Sagging floors in an old townhouse

Sagging happens with old age.

i knew i would get a non-constructive comment, but i want to get constructive comments.

besides, I thought REAL sagging happens when young guys and gals wear their pants that show part of their arses. i was sitting in the park the other day and this tough dude was sagging but half his arse was truely exposed when he bent over to tie his shoe. was he trying to send out messages.

so constructive comments please.

Our house upstate was built around 1800 and doesn't have a single right angle remaining. We didn't try to level, would have had to remove original wood floors in some instances. Our contractors worked around it, if you look closely it's apparent, but not hugely so, and most people wouldn't care.

aboutready - your comments were helpful

Have seen a brownstone of similar vintage with 3x10 wood joists spanning 25' between party walls. Deflection at the center was about 2-3" below the sides. Solution was to lay sleepers of varying thickness atop the old subfloor (the wood strip flooring had been removed), then lay down new 3/4" plywood atop the sleepers for a mostly flat floor. Lots of glue and screws to minimize squeaks.

I wouldn't call it a ton of work -- it certainly takes some time and patience with a level, but it's not extraordinarily difficult.

if it's sagging, does it mean eventually the floor will give in?

No. Things settle. Odds are the ceiling isn't level also. Our master bath incline was much greater than three inches, and because of various issues would have been a bitch to level. We installed a soaking tub, and the contractors built a frame that was decidedly uneven, but even painted a brick-ish color most wouldn't notice the slope.

If your foundation is cracking, etc., that's a different issue.

Tommy, I don't think you get it. Most threads around here get ignored until I drive by and raise the profile of the thread. You think AR would have commented if I didn't show up? Think again.

Settling floors and ceilings are what gave rise to the use of those "picture railings" ... moulding trim set about one foot down from the ceiling, from where often in Victorian houses you'll see pictures hanging from long wires.

The functionality of not putting holes in the wall was an added benefit to the perfectly-level trim diverting the eye away from the very crooked ceiling -- especially when the wall above the trim and the ceiling are painted the same color.

Prove it.

This phenomena is quite prevalent in older homes of the Sag Harbor area, with many owners desperately injecting botox shots directly into the floorboards, in a vain attempt to give them a straighter appearance.

Just we with faces, the results are not always pretty.

Just "as" with faces...

you people got my thinking. Several years ago, I had an engineer come by becuase i was concerned about noises I would hear in the house and he said that was not uncommon in older houses. i also recall that i have seen far worse sag in other houses.

anyway, I think I'm gonna rip up the tiles in the kitchen, the subfloor, the wood and open it up to see what is going on. the sag is most pronounced near the chimney area.

"Sagging happens with old age"

go get a silicon surgy

There are several reasons this can happen and "old floors sag" is not a legitimate answer. As I am sure you know, there are beams that run across the building and the floors are supported and stabilized by sitting on these beams. Often over time, these beams crack, or begin to sag themselves, or they get damage from moisture or water and literally rot away. If this is the case, then the floor itself could be a risk of collapsing or you could fall through a floorboard because it has no support. In those days, beams were also, often, insufficient to hold the weight of the floors. Workmen and carpenters would look at a board and say "that looks strong enough for a floor!" and that was that. The best way to see what is going on with a floor is to rip up the floor. If you don't want to do that, the next best way is to go up through the ceiling on the floor below. We did this in an old house we own and put sister beams on the old beams which stabilized the floor considerably and eliminated the sag. I would certainly not start tiling a floor that had a 3 inch sag because so much spread between high and low is likely indicative of bigger problems. Also, this suggests that there is play and movement in the floor and thus your tiles will likely crack and the grout will get messy over time. Finally if all the sag is on one side of the floor it might be that the whole building is leaning. Once in a house we owned we had to jack up one side of the house about 6 inches to even it out, then put in concrete footers and columns to hold it up. This can happen to the whole house, or to one floor alone. Good luck.

thanks guywithcat - very helpful. it is only the top floor that has material sag and it in the kitchen area where the wall meets chimney. right now, the kitchen floor has tiles that put there in 2000 when we bought the house. there are no cracks in the tiles or gaps indicating further movement but since i want to modernize the kitchen, it just kills me that part of floor (near chimey) dips so much that the refrigerator won't stay level so i lose about a foot of space

Can't you just put some napkins underneath one corner?

i guess i could try napkins but i figure why not try to fix and be done with it. i want to better understand the problem...plus i wish i could get rid of the noises. it's only in 1 apartment (2nd floor). Complete silence and then you hear a sound (cracking, creaking, whatever). i don't believe in ghosts, or should i start? They say Jesus has a ghost!

