The Edge

exactly..it ruins this board when people post facts from out of their head....

how does that NYT article count as proof? is the developer saying they are 20% sold any better than a broker saying that? what is bothering in that article is how he says that Phase 2 is a couple years in the offing. I believe one of the piers is contingent on phase 2.

point taken, although the developer saying 20%+ in July 2009 lends significantly more credibility than someone claiming that a person said 30% in early 2008. There is no he said/she said. Concerning the pier associated with phase 2, my understanding is that the pier for the water taxi is the one contingent on phase 2 being completed.

I went to the sales office in mid 2009, and they were then saying 20% to 25%. Now, they are saying about 30%, so it seems about 150 units are in contract now. Some of the claims that nyc2009 has presented as facts here (the idea that 30% would refer to "what they have made available for sale" --aren't all units available for sale, anyway?-- or that none of the brokers from the Developers Group or their "friends" have purchased at the project) have been dismissed by other posters. So, it seems questionable to me how much attention one should pay to all these seemingly obvious "facts" that nyc2009 throws out here. I understand the frustration from his or her experience at Warehouse 11, but it doesn't mean that things are going to be exactly the same at the Edge. The developer, Douglaston, has been around for a while after all.

The new developments in Williamsburg are not popular with everybody, but let's keep the discussion factual.

Concerning the water taxi pier, I have been told that they will build it during phase 1 even though it was originally only planned for phase 2.

You guys keep missing my point. One of the biggest tricks developers and brokers use is talking in percentages rather than numbers. I am telling you for the last time the percentage they are talking about is from what is available for sale. All of the apartments are not available for sale. All developments hold back a certain number. Do any of you numb nuts have a list of apartments in contract there? The answer is no. there is no way that this place has 150 apartments in contract. Please don't be a bunch of dumbasses.

nyc2009, sorry, but you're still source-less it seems, so spouting off insults isn't really going to help your case. You make an awful lot of assumptions, and when you assume, you make an ass out of yourself.

bjw2103 - when you point one finger at someone else you are point three back at yourself. I will have the last laugh. It will just take some time.

last laugh at what? if it does turn out to be the case as you say it, is it funny that people who have entered into contracts may be put into financial difficulty? Is that what's funny to you?

No, last laugh at the people here that do not listen to someone that has been through this before. Anyone that has taken a first time buyers class or has a real attorney would not go within a hundred miles of this building.

nyc2009...what about 80 met ?

"No, last laugh at the people here that do not listen to someone that has been through this before. Anyone that has taken a first time buyers class or has a real attorney would not go within a hundred miles of this building."

Do you live in this city? You know it's not 100 miles wide, right?

80 met is in better shape because they do not have near as many apartments to sell.
Lets just say that anyone that buys in the Edge or NSP will get what they deserve. Good or bad. Time will tell.
Just look at banks or any business that is in big trouble. They keep preaching how good things are and how they have plenty of money until they can get what they can and get out. That is what is happening here. Have you seen the news in the last 2 years or do you work at AIG?

The Edge is no different than One Brooklyn Bridge. How did that project work out bjw2103?

nyc2009 you make a little sense but not alot. thanks for the input though

80 met probably is in better shape than edge--they appear to be around 30% sold as opposed to the debatable 30% in contract and are showing some flexibility in pricing esp for larger apts-- with a couple of recent closings in the mid 600 range-- which in my opinion is a better value than same price for some of the new Berry bldgs. NSP seems to be doing alright, i think they have shown that they will do what it takes to get units sold. quality is a different issue on which i cant comment

Even if the Edge has sold 150 apartments it will take them almost 8-10 years to sell the rest at the rate of 3 to 4 a month that they say they are doing.

nyc2009, I'm not sure what your point is. That 1BBP is an abject failure? It's not; yes, there are still many apartments available, but to date, nothing cataclysmic has happened. The more you post, the more you come off as a bitter cynic; listen, I honestly feel for the pain you went through with W11, but your response and consequent bashing of other, unrelated projects, is not really helpful. I did appreciate your posting the detail from the AG regarding pricing adjustments, but not incidentally, that was the only post where you had any source or facts. This thread could use more of that.

ok, nothing but facts from now on. Fact - If a building is over 50% rental it is impossible for a potential buyer to get a mortgage loan. What does that do to the people that have purchased into the project that need to sell?
Question - do you think the Developers Group will let hundreds of apartments sit empty for years and not rent them?

