building at 111 Central Park North

I passed by this area and development today.

Area seemed very poor and lacked any type of amenity. There are also dozens of projects to the east.

It's a nice building, but extremely out of place and surrounded by properties that are, comparatively, depressed in appearance.

At best, I think the owners here won't see a return for the next 20 yrs - which is sad, since Central Park frontage here really should've turned prime.

But if it couldn't in the biggest RE boom in history, will it ever?

mercuricoxide,

i'm not sure i agree with your assessment. the central park views from 111 are probably the best in the city. it certainly isn't the building for everyone but i don't think it is a building for no one either. that is, i think enough people should be willing to do something a little unusual in exchange for those views that the building will do ok. will the owners get a good return on their investments? of course not. but that's not a function of the building; it's a function of the real estate bubble.

merc: It just takes a LLOOOOONNNGGG time for these things to happen. UES is a perfect example. I lived 89 and 3rd in 1988-89...kinda dicey north of there. Now ok up to 96th. This bubble period forced people to reach to fring neighborhoods. Pricing will take a long time to catch-up. Seems like the areas people reached (price-wise) for are the first taking a bath. Manhattan Valley, Yorkville.

happyrenter,

My qualms with the building come mostly from the area. The views, without a doubt, are stunning (the best in Harlem, surely not the best in all the city).

My assessment, of course, comes with respect to the high prices these units sold at. The prices were reflective of an imminent gentrification of the neighborhood (although, I would say that $1500 psqft is "there" pricing) - which, with the end of the bubble, has been pushed back beyond a reasonable time range.

patient,

I agree that it take plenty of time for these changes. I just feel sorry for people who paid $1500 psqft who were, undoubtedly, expecting change on the horizon.

*takes

you don't think those views of the park are the best views of the park? i wonder if you've been in the building. the view of the park from the north is by far the best vantage point, with the midtown skyline in the background. it really makes the views from the east west and south look mediocre in comparison. is it the best view of any kind in the city? that i can't say. but it is the best central park view.

I agree that it is the best view of central park. However, it cannot match the view from the top of the Time Warner Center, which has 360 degree views - so I should have said, views beyond just the park.

Alas, the top of the Time Warner Center is only obtainable by a select few, so I guess 111 wins - in that you don't have to be a billionaire to afford it.

Having looked at units for fun, my thoughts on the building/area are as follows:

1) I agree that the views of the park are the best in the city, simply because you get the park plus midtown skyline. However, I believe a lot of the unsold inventory is lower floor units ... these don't get the views. You need to be a few stories above the treeline. Without the views, a lot of the value is lost, except of course that you are across from the park.

2) I don't think the units themselves are that great/well designed. They seemed kind of cramped to me - I would want space AND views for going up there. Second - and this is really personal taste- I am not a fan of glassy buildings ... I think they will look terrible in 5-10 years.

3) I actually think Central Harlem from 110th-116th is worse than 116th-125th. "Brownstone Harlem" (not counting West Harlem's brownstone neighborhoods) is really in these higher blocks, as is most of the condo development. That strip of projects on 112th-115th is not going to go away. That said, they end on Lenox. However, there are some new restaurants/amenities opening up in the area - 67 Orange, the new Ottamanelli restaurant, etc. We'll see how they do going forward ..

4) Location wise, although not great for restaurants, the area is convenient to UES/UWS schools (many of which are in high 90s near park), restaurants, Central Park,etc.. Subway access is good as well - B/C, 2/3, etc.

5) I do think the area will "get there" eventually - but it will take a long time. I think the argument "if it didn't get there during this boom, it never will" holds little water if you know just how bad it was only 10 years ago. The progress has been remarkable, but the reason it's not as far as, say, the LES, is because it was even worse 10-15 years ago.

All in all, I think those who bought in 2007 will do badly in the near to medium term, especially if they bought expecting the areas to turn overnight. But if somebody bought early on/in a pre-sale ... they may do okay if they are happy with their choice of neighborhood and don't mind the tradeoffs.

On the

You're still paying 10x more for properties along Central Park to the South/West/East. It seems to me that values will increase over time since comparatively speaking they cost so much less than other properties fronting Central Park. Transportation options abound, $7 Billion Columbia expansion is still a go, apparently there are even some good charter schools popping up, restaurants and retail continue to improve, viaduct valley/restaurant row is thriving and the new piers look great, 125th street rezoning is complete and will be helpful when the economy rebounds, there is even a luxury car dealership on 129th street and Lenox Ave that sells lambos, ferraris, bentleys, etc.

Time will benefit Harlem.

Time will benefit Harlem --- indeed
A long time.
I am still interested in purchasing a Brownstone in Harlem, but dg156 is too positive relative to what is likely to happen here.
Columbia's endowment is down about 35% and Manhattanville may actually slow boat. A stupendous number of market rate new developments in the area are waiting to come on. Some like 2280 FDB and 235 W 113rd have laughable asking prices at this point.
So in the short run, I agree with kspeak -- Harlem is in for a downturn that should be quite severe.
However, so far, they are not reducing prices (except in a few cases) at the rate that UWS in the upper 90s is undergoing.
111CPN 3rd floor at 1.5 million and 2500+ maintenance?
I could bite at 1 million or 1.5 million for a high floor.
Amenities in that area are weak as kspeak notes and the 116-125 area is nicer -- similar to 106 to 116 being nicer on Broadway relative to 96 to 106

What joedavis said. And I live in Harlem below 125th and see it every day...

