Combining two coop units

you ned to bring in good contractor and get an estimate

has anyone in the building done a combination, ever?
do you think the board will allow this?

you are also mentioning a new kitchen, walls, etc. no one can give you an estimate until you provide a lot more info.

I seems to me you are looking at least $600k (studio sounds to be abt 475?) for this project on an already admitted odd layout apt. Then board hassles, architect, city filings, living in a reno, etc.

Id compare that with selling and moving...

I think the most important thing is to have a good plan with what to do with the space. Make sure the layout will makes sense. Some combinations work very well, and some are really forced. You need to do a little leg work first. Talk with your building super and find out what type of stuff has been done in your building before, and what type of stuff is off the table.

Can you...

Turn a previous kitchen into a bathroom
Repurpose a bedroom area into a living area
Expand wet over dry
Take down all walls
Easily relocate overhead light fixtures

I would first meet with the super to figure out what can be done, then meet with an architect to figure out what they suggest, and then meet with a contractor to find out how much it will cost. I think meeting with the contractor first might be a mistake since they can tell you how much it will cost, but not really what you can or should do.

One thing to consider is what the ultimate maintenance would be, given that this is a co-operative building.

Sometimes combined apartments end up with maintenance totals that exceed what the same square footage would cost elsewhere in the building (comp floor etc) or elsewhere in the neighborhood.

This happens I think because studios often get hit a little harder on maintenance square-foot-wise, for obvious reasons and some not so obvious.

It might not matter much in your market, but you asked about the financial investment aspect....higher maintenance means lower sales price when all else is equal (which of course it never is).

I agree with what kharby2 says. Many times when you combine units in a coop the maintenance comes out to be way higher than in a similar sized apartment. Probably best just to look for a new place that already has the square footage you want.

Wow. Thanks for all the quick responses. In response to some of the issues stated:

1) I think the maintenance consideration is a good one. It is a little high at about half our current maintenance for about a third of the space. Maybe the uncovered wall space would help recoup a small bit of that poor ratio? The size of the studio may also be a little smaller than I think.

2) We definitely should speak to an architect and I appreciate the suggestion to do that after the super but before the contractor. There are definitely restrictions relating to moving wet areas over dry and I think we would need to expand the kitchen if the one in the studio were to be used. As for the other issues (lighting, repurposing rooms, etc.) I am not completely sure and will explore.

3) Combining apartments has definitely been done in the building and I was given the indication that the board generally does not have a problem with it. We are hoping that the process would be a little easier having been previously approved for our current apartment, which would give us a leg up in the bidding/transaction.

Does anyone have any sense about the city permitting process? How time consuming and expensive is that?

Also, the plan of the apartments might be helpful to share: http://postimg.org/image/ogw4xwzdh/

This is pretty close to what we would be combining. There are some minor differences like the kitchen in the 2BR is a little more expanded into the living with a large counter and the studio is not on a corner, but otherwise should be the same.

Any suggestions from a design/spacing perspective?

Novice buyer,

This could be a huge opportunity.

I am excited for you. I want to give you last quarters numbers for the average apt in 10023 zip code.
Studios $947 SPF
2bedroom $1,555 psf
3bedroom $2,000 psf

You can do the numbers, this is defitnitely work exploring. Will there be extra work and risk, does it look like a good bet......absolutely. Especially if you can tack on a room to the living area that could be an extra bedroom at resale time, plus an extra bathroom and laundry closet.

Good luck.

If making money and getting a good deal is important to you, please keep exploring this idea.....

Does anyone have any sense about the city permitting process? How time consuming and expensive is that?

In short it is time consuming and expensive.

A good case scenario is 2 months for approvals and permitting from the time you submit to your plans to the co-op until you actually start work. It could be faster, but it could take much much longer if either the co-op or city has problems with your plan. The next question is usually...well can I submit plans before I close on the apartment? Theoretically yes, but practically no.

Permits themselves are not that expensive (a few hundred dollars), but you need to budget about 5K for the process. Your co-op will get you for 500-2000 (most buildings charge more for a combination application), and you likely will pay an expediter (1500-2500). Some architects include the permit and expediter fees into their quote. It is really really hard to estimate these costs since there are so many ways to go. You "could" get a really cheap architect to draw up very simple plans and get permits for 5K total, but more realistically the architect will be in the 20-25K range.