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/resenting-the-renters

why do so many of these discussions turn into pissing matches?....an exchange of data that will be helpful to make informed decisions is what we should all strive for...right? I commend nyc for at least attempting to provide data (the word "fact" is a little loaded). It is also understandable that nyc is a little gun shy after the fuck show that was w11 the first time around. He has set himself apart from the worthless posters who spew complete misinformation(we all know who they are).

Moxie ..I know you're reasonable but you're too charitable to 2009 who is repeating unsubstantiated charges that make no sense (and for the record,given the amount of nonsense spouted by 2009, i don't take anything she/he says seriously, unless i hear from the ag myself).

.The Edge office couldn't be clearer that they are talking about percentage of ALL units. Period. Maybe they are lying. Personally, having talked to them extensively, I doubt it. Maybe contracts will fall away. But 2009 writes "I am telling you for the last time the percentage they are talking about is from what is available for sale" which is categorically untrue; that is not what they claim if you talk to them.

I'm not trying to get in a pissing match, rather calling someone out who keeps repeating unsubstianted info, which is a tedious distraction.

nyc2009 doesn't even claim to know the number of units sold; he or she states as an obvious fact that the brokers are giving false (or misleading) information because that's what brokers do. I guess it's good to be careful when assessing information, but at some point careful becomes paranoid...

And besides, they can finance through FHA and their direct lender, and they are working on getting Fannie approved.

This New York Times articles summarizes some of the things to look out for when buying a new construction (it addresses several of nyc2009's concerns ):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/realestate/31cov.html?hpw

It doesn't mention the Edge directly, but it points out the importance of a tried and tested developer like Douglaston.

Some quotes from the article:

- AS the residential real estate market in New York City continues to emerge from its deep freeze, sales at new condominium developments are starting to pick up.

- The median price paid for a Manhattan apartment in a new development fell to $1.19 million at the end of 2009, from $1.54 million at the end of 2008, a difference of 23 percent, according to Corcoran Sunshine, a brokerage that sells only new developments. There was also a drop in Brooklyn, but it was smaller, down to $585,000 from $630,000, a difference of only 7 percent.

- “So sponsors are willing to offer better deals and concessions to those first buyers. Whereas, someone who’s waiting until the building is almost sold out, is going to pay full market price.”

- Another grim possibility is that the sponsor could default, which might send the building into the arms of a bank and then off to some unknown entity.

"an exchange of data that will be helpful to make informed decisions is what we should all strive for...right?"
this should have been my emphasized point. if nyc does not meet this criteria than he/she belongs in the scrap pile of worthless posters. i take jim at his word that this is the case.i find "unsubstantiated info" to be not only a "tedious distraction" but abhorrent. it is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater(with no fire).

As I was saying a few weeks ago all of their apartments are off the market and the bankruptcy has started.

nyc2009, can you elaborate?

they have hundreds of apartments that they are not going to be able to sell. At the rate they are selling now it would take 10 years. they can not afford to have hundreds of apartments sit empty for years. their only choice is bankruptcy. they are working it out with their lender now.

Do you have confirmation of this bankruptcy?

Why do you think the apartments will stay empty? They will reduce prices and sell them for lower prices if facing pressure from their lenders, instead of going to bankruptcy.

"the bankruptcy has started" lmao.

Any other entertaining news for us? An earthquake just destroyed all of the Williamsburg waterfront, maybe?

Look at how many buildings in New York have gone bankrupt in the last year. The construction note on this building and property has to be at least 400 million. They have not even sold enough apartments to pay the interest on the loan. Use your head and do the math. The Edge does not have a chance in hell of making it. They will go the way of all the other buildings before them. The building will get finished and I am sure it will be a nice rental.

