I received a few quotes from contractors which are all over the place. One guy wanted $140k. Another, who had a smaller business, asked $75k. And prior to all this, before I hired an architect (building required), other contractors offered to do the job for 40k. Do these people price based on how rich and gullible you are? My apartment is in a Manhattan luxury building that looks more expensive... [more]
I received a few quotes from contractors which are all over the place. One guy wanted $140k. Another, who had a smaller business, asked $75k. And prior to all this, before I hired an architect (building required), other contractors offered to do the job for 40k.
Do these people price based on how rich and gullible you are? My apartment is in a Manhattan luxury building that looks more expensive than it was. Sure, there were a few additions to the plan for compliance purposes (from the $40k estimate to the $140k), but not $100k worth. All I'm really doing is tearing down a sheetrock wall, building up a wall, putting in a bunch of closets, and adding a bathroom. I really think their pricing for the exact same amount of work would be half the cost if I was living in Queens, Bklyn, Bronx and not Manhattan.
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Response by UES10021
about 13 years ago
Posts: 33
Member since: May 2012
I think that the short answer is yes.
I have gone through two renovations so I have at least some perspective that makes me think that it isn't totally unwarranted. A few contractors openly admitted to me that there is a 2nd avenue price, and a 5th avenue price. Then went on to explain why that is justified. Depending on your building there is a different expectation about the quality of work that you are looking for. If you expect every tile to be perfectly level, then it is going to take them longer to get the job done. If you live on 5th ave, and you want new moldings it likely means something different than someone on 2nd ave wanting a quote for new moldings. I know that sounds obnoxious, but it really is true. Also there are likely more restrictive work hours and materials requirements in higher priced buildings. If a contractor can work until 6PM, versus 4 PM it makes it easier to get a job done quickly and cheaply. Imagine if a crew starts work at 10 AM, and has to set up all the padding in hallways and elevators for 30 min, and has to start cleaning up at 3 PM to be out of the building by 4PM, they only actually do work on your apartment for 4.5 hours. Compared that to a building that allows work from 9-6 where they do work on your apartment for 7.5 hours. The workers are likely getting paid the same or close to the same amount per day either way. Now imagine a building in Queens or Brooklyn or the burbs where they don't have to clean up everyday or pad the hallways and elevators.
I also experienced quotes that were all over the place. I learned through experience that much of the difference was due to comparing apples to oranges. Make sure all contractors are aware of the building requirements for renovations, and make sure they are bidding on the same scope of work including or not including the same quality materials. Make sure they are estimating a similar timeline to get the job done.
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Response by NWT
about 13 years ago
Posts: 6643
Member since: Sep 2008
The big money will be adding the bath. The same thing (splitting the one huge bath) was done in #1500, #1700 and #1800 upstairs. You might want to talk to them, or find out from the managing agent or the DoB who did those and what they cost, just to get an idea what's involved.
As UES10021 said, it's just a given that it costs more in Manhattan.
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Response by JWL2672
about 13 years ago
Posts: 138
Member since: Mar 2012
NWT, are we neighbors? What a coincidence.
I actually stopped by and looked at 1500 and 1700, (They were for sale) but never got to talk to the owners.
UES is right though. It's understandable to some degree because of difficulty of access but shouldn't be > +40% of the price. Strange too because a lot of contractors lose interest the second I tell them we're in Manhattan. You would think they'd want to get paid a good deal more for the same amount of work.
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Response by NWT
about 13 years ago
Posts: 6643
Member since: Sep 2008
No, but I figured out where you bought, back when you were talking about your old place.
primer05 should chime in here, as he works mostly in Manhattan but also out on Long Island. I don't know whether there's that much more actual profit on a Manhattan job, or enough to make up for the hassle. Out in the boroughs or suburbs you've got someplace to put the dumpster and for everybody to park, deliveries are less difficult, and on and on.
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Response by alanhart
about 13 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007
I just adore all the "stories" contractors tell for why they charge multiples of the same cost when they're working in wealthier areas. Some -- like higher expectations for quality of work on Fifth than on Second -- are laff riots.
A single-family townhouse renovation in the Silk Stocking District will cost way way more (for labor alone) than anything similar anywhere. No coop boards, dumpster right outside in the street, often even an elevator that can be used any time at all, and often with no residents from start to finish.
I can only speak for myself in regards to this subject. I could not care less where or how much money a client has. A 5x7 bathroom on CPW is usually the same as a 5 x 7 bathroom on 123rd Street. I am finishing up apartments on CPS for a client that must be worth north of 50 million and i am charging him not a penny more then anyone else. I do have to charge more money if a particular building has more difficult rules. Some require we put masonite in the halls everyday, that takes time, time equals money.
Typically we charge less for Long Island because it is easier to work there. We can work longer hours and on weekends and it ends up costing us less so we can charge less.