Well, if anything, it's a good incentive to keep one's weight at an acceptable level.

I know someone who actually lives in the basement of a multifamily dwelling, which he MUST do, as a normal floor cannot support him.

This elephantine individual was originally employed as a freight elevator counterweight, long since retired after he exceeded the weight limit for the job, resulting in the cab suddenly accelerating upward & left dangling dangerously from the highest floor.

Even he himself jokes about his specially engineered bed, the design of which is modeled from a suspension bridge.

He fondly refers to it as his very own "Verrazano Wides".

Gotta love it!

I wonder if all that creaking & noises is the building trying to warn you about an unsafe condition. It seems like a good idea to investigate. Let us know what you learn.

Hopefully we will - that is, if he doesn't "drop by" the unit below.

It ain't just deals that fall through...

So I was looking at the apartment last nite after the contractor had gutted the bathroom. It seems that previous owners had removed an interior wall on the floor below (on 1 side - the libving room) a long time ago when ad addition was added-on to the rear of the house. They did not remove the wall below on the bathroom side so there is no tilt.

I know it's hard to conceptualize. So i'm thinking that maybe I should add a column on the floor below (which would be FUGLY) or maybe just leave it for now since the tiles in the kitchen still look very nice despite the slope. People still walk into the apart and like the kitchen, I guess I just wnated more wow. We'll see.

>Settling floors and ceilings are what gave rise to the use of those "picture railings" ... moulding trim
>set about one foot down from the ceiling, from where often in Victorian houses you'll see pictures
>hanging from long wires.
>
>The functionality of not putting holes in the wall was an added benefit to the perfectly-level trim
>diverting the eye away from the very crooked ceiling -- especially when the wall above the trim and
>the ceiling are painted the same color.

Cute origin story, but not a true one. (Wind is not produced by moving trees, either.)

it ain't easy trying to be a good landlord

Please tread lightly & carefully - & while you're deciding what course of remediation to take, please get a Life Alert & wear it at all times

Hopefully, there'll be no occasion to use it, but if there is, make sure to yell loudly & clearly, "I've fallen through the floor - & can't get up!!!"

lol.

'lol' is a non-constructive comment

Good grief - for someone who's screen name evokes images of bucolic serenity, you sure as hell don't sound like it. Could you nitpick any more?

Sorry, but my image of you is that of Dame Judith Anderson as Memnet in "The Ten Commandments".

As you may recall, the girls by the riverbank referred to her as a "puckered old persimmon".

Flattering yes, I know.

Role model?

read up top

?????

Sorry, Greensy Babes - I see what you mean. Your persimmon is now officially de-puckered!

It sounds like you need a structural engineer to be sure that building won't collapse. They removed an interior wall (sounds like possibly load-bearing)& added on to the back & how carefully & knowledgably was this done? Based upon the moans & groans of the building, NOT TOO WELL. Allowing a possibly unsafe condition to persist, is not being a good landlord. I'd say you've got some sleuthing to do.

And hurry - we don't want you to go from tommy2tone to Daddy Do Drop (or The Man Who Fell to Earth.)

Being that this is the 4th & all, there's a much quicker & easier test: Stick an M80 (or a few - what the hell, right?!?) into one or more of the creaking crevasses, light & run.

You should have your answer immediately. Don't forget the demolition permit! (you know - just in case...)

Happy 4th Everybody!!!

greetings. we pulled up the tile in the kitchen and exposed the original floor and to our surprise, part of the floor is pulling away from the exterior wall..now, it is really beginning to make sense. we gonna get an engineer to look at but contractor says we will need to put up columns or sometype of load bearing wall on the floors below.

Are French doors are good way to camouflage this, or is do people put in interior buttresses. any other ideas so that when i speak to engineer and contractor, i am more informed

Do let us know what happens with this. I'm glad you found the problem before something catastrophic happened.

Hola amigos. Here's an update. I had four different builders as well as my handyman look at the situation. When handyman took up subfloor, it became clear that part of the floor was sitting on part of a perimeter wall) that was 2-3 inches higher than the other joists. one joist was sagging but that had already been sistered ~40-50 years ago.

so, we're gonna get back to putting floor back and then I think we may build a closet or bookshelf below just to be 200% certain that the weight is being properly carried - although builders say we don't need to.

With all that groaning & creaking & the obvious building defect, I'm frankly shocked that you're not talking to a structural engineer. I hope you know what you're doing.

as i mentioned before, i had had a structural engineer come who said he thought the house was sound.