"Amenities in that area are weak as kspeak notes and the 116-125 area is nicer -- similar to 106 to 116 being nicer on Broadway relative to 96 to 106"

this is 100% true.

Also, the penthouse, which sold, then the buyer walked away from the deposit before closing, then sold again SUPPOSEDLY....is now for rent for 23k a month. Who in there right mind would rent in harlem ANYWHERE is they could afford 23k a month? There are plenty of things on CPE, CPW< or CPS for LESS in the same size-range or bigger.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/461014-rental-111-central-park-north-central-harlem-new-york

agree
I think I may consider buying one of their units around $1 million but not more -- the maintenance is pretty high too

Despite it's proximity to the park, 111 is not in a good neighborhood. Much better up around 116th and above. The units are vastly overpriced and hopefully the owners do not have to sell for a very long time.

110th has some big drawbacks when it comes to future potential, there's a correctional facility for wild teenagers, tons of projects within a block and the 2 huge eyesores at each corner of central park. how on earth that 2 ugly buildings got approved by the city, i have no clue. they should pay extra property taxes for visual contamination.

In addition to the points you've all made, another big downside to 111 CPN is the streetlevel retail space that I can't imagine anyone leasing anytime soon. This strikes me as a case where the developers were utterly insensitive to every other concern except sale price per unit. They obviously failed to notice that this is an area which has no other foot traffic, and that will never become as "destination" that warranted all that square footage of commercial space.

Subway bought half. A sandwhich shop is not Gucci, but hey it pays the rent.

rented half

111 CPW is dead. even a top floor for 1 mil is overpriced. sellers have no clue how seismic the shift in prices is happening right now. that triangle piece right next to the bldg, the blgd on lenox and 111th street was slated to be developed and all plans have been shelved. so hold on as the inventory accumulates!!!!

Its over 70% sold, so its not "dead" by any means. The remaining units will sell for MUCH less than what they are currently asking, but how can it be "dead" if its mostly sold, closed, and occupied already?

Is it occupied already? Every time I pass it on the bus, staring wistfully, it looks empty. And teens hang out and sit on planters or something that's in front of the building. I assumed the building wasn't open yet--and the lights and furniture in one window were the show model.

Even at $1m, it's too expensive for me. But if I ever bought a lottery ticket and won...I wouldn't care that there aren't any amenities. The 2/3 is right on the corner--and you've got all the buses along 110 St. I think it's a great location.

111 Central Park North in Central Harlem
I think this building is all but sold. their might be a couple of apartments left. For starters if you are above the tree line the views from these apartments are amazing. Their is very little to compare to the view from a high floor facing south over the park with the city splayed out before you. How can I put this...it's 'f-in AMAZING!!!'. To boot, some of the floor plans are open and airy and spacious. I looked hard at this property. A chance to live my life in a fat apartment with that view is a small price to pay living at the (best) edge of central Harlem. Frightened out of towners and KluKluxKlan members need not apply. The only catch here is the pricing. This building commanded big $$$ for these spaces and that's the part that impressed me. At those prices Harlem will not count me as resident but, those $$$ occured at the top of the market. This is a building worth watching. In the short term the value will suffer. If you could get into this building via a distress sale and a low price this place will eventually be worth it as an investment and be worth it right away as a primary residence. Even Harlem haters would be lucky to live here.

This building got LUCKY in that it mostly sold before the bubble burst. Yes, I rode by it on my bike yesterday and its clearly occupied. But the remaining units for sale and rent have been vacant and available for two years, despite cutting there prices 25-30%. This building is simply overpriced for any part of Harlem, park views and all. Indeed, you can get similar new buildings below 96th for the same or less per SF...and if someone wants views and to live outside of "prime Manhattan", I think they would likely take a new bldg with a view in Manhattan Valley/Bloomingdale, BPC, or western Chelsea for the same price...and there are plenty of those available. No, this place has just got to come down to sell the remaining 5 or so units. B

All of you are correct on your assessments of 111 CPN. It's way overpriced and the prices now, look absolutely ridiculous given the financial situation in the city. Also, despite its enviable park location, there are no services and, to be honest, quite a bit of panhandling and other undesirable activity in that vicinity. You'd be better off further uptown in Harlem in terms of services and other elements.

Is it correct that the common charges have gone up considerably as well. They look very high.

Snossel common charges look very high. And by the time central harlem turns nice, the tax abatement will be over.

A 1,900 sf in this building just sold for $1.3M, down from well over $2M. How does that compare to the Corcoran listing on W. 112th Street that is asking $1.3M for a much smaller, no amenities, apartment? To do the math, the Corcoran listing should be around $700 to $800K.