Hey all, I'm doing a gut reno of a Harlem co-op, and I hired a well-reputed electrical firm to do the re-wiring. Two issues have come up recently that are making my blood boil, and I thought people here might have some advice. Basically, I signed their quite form to start the work, but we never signed the DCA model contract before starting. A change order came in a few weeks ago, about a month... [more]
Hey all,
I'm doing a gut reno of a Harlem co-op, and I hired a well-reputed electrical firm to do the re-wiring. Two issues have come up recently that are making my blood boil, and I thought people here might have some advice.
Basically, I signed their quite form to start the work, but we never signed the DCA model contract before starting. A change order came in a few weeks ago, about a month after the work was done, for about 2 hours of work and small material outlay for $1350 (to splice 4 risers together, which was discussed in the first walk through of the apartment after the contract had been signed, during the demolition phase).
My GC put a screw through the new 100A riser, causing it to short out. The electricians simply pulled the cable up 10 feet from the basement, and re-inserted it into the breaker box. I was there, and it took no more than 45 minutes. For this, I just got a $540 bill today!
First of all, what is the legality of these orders, considering that the work was done BEFORE the invoice came though? Secondly, they are completely out of line for a total project cost of $16240 to rewire the whole apartment and upgrade the main service.
Also, who is liable for the second bill? My GC, who caused the damage, or am I?
In any case, any advice on how to proceed?
Thanks!
[less]
Response by land2sand
over 12 years ago
Posts: 17
Member since: Jun 2013
The $540 bill should be paid by your GC. If he doesn't want to pay upfront try getting him to add in a job that was taken of the scope because it was over budget. Something comparable to the $540.
The electric company seems like a gold digger. Unfortunately, if you knew $16,240 was going to be the cost upfront, then you're stuck with that and there's no going back. I'd consider firing the electrician unless they are already done with the job.
AT THE LEAST, you should have a come to Jesus moment and go up one side of the GC and down the other side of the owner of the electrical company because that's bullshit. You need to argue and fight on the phone, face to face, and push their incompetency down by GCing the GC sorrda speak. I would not pay a penny more than what you have agreed upon. They know they are fleecing you, use that against them and demand they earn it.
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Response by CAPITALcraft
over 12 years ago
Posts: 98
Member since: Mar 2010
Did you hire a GC and an electrician? Unforeseen conditions are normally excluded from contracts and therefore the change order seems warranted. Whether the price is fair, is a matter of opinion. Agree with land2sand if the electrical contract is $16,240 signed by both parties, that is the price. The $540 should come direct from GC to you if he is admitting the mistake. Good luck.
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Response by Primer05
over 12 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
Avaris,
The right thing would be for the contractor to pay for his mistake. If you did not get a change order (written or agreed upon) it should always be written but... then you should not have to pay for it.
As far as the 16k thats not too bad to rewire the whole apartment
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Response by avaris
over 12 years ago
Posts: 20
Member since: May 2011
Hi Primer,
The electricians SOP is to do the work, and then send an exorbitant change order after the fact. I went with them, despite it being a significantly higher bid than another reputable firm, because they seemed more professional...
$16240 is the total cost to re-do the apartment. There was a $1340 change order to splice 4 risers over 2 feet, which took two hours of work in total + the splice box, which again, is exorbitant (nearly 10% of the total cost of the whole job!) I'm willing to pay a portion of that since it wasn't in the initial contract, but this second change order just shows that they gouge customers as standard practice.
Can they place mechanic's liens on the property based on unpaid change orders that arrived post factum, with no warning or discussion before hand, either written or oral?
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Response by Primer05
over 12 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
I think any contractor or sub can put a Lien on a property if they worked at the residence. I do not believe an electrician would put a Lien on your property if you don't pay for a change order that was not approved. You too have recourse that would be not be good for the electrician. I would talk to them about the fact that it took two hours and you did not approve it and see what happens.
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Response by uptown_joe
over 12 years ago
Posts: 293
Member since: Dec 2011
So negotiate the splice job price down to something reasonable, and tell the electrician and the GC they are responsible for resolving the $540 item. The GC can pay that, negotiate it down, tell the electrician they'll get hired on another job if they forget about it, or whatever -- you don't care, they sort it out.