I am sure some there are some contractors that would try to charge more thinking that richer people will pay more but that is not the case, usually
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Response by rb345
about 13 years ago
Posts: 1273
Member since: Jun 2009
Primer:
A lot of contractors do price higher for those they consider wealthy. In 2007 I had
a painter quote me $20,000 to paint 350 sq ft of wall and ceiling.
Which works out to $400/sq.in. I passed because I thought his bid was too high.
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Response by huntersburg
about 13 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
>A 5x7 bathroom on CPW is usually the same as a 5 x 7 bathroom on 123rd Street. I am finishing up apartments on CPS for a client that must be worth north of 50 million and i am charging him not a penny more then anyone else.
Yes, but the person with the bathroom on 123rd street, would you give that person a discount if he or she asked?
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Response by Primer05
about 13 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
RB345,
Obviously that contractor didn't want your project for some reason. Maybe it was a typo?
Huntersburg,
If someone asks for a discount I would try to do that.
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Response by marco_m
about 13 years ago
Posts: 2481
Member since: Dec 2008
I think generically anything in 212 always costs more. I got quotes from multiple contractors for putting up a sidewalk bridge...there were a couple outliers that never returned my call as to why there was such a discrepancy. I think some people prey on coops becuase people dont always do thier due diligence.
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Response by oldgreyhair
about 13 years ago
Posts: 122
Member since: Nov 2010
I think UES10021 is spot on. I will add that doing work in Manhattan is difficult logistically. Sheetrockers and tradespeople tend to live outside NYC. Parking a work van in Manhattan is tough; even tougher if you don't have commercial plates. One parking ticket will blow the profit of one days work for the trades person. The pricing differentials become more acute outside Manhattan. If you have a home in Greenwich, for example, much more affordable bids come from the contractors east of Bridgeport than the very local trades person.
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Response by Primer05
about 13 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
Reasons why it is more expensive to do renovations then anywhere else (this is not in any particular order)
1. Limited amount of hours of work ( if we are lucky it could be 9-5)
2. Buildings with people running the service elevator ( We have lost 20 hours of man power per week in some buildings)
3. Traffic, not just getting to the building but going back and forth for supplies
4. Sidewalk delivers (Most companies in Manhattan will not bring good upstairs) my men have to stop what they are doing, wait for the elevator pick up all the tile, wood floor, cast iron tub,etc. wait for the elevator and repeat
5. Tickets. Thousands and thousands of dollars in tickets every year.
6. Garbage removal, much more difficult in Manhattan then suburbs
7. Sometimes, just sometimes payments to building workers
There are more but its time to start cooking for Thanksgiving
>No it's the same with taking care of old ppl. In most parts of the world housing, feeding, toileting an lderly grandparent costs nothing. They live win you, you make extra food, son/daughter washes and cleans them and then when they die, your grand kids dig a grave up the hill for a few hours.
Well, we don't have many hills open for burial around here, but w67 does have a yacht. Will mom67 get the Osama burial at sea treatment?
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Response by liamae18
about 13 years ago
Posts: 24
Member since: May 2011
I would be very careful with contractors comments on this Site. They are like predators, looking for willing clients to rope in. It's always the same few. I guess they have very little business and need to hook the next unsuspecting dupe.
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I think that the short answer is yes.
I have gone through two renovations so I have at least some perspective that makes me think that it isn't totally unwarranted. A few contractors openly admitted to me that there is a 2nd avenue price, and a 5th avenue price. Then went on to explain why that is justified. Depending on your building there is a different expectation about the quality of work that you are looking for. If you expect every tile to be perfectly level, then it is going to take them longer to get the job done. If you live on 5th ave, and you want new moldings it likely means something different than someone on 2nd ave wanting a quote for new moldings. I know that sounds obnoxious, but it really is true. Also there are likely more restrictive work hours and materials requirements in higher priced buildings. If a contractor can work until 6PM, versus 4 PM it makes it easier to get a job done quickly and cheaply. Imagine if a crew starts work at 10 AM, and has to set up all the padding in hallways and elevators for 30 min, and has to start cleaning up at 3 PM to be out of the building by 4PM, they only actually do work on your apartment for 4.5 hours. Compared that to a building that allows work from 9-6 where they do work on your apartment for 7.5 hours. The workers are likely getting paid the same or close to the same amount per day either way. Now imagine a building in Queens or Brooklyn or the burbs where they don't have to clean up everyday or pad the hallways and elevators.
I also experienced quotes that were all over the place. I learned through experience that much of the difference was due to comparing apples to oranges. Make sure all contractors are aware of the building requirements for renovations, and make sure they are bidding on the same scope of work including or not including the same quality materials. Make sure they are estimating a similar timeline to get the job done.
The big money will be adding the bath. The same thing (splitting the one huge bath) was done in #1500, #1700 and #1800 upstairs. You might want to talk to them, or find out from the managing agent or the DoB who did those and what they cost, just to get an idea what's involved.
