich are getting richer, pied-a-terre and foreigner demand (especially this year with the euro scare)

One of the benefits of dumping tons of capital in ownership is the option to fix your carrying costs even on a nominal basis. While the conspiracy of all these factors is certainly in the minority of possible outcomes determining rental pricing, it's all plausible and possible, so if it affects people who don't have the option, you kind of have to accept it and accept the idea it could have happened.

As for kyle, while his comments may be accurate, he did not address your original post - he talked Village only- you originally posted the whole island and parts of Brooklyn. NYC housing stock does suck overall; you can get absolutely luxury in Chicago for probably 30-40% of the carrying cost- it's just a market you have to live with.

>i feel kind of queasy. matt and I are in agreement on something.

lately you've been agreeing with more and more posters. Recently ph41, now NYCMatt.

As with everything, so much depends on timing. I couldn't tell you accurately what a 1-bedroom or 2-bedroom rents for in my neighborhood, because I know there is huge variation in pricing depending on when you're looking.

Observation #1:
If you have to move when you have to move, and if your location constraints are tight, then you could easily end up paying close to $4000 in a doorman, "luxury" but not new building south of 96th on the UWS, north of 60th and east of WEA. Or $3000 if you can wait for a well-priced rental.

Observation #2:
In ANY building on the UWS, if there are both rentals and sales available in any one building, the cost advantage of renting FAR outweighs buying.

Observation #3:
As a practical matter, most landlords don't permit month-to-month rentals after the initial lease is up, so if you're renting, you're stuck trying to look for same-neighborhood rental in a short period of time and can't shop for a bargain.

I just searched SE and found 338 rentals on the UES for $3,500 or less. Where I am around Midtown East meets UES, that's about right.

I'm paying just over 3 for a large 1br in a white glove dm building. No pool, but a nice building with a modern gym and new roof desk, built in the last 15 yrs.

Sure I see prices creeping up city wide, but I wouldn't say avg is 4k quite yet.

Here's one on 86th in a nice Brodsky building - 3350

http://www.brodskyorg.com/rentals/east-side/the-croydon/unit-4107.html

Wow, very different conversation than a couple years ago. Where are all the people that said the market was going to tank? From a sales perspective, there is nothing out there in the UWS.

Thing is, the $4k one bedroom is nothing new. In a luxury building I was just in, the rents are finally back to where they were in 2007. (and well above $4k for one bedrooms)

> Where are all the people that said the market was going to tank?

Still here, still smug since being proven right with multiple quarters showing 15-20% off peak medians. (and still there on last count).

> From a sales perspective, there is nothing out there in the UWS.

The stats say it over and over again... people don't want to sell when prices are low.

"Still here, still smug since being proven right with multiple quarters showing 15-20% off peak medians. (and still there on last count)."

Doesn't change that prices are insane and rents continue to go up. You can hide behind your median data all you want, try to buy or rent something right now and tell me if you are seeing prices 15-20% below peak. No can do.

"The stats say it over and over again... people don't want to sell when prices are low."

People don't want to sell when there is no inventory and it cost to much to trade up.

"People don't want to sell when there is no inventory and it cost to much to trade up."

Bad logic. This pretends that only the price of what they want went up, but not what they are trying to sell. If the market was so great, they should be flooded with cash when they sell.

"rents continue to go up"

From the lows. We're still at prices lower than years back. And why are they up... because people aren't buying. You're not helping your case here.

"You can hide behind your median data all you want"

Chuckle. Forget data, I have... a guess? A wish?

"try to buy or rent something right now and tell me if you are seeing prices 15-20% below peak."
Uh, check the comps thread. Tons of examples.

Rents aren't 20% down... because they weren't as overprices as sales. Hence it being much cheaper to rent the last few years.

Thanks for the links I looked at some and not to sound like a snob, but the places are a bit less quality wise than we have now . Maybe we are victims of increasing expectations and too much industry marketing. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Can we just fast forward? hoodia is going to renew and the only change in this story from so many others that have complained about renewal quotes (including me) is the fact that hoodia & co. is doing an encore this time around.

hoodia, when are you posting next to complain about high rents?

Oh you guys are just silly now. Are you landlords or brokers trying to get me to buy?

swe is one of the last of the old fantasy land renters who still sticks to his distorted, cherry-picked numbers to convince himself that prices are down 20%

I totally agree with Op. See my post on the 45% thread. The market was just so tight and all you get for four grand is a real piece of crap place.

hoodia can't afford the city, but hasn't come to that conclusion yet. bitching about price doesn't change them. move out, or make more money.

hoodia
about 17 hours ago
Posts: 80
Member since: Jun 2009
ignore this person
report abuse

Thanks for the links I looked at some and not to sound like a snob, but the places are a bit less quality wise than we have now . Maybe we are victims of increasing expectations and too much industry marketing. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

in other words, you can't afford what you really want. think what you deserve. should have done better in school or chose a more lucrative industry. does it make you mad so many others can have when you cannot?

Jim Hones, you remind me of that cartoon Annoying Orange on YouTube, what is your problem? My schooling and career are just fine and likely better than any rental broker like you.

yet here you are, constantly complaining about how you have been priced out of the rental market. ironic, no?

does it upset you that people like me create the market conditions (by encouraging aggressive pricing through marketing, exclusive arrangements, etc) that make is so difficult for under-funded people like you to live here?

aboutready
2 days ago
Posts: 14981
Member since: Oct 2007
ignore this person
report abuse

people who "afe" smarter. yes.

but not their broker. particularly if they choose hones.

another whore who's been priced off the island.

Jim Hones you are a doll.

Hoodie, Jim has problems at home, that's why he acts out.

I've noticed even greater increases, getting to $4500 for anything decent.
Thought I'd post because of the discussion about scarce apartments for $1mm.

By the time I left the Rivergate (34th and 1st) 3 years ago, I was at $3800.
It was a proper 1 bedroom 1.5 bath and around 900 sq ft.
Aging building, but doormen, concierge services, etc.

Pro: I was on a very high floor with fantastic views.
Lower floors (like 3-10) were at least $500 cheaper.
Major con, Being on 1 st ave.

North tower will have some long term construction views. Im sure there is a bargain waiting for you there.