400 million?!? FOUR HUNDRED MILLION?!? Now I can begin to understand why folks here get upset at the blatant lies that are strewn about, and why everyone on these boards sees and calls you an idiot, nyc. How did you even COME UP with that outrageous number? Are you retarded? Tell you what, I'll humor you like my first-years and hold their pinkies while I punch the numbers into Excel and walk them through a simple sanity check. At $400mm, with 575 units, that's JUST UNDER an average 700K per unit, build-able. That's before commissions, and land cost. And most importantly, BEFORE PROFIT. Just to get to the 700k min, a 500 sq-ft studio has to go for 1391.30 per sq-ft! The most expensive 3bd that's on here would have to go for $2.76mm minimum, versus the $2.47mm that's listed as the ask. So you're saying the bank & developer are just going to leave 300k on the table to TAKE A LOSS?

Another example, in the 4Q09, HSBC's headquarters at 452 Fifth Avenue, a class A+ office building in Manhattan traded at $330mm (granted it has a leasing issue). But by your logic, a condo development in Brooklyn is worth more than a trophy asset in the city?

400 million... I have a bridge to sell you... for you to jump off of.

Btw, the building's owned free & clear.

Oh, and that $400m example above is assuming 100% LTV, which is giving it a conservative price, by capping it that number for the fiscally-challenged nyc2009. 0% equity would've been extremely aggressive, even during boom times. Hell, even Stuy Town had a total of 18.5% equity.

nyc2009, I don't understand exactly what you're saying. "All the other buildings" implies that every building in Williamsburg is bankrupt. That's simply not the case. Also, I agree w/ momo, there is no way that the note is for $400mm. Even if the developers over paid by a substantial amount, there is no way they paid $400mm. Finally, you say they are "working it out with their lender" now as if you are privy to some conversations. If you have any specific details, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks.

mommy77 and minocaca- regardless of what the note is on the building they have 400 unsold apartments according to Crains Business Magazine last week. You have to be a fool to buy in this building. Renting is probably OK.

Does anybody have news on closing dates? Last I heard (about 2 months ago) it was April.

they're hoping to get the tco for the south tower in april. so if that happens, closings will probably take place in may.

To those interested in The Edge or who are already in contract, what do you think of the price reductions at NSP1?

Did something happen recently? Or are you talking about at the beginning of the year? I think it has to happen to all these developments - that is where the real estate market in wburg is now and with all the inventory in the neighborhood, lower prices are where apts should sell. The previous listings last year were too expensive anyway and not reflective of market prices...

Just saw this - this is what ingenieur is talking about:

Apt SF View List Price New Price
SPECIAL LIMITED TIME PRICE*

6D 2/2 1131 Southwest $789,990 $694,990

7D 2/2 1131 Southwest $794,990 $700,990

7E 2/2 1152 Southeast $771,990 $642,990

8E 2/2 1152 Southeast $776,990 $648,990

4G 3/2 1244 Northeast $859,990 $714,990

7G 3/2 1244 Northeast $874,990 $745,990

19C 1/1 737 West $599,990 $543,990

24C 1/1 737 West $624,990 $564,990

25C 1/1 737 West $629,990 $569,990

PH9 2/2.5 1250 Northwest $949,990 $828,990

PH10 2/2.5 - 212 sf Balcony 1271 Northeast $1,064,990 $969,990

PH15 2/2.5 - 314 sf Balcony 1271 Northeast $1,084,990 $974,990

yes, exactly

I bet they will lower prices, but probably not til bldg is done and they are ready to close the units (it seems this is the model that nv, 80 met and N10th are following). The question is what will they do with those of you that signed contracts at higher prices.

to the ones who are in contract - does it bother you that all the kitchens don't have range hoods? What do you plan to do? Is it easy to add one?

wow I never noticed that are you positive? FYI im going into contract this week.

Yes I'm very certain. I cook, so I paid attention to it. I can tolerate the ugly sharp microwave, but I don't know what to do with the range hood. It's not a thin piece but rather a bulky unit. It needs to be fitted with the cabinet. I really don't know what to do. Not a small job.

Hi J1972, did you get any discount? If so, what percentage?

I am currently in the process of bidding on an apt. The Edge is not really willing to negotiate. They are confident that the economy is on its way to support 2008 pricing. Those of you who are scoffing that Edge and other developments are overpriced are out of touch with reality. I already lost out an an apt at 80 Metropolitan to someone who paid list price.

jabra, I'm in agreement with you. I'm going into contract for the edge this week. can i suggest going for a lower floor, hence, a lower asking price. I did alot of due diligence before settling on mine-there are alot of different apt configuration in the building. i also got the sponsor to pay for the closing cost/taxes (1.8%) + they agreed to not change common charges for 6 months or until all amenities are up. good luck with your search

ingenieur, I got slightly more than 10% off the asking price

I forgot to mention, did you all know that the 421 Tax Abatement is not in place? Therefore, you will have to pay FULL TAXES until the 421 tax abatement is approved. Just FYI.

Any word on the hoods above the stove?

then you get a tax credit for the extra taxes paid if the abatement is approved

Maybe, but my point is, there is a an extra $700-$1100 a month in costs depending on the size of your apt.

It's not really a "cost", though, given that you will get a credit for any amount overpaid.

Bereasonable - the discounted units you're talking about at 1NSP are worthless units. The B and C line have nice views of the river now (west), but once tower 3 is built that view will be obstructed. Hence the discount to move these units.

The 2BR units are nice in terms of layout, but they are on low floors and have NO VIEW. Most of them are facing the rental building to the south so you're literally facing a wall. You only start getting views if you're at floor 9 or higher.

Skir, what do you think of the 3BRs? Have you seen those?

I'm starting a yahoo group for people in contract at the Edge (myself included):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/williamsburgedge

For now, this group is only for people already in contract. Sorry, no brokers, attorneys, developers, prospective buyers (who have not yet signed a contract), curious bystanders, or ANYONE involved with the selling, marketing, construction or financing of the Edge. There WILL be a verification process.

If you are interested, please visit the webpage and click "Join this group".

No haven't seen those. I would say that buying into 2nsp is a better investment despite the fact that they're offering less of a discount. Right now you can basically cherry pick the best apartments, whereas in tower 1 there's only crap left.

ingeniuer - I saw the 3 brs. They look good on paper. In person, the 2nd and 3rd brs are tiny and they have literally no view - a courtyard and the low income housing IIRC. We were intrigued by having an extra bedroom, but had zero interest after a tour. There is a reason they are priced so low.

treetownal, which 3BR unit did you look at? I believe 4G-7G were available when we saw it. We saw 6G and you are correct, you only have views of the courtyard. Unit 7G on the other hand did have partial water and city views. And the G line are corner units so you get pretty decent light. The BRs are small but the smallest one can fit a full size bed. We inquired about 7G a few days later but it seemed to have been snapped up. At $600/sq ft, the price isn't bad.

We were told 7G was gone when we visited a couple weeks ago. 7G definitely would have been an interesting option, but the others weren't for us. I think it would be hard to resell a place with no views in a building and neighborhood full of spectacular views. I suppose there are niche buyers that might need 3 beds and don't care about the view, but my guess is they would be looking outside of a building with high CCs.

I entered into a contract with the EDGE close to a year ago. As of right now no one in the office knows what is going on and I feel the information they are giving me isn't even true. They keep telling me they will be getting the TCO soon, but the lobby isn't even complete. They also said they are Fannie Mae approved which is false, b/c Bank of America ran a check and found that they are pending Fannie Mae approval, which means most major lenders will not lend. My own lender BofA will not lend until they are either Fannie Mae approved or at least 51% in contract. They are telling me to use HOME which buyers beware is a BROKER. They will charge you add'l fees and will not give you any competitive interest rates, b/c they know you are going to them as a last resort. The broker will shop around to banks all over the country to find a lender. Many of these lenders are smaller banks that are at risk of going under during a financial crisis. So if you take a 15 yr or 30yr fixed and the bank gets acquired by another institution you are NOT guaranteed your current rate. I am strongly considering cancelling my contract in June, when my drop dead date comes around. If anyone is trying to buy at the EDGE do a lot of research and ask a lot of questions before entering into a contract. And if you are considering buying MAKE SURE you get a mortgage contigency!!!!

Susan, They told me that they are approved for the Fannie Mae PERS program, which means that they can meet pre-sale requirements for a Fannie mortgage in individual sections of the building (but isn't the same as being approved for Fannie Mae in general). So, if your unit is in a part of the building that sold better than the rest, maybe the 50% threshold isn't too far off. Also, Brooklyn Federal Savings Bank will finance with 0 points and offers good rates on 30yr fixed.
But I agree with you that the flow of information in regard to closing isn't very good. Will the lobby need to be completed before they can get the TCO?

I was told by Bank of America that their lobby needed to be completed before they would go in and do an appraisal. I was also told by the bank that their lobby needs to be completed before they can get a TCO. Without a completed lobby they cannot allow people to move in or reside in it, for obvious reasons you must pass through the lobby daily to get in and out of the building. It would be a liability if they're still doing construction. I'm actually in the first phase of the closings which is floors 1-9 in the south tower. They're still 20 units short from getting Fannie Mae approval on those floors. So it's just a waiting game.

sorry to hear about problems for those in contract, but we spent several hours in the new playground and down by the river last weekend, and it feels like progress is being made in the park. with the music shows coming this summer, i do think that the river area itself is a great amenity. was with my neighbor and we both were thinking and commenting on just how great the hood is and were psyched about all the nice changes. good luck, if you close, think you will be super happy at the edge.

18 contracts in April?

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/williamsburg-condo-boom-has-not-gone-bust-at-buildings-like-northside-piers-and-the-edge

It's interesting that in the time of intense buying activity the boards for most of the new wmsburg developments have fallen silent

Do sales agents lie?

Anyways, it could be true that they got 18 contracts signed. There is no way to check contract signings, as far as I know. Nothing is certifiable until closings hit and they pop up on ACRIS. Closings won't happen until a couple of weeks after TCO, which looks like mid June from the statements above...

All in all, it remains a big question mark. In the meantime, watch all 7 of these: http://www.metacafe.com/tags/toxic_spill/

tick tock tick tock tick tock

If you don't get 50% off of list you will never get your money back on the Edge.

50% off of list, is somewhere around $450 psf. Prices on Williamsburg waterfront will never rise above $450 psf. Ok.

exactly

does anyone know when closing will be?

30 day notices went out on Friday. First buyers are expected to close this month.

Will there be a price cuts after closing/more negotiable? What % off or ppsf is reasonable for a 1 or 2 bedroom with views that will not be blocked?

My broker was just advised that they are offering further price reductions///will get more info from her today

The Edge is not negotiating as much as they should. They only came down 8% for my wife and I. It's not worth it if they can't come down 15%. Our unit is on one of the bottom floors and has no view. We are weighing our options, but they really aren't budging very much.

If that's all they are coming down, then I'm out. It's not worth it to throw more money after bad. Prices have to more down more than 8% in the last 2.5 years. Why have an underwater mortgage on day one?

I'm currently negotiating with them on a unit as well; they have come down about 10% from the asking (the unit is not on the market so it's hard to say what asking actually is). Seems like they're currently still too optimistic on the market; IMHO they have to go at least another 5-10% down in order to be competitive assuming they want to sell the condos before 2015...

Yeah, they are barely at 30% sold in the south tower. I think you have to play hard ball with them. IT's one of the better developments, but it's not worth a $50/sf premium.

Hi NYCrealist, I thought 30% was for both towers?

NYCrealist & TGIRentstabilized, are you in contract at the Edge and deciding to negotiate or walk away or potential buyers?

What is the context in wmburg right now? W11 sold very well (at a lower price point), toll brothers has moved 1/3 o nsp2 in post-crash environment in the last year, 70 berry sold out, 125n 10th now nearly sold out....but on the other hand 80 met and 58 met and 29 south 3rd all still struggling, with 80 met now on the market for three years perhaps.

Is the Edge now priced to move as was those other successful buildings, or will it be 80 met? What premium is the edge charging over competitors and is it worth it?

vkuch1 - any updates from your broker? last i heard was 10-15%, but giving the amount of waterfront units on the market i'm pretty confident they'll have to go to at least 20%.

Warehouse 11 sold eventually - yes i agree. But to my point, they had slash prices by 20%+.
http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/07/15/as_the_smoke_clears_30_units_sold_in_warehouse_11_fire_sale.php

NYCrealist and bereasonable-- i agree with you completely. we are seriously considering walking away from our contract because we are concerned about being instantaneously underwater on our mortgage as well. the edge needs to have a serious reality check if they think that they can keep their buyers and maintain their measly 30% without any realistic concessions.

asdfasf1234 - I am in contract. We are trying to negotiate, but they are stonewalling and threatening us with losing our deposit.
lifeontheedge - Play hardball. If enough people in contract threaten to walk away they will panic and start working with buyers. They need to maintain their 30%.
ingenieur - They might be at 30% for both north and south, but the north tower is 5-6 weeks away from closing, whereas closings on the south tower should start in a week or two.

As of 2 weeks ago, they were NOT at 30% for both towers. I'm not sure if that's changed.

bereasonable - They've sent out closing letters for the south tower. I'm assuming they needed 30% to do that, maybe not

Maybe they have it for the south only. Not sure what the rules are, but I verified it 2 weeks ago for the whole project. That may have changed.

Interesting article...

http://www.brickunderground.com/blog/2010/07/inside_story_confessions_of_a_preconstruction_condo_buyer

once offering plan is declared effective by ag, there is no turning back, it doesn't matter if everyone walks away. I think if you guys in contract should read on these boards what has happened in other new developments, you will see that the strength in numbers thing doesn't seem to work well w/ developers, and i would think this would be even more so the case w/ big bldgs and big companies. look at the brompton, the majority of the buyers were threatening ilsa suits and as far as i know, none of that panned out, many closed and others just lost their deposits

I'm not a RE attorney, but it might make sense for contract holders to form a buyer's group and hire a good one. 2-3k to save 75k+ seems reasonable to me.

Also, even if the offering plan is effective, doesn't missing the closing date detailed in the offering plan (outside date) by more than a year often mean that buyers can get their deposits back? There was a long post on this from a Warehouse 11 buyer on this thread and it also happened at the Rushmore.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/attorney-general-andrew-cuomo-orders-extell-to-refund-rushmore-buyers-developer-gary-barnett-talks-about-the-building-future

Just some suggestions; I'm not a RE attorney, so I could be wrong. Good luck!

yes , you are correct, i was refering to the # of people who must close; as long as there is one bona fide closing by the deadline set in offering plan, they are ok

what would you want this attorney to do for you; unless they have violated terms of the contract, what legal grounds do you have for a price reduction. IMO you are better off dealing with the developer in a non-confrontational

asdfasf1234 - The Edge had iron clad contracts for the early buyers, not sure if they are as strict now. The drop dead date was September 2010 for closing, which is why the Edge is closing in about 2 weeks. So they can squeeze right under the deadline.

kiz10014 - The Edge is negotiating with those in contract already. Just not enough in my opinion. They are hedging their bets at 8-10%. With NSP negotiating at 15% on tower 2, and their firesale of tower 1, The Edge has its work cut out for it. The last thing the Edge needs is a bunch of buyers in contract contacting lawyers to get out of their contracts. It's 2010, those in contract can easily communicate with each other and let each other know what is going on. No more smoke and mirrors.

Bereasonable it is odd you refer to only thirty percent sold when you say you are in contract . Surely you Are aware the office says high thirties.

As for walking away , presumably that means you lose ten percent ??? Since the current ask is not too much below ten off , especially if add to it a discount they give , what do you gain by walking? Just wondering. How serious is this threat

Hi buyerbuyer.
I was just as surprised as you when I started to go through the financing process. Mortgage companies have a better count because they have hurdle rates depending on percent sold. The mortgage terms they offer change dramatically depending on that number. They check frequently for the latest count. Like I said, this was 2 weeks ago so the number may be higher at this point.
I have not been offerred below 10%. Even at 10% they are multiples higher than all similar apts in the area.

As far as how serious - I'm not doing this to get in an argument with anyone. It just makes no economic sense and it is better to cut my losses if the price doesn't come down like every other building in the neighborhood.

buyerbuyer - in all fairness the Edge sales office was saying 35% sold back in March. Which was obviously a lie.
bereasonable - are you in contract? Have you tried negotiating with them?

I'm just saying you don't have any legal bargaining angle. getting people together and negotiating as a group on the surface sounds reasonable, but i think that it won't be successful. the group, each of which had tens of thousands of dollars on the line