Document your objections in writing, and document the resolution if it's sorted out verbally.
Primer is correct you will not likely see a lien over <$2000 of change orders that seem to be just gravy if paid, and no major loss if not.
Spend less energy on hyperventilating and more on saying no and getting it resolved.
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Response by avaris
about 12 years ago
Posts: 20
Member since: May 2011
Hi guys,
So I got a long email with detailed "billing info" from the office today, and let's just say that the numbers are wildly exaggerated, and they aren't budging an inch on lowering these prices.
Primer, what were my own "recourses" to which I have access? Can I fire them? Contact DCA? What's the strategy for dealing with firms that lie about the work they do, even when I was literally at the apartment while they did it, timing them carefully.
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Response by flarf
about 12 years ago
Posts: 515
Member since: Jan 2011
You're timing the workers on how long it takes them to do things? No wonder they're sticking it to you.
Consider the $1350 a lesson in how to work with your contractors next time. Don't breathe down their necks and agree on prices before work is started.
The $540 bill should be paid by your GC. If he doesn't want to pay upfront try getting him to add in a job that was taken of the scope because it was over budget. Something comparable to the $540.
The electric company seems like a gold digger. Unfortunately, if you knew $16,240 was going to be the cost upfront, then you're stuck with that and there's no going back. I'd consider firing the electrician unless they are already done with the job.
AT THE LEAST, you should have a come to Jesus moment and go up one side of the GC and down the other side of the owner of the electrical company because that's bullshit. You need to argue and fight on the phone, face to face, and push their incompetency down by GCing the GC sorrda speak. I would not pay a penny more than what you have agreed upon. They know they are fleecing you, use that against them and demand they earn it.
Did you hire a GC and an electrician? Unforeseen conditions are normally excluded from contracts and therefore the change order seems warranted. Whether the price is fair, is a matter of opinion. Agree with land2sand if the electrical contract is $16,240 signed by both parties, that is the price. The $540 should come direct from GC to you if he is admitting the mistake. Good luck.
Avaris,
The right thing would be for the contractor to pay for his mistake. If you did not get a change order (written or agreed upon) it should always be written but... then you should not have to pay for it.
As far as the 16k thats not too bad to rewire the whole apartment
Hi Primer,
The electricians SOP is to do the work, and then send an exorbitant change order after the fact. I went with them, despite it being a significantly higher bid than another reputable firm, because they seemed more professional...
$16240 is the total cost to re-do the apartment. There was a $1340 change order to splice 4 risers over 2 feet, which took two hours of work in total + the splice box, which again, is exorbitant (nearly 10% of the total cost of the whole job!) I'm willing to pay a portion of that since it wasn't in the initial contract, but this second change order just shows that they gouge customers as standard practice.
Can they place mechanic's liens on the property based on unpaid change orders that arrived post factum, with no warning or discussion before hand, either written or oral?
I think any contractor or sub can put a Lien on a property if they worked at the residence. I do not believe an electrician would put a Lien on your property if you don't pay for a change order that was not approved. You too have recourse that would be not be good for the electrician. I would talk to them about the fact that it took two hours and you did not approve it and see what happens.
So negotiate the splice job price down to something reasonable, and tell the electrician and the GC they are responsible for resolving the $540 item. The GC can pay that, negotiate it down, tell the electrician they'll get hired on another job if they forget about it, or whatever -- you don't care, they sort it out.
Document your objections in writing, and document the resolution if it's sorted out verbally.
Primer is correct you will not likely see a lien over <$2000 of change orders that seem to be just gravy if paid, and no major loss if not.
Spend less energy on hyperventilating and more on saying no and getting it resolved.
Hi guys,
So I got a long email with detailed "billing info" from the office today, and let's just say that the numbers are wildly exaggerated, and they aren't budging an inch on lowering these prices.
Primer, what were my own "recourses" to which I have access? Can I fire them? Contact DCA? What's the strategy for dealing with firms that lie about the work they do, even when I was literally at the apartment while they did it, timing them carefully.
You're timing the workers on how long it takes them to do things? No wonder they're sticking it to you.
Consider the $1350 a lesson in how to work with your contractors next time. Don't breathe down their necks and agree on prices before work is started.
Give me a call tomorrow
646-436-3942
Jeff