As UES10021 said, it's just a given that it costs more in Manhattan.
NWT, are we neighbors? What a coincidence.
I actually stopped by and looked at 1500 and 1700, (They were for sale) but never got to talk to the owners.
UES is right though. It's understandable to some degree because of difficulty of access but shouldn't be > +40% of the price. Strange too because a lot of contractors lose interest the second I tell them we're in Manhattan. You would think they'd want to get paid a good deal more for the same amount of work.
No, but I figured out where you bought, back when you were talking about your old place.
primer05 should chime in here, as he works mostly in Manhattan but also out on Long Island. I don't know whether there's that much more actual profit on a Manhattan job, or enough to make up for the hassle. Out in the boroughs or suburbs you've got someplace to put the dumpster and for everybody to park, deliveries are less difficult, and on and on.
I just adore all the "stories" contractors tell for why they charge multiples of the same cost when they're working in wealthier areas. Some -- like higher expectations for quality of work on Fifth than on Second -- are laff riots.
A single-family townhouse renovation in the Silk Stocking District will cost way way more (for labor alone) than anything similar anywhere. No coop boards, dumpster right outside in the street, often even an elevator that can be used any time at all, and often with no residents from start to finish.
No ... they price on how poor they are
An interesting report on this topic:
http://www.ico-usa.com/ICO_Report_NYC_Home_Renovation_Bids_2012.pdf
I can only speak for myself in regards to this subject. I could not care less where or how much money a client has. A 5x7 bathroom on CPW is usually the same as a 5 x 7 bathroom on 123rd Street. I am finishing up apartments on CPS for a client that must be worth north of 50 million and i am charging him not a penny more then anyone else. I do have to charge more money if a particular building has more difficult rules. Some require we put masonite in the halls everyday, that takes time, time equals money.
Typically we charge less for Long Island because it is easier to work there. We can work longer hours and on weekends and it ends up costing us less so we can charge less.
I am sure some there are some contractors that would try to charge more thinking that richer people will pay more but that is not the case, usually
Primer:
A lot of contractors do price higher for those they consider wealthy. In 2007 I had
a painter quote me $20,000 to paint 350 sq ft of wall and ceiling.
Which works out to $400/sq.in. I passed because I thought his bid was too high.
>A 5x7 bathroom on CPW is usually the same as a 5 x 7 bathroom on 123rd Street. I am finishing up apartments on CPS for a client that must be worth north of 50 million and i am charging him not a penny more then anyone else.
Yes, but the person with the bathroom on 123rd street, would you give that person a discount if he or she asked?
RB345,
Obviously that contractor didn't want your project for some reason. Maybe it was a typo?
Huntersburg,
If someone asks for a discount I would try to do that.
I think generically anything in 212 always costs more. I got quotes from multiple contractors for putting up a sidewalk bridge...there were a couple outliers that never returned my call as to why there was such a discrepancy. I think some people prey on coops becuase people dont always do thier due diligence.
I think UES10021 is spot on. I will add that doing work in Manhattan is difficult logistically. Sheetrockers and tradespeople tend to live outside NYC. Parking a work van in Manhattan is tough; even tougher if you don't have commercial plates. One parking ticket will blow the profit of one days work for the trades person. The pricing differentials become more acute outside Manhattan. If you have a home in Greenwich, for example, much more affordable bids come from the contractors east of Bridgeport than the very local trades person.
Reasons why it is more expensive to do renovations then anywhere else (this is not in any particular order)
1. Limited amount of hours of work ( if we are lucky it could be 9-5)
2. Buildings with people running the service elevator ( We have lost 20 hours of man power per week in some buildings)
3. Traffic, not just getting to the building but going back and forth for supplies
4. Sidewalk delivers (Most companies in Manhattan will not bring good upstairs) my men have to stop what they are doing, wait for the elevator pick up all the tile, wood floor, cast iron tub,etc. wait for the elevator and repeat
5. Tickets. Thousands and thousands of dollars in tickets every year.
6. Garbage removal, much more difficult in Manhattan then suburbs
7. Sometimes, just sometimes payments to building workers
There are more but its time to start cooking for Thanksgiving
Happy Holidays
Vincent Gardeniaexplained it best in "Moonstruck"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1slibJ52yoc
>No it's the same with taking care of old ppl. In most parts of the world housing, feeding, toileting an lderly grandparent costs nothing. They live win you, you make extra food, son/daughter washes and cleans them and then when they die, your grand kids dig a grave up the hill for a few hours.
Well, we don't have many hills open for burial around here, but w67 does have a yacht. Will mom67 get the Osama burial at sea treatment?
I would be very careful with contractors comments on this Site. They are like predators, looking for willing clients to rope in. It's always the same few. I guess they have very little business and need to hook the next unsuspecting dupe.