It really comes down to what you want to do. Is this going to turn into a gut job redisign of your apartment? Or are you taking down a wall, patching up the floor, taking out a kitchen, and moving on?

if possible, buy the studio for cash and keep two c of o's--valuable flexibility/optionality

if you can do it, much simpler on all fronts, too

I concur with what UES10021 said.

Another thing you'll want to look at is what level of amenities/finish your eventual buyer will want for an apartment the size of your combined apartment.

I agree with gabrielle that 1 1 = 3 with most renovations nowadays (if you put $600K in , you may well create an additional $250K of value out of thin air) but the question then becomes, what do you need to put in to make it =4?

For example, if you're creating a fairly nice 3-BR, at that point the majority of buyers may expect central air conditioning, which is probably around $200K to put in -- and not all buildings will allow it.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Combos don't require a new CofO for the building anymore. That went away in the late 1990s.

Your simplest route would be to just break through at the closet end. The 14'x17' studio would become the new master bedroom.

Its kitchen would become a big walk-in closet with maybe a shaving sink. (Bath can't expand into the kitchen space because of the the big exhaust shaft to left of kitchen door.)

That'd leave you with the problem in your current apartment of the previous owner having expanded the kitchen too far into the dining ell. The two walls of cabinetwork and the useless peninsula leave too little space for family dining, and the living area isn't deep enough to put a table at the hall end or the window end.

Fixing that would really kick up the cost. Depending on whether there's plumbing in that common wall (plans show just refrigerator against it, so probably not) you could reduce the new studio bedroom to may 10' or 12' wide instead of 14', and use that extra 2'-4' to make kitchen squarer and the dining ell big enough to eat in. I'd leave it alone, though. It's the big extra BR/bath that'll eventually get you the bucks at resale, and 20' of demolition and rewiring would really add up. Instead, put the money into reconfiguring the kitchen and dining ell to work better, and look bigger.

Again, many thanks and all comments have been extremely helpful. I am very impressed by the knowledge here and the willingness to share.

The permitting process is a little daunting, but one I think we would be willing to undertake. This would definitely not be a gut renovation of the current apartment. I love the enthusiasm for the possibility of getting $2000/sq ft, but I really do not think this is that type of apartment, either in eventual size or in finish as front_porch describes. I would love central A/C but cannot see that being a possibility (or similar pricey investments). That lends itself to the question of whether having a 3BR might be harder to move at this lower amenity level. There may be one similarly combined unit in the building.

While the financial aspect is an important consideration, this is not likely an apartment we will be selling anytime soon and the purpose is more to improve and increase the space at the lowest cost. I love the simplicity of just making the studio a new master and a larger master is very enticing; still, we are pretty content with our current bedrooms and the hope was to use it to expand the current general living space and maybe gain a comfortable study/guest room (I guess the latter might not even be possible?).

NWT, how would you suggest configuring the kitchen and ding ell to work better in the current space? It seems like I should contact an architect pronto before going too much further with this.

Id talk to the super and see if you can demo the wall that forces your kitchen to be a gallley. Hopefully its not structural. Making that a island instead ofwall would completely open the main lr/dining and could be an impressive thing to see first thing walking in the door (forself or prospective buyer).

The wall between kitchen and LR has plumbing, so has to stay.

Maybe remove the 12' wall between dining ell and studio, and remove the wall between studio and studio kitchen. That'd give you a 14'x20-something space for dining/study/guest area. You'd still have counters running however far into the dining ell, but that'd be OK.

Right now the kitchen and dining ell seem to have too much junk-catching counter area, what with the peninsula sticking into the ell, and counters on the far and window walls of the ell.

Apologies for the hijack, but NWT, re: CofO's and combos do you happen to know if the building requires a new CofO when the corporation sells common space/a few more shares (e.g., a sliver of hallway) to a shareholder for combination into an existing apartment? Thank you

No, not for that either.

NWT - thank you

NoviceBuyer, here're rough before-and-after plans: http://postimg.org/image/txfronx6l/ and http://postimg.org/image/rhdyatf3x/

There'd be lots of flexibility for a combo, even though the plumbing wall and column in the kitchen area mean it has to stay in the middle of what's really one huge room. Losing the studio kitchen gives you lots of room for guest/study/dining, maybe with sliding screens. Or you could make that the LR and use your current LR as DR. Later on you could restore the studio or make it a bedroom.

You could also do a lot with all those closets and hall between kitchen and front doors. Maybe an office or something.

NWT and all, thank you for the help. This is a great start to begin exploring all possibilities. We will have to see how things go with the price of the studio as we do find it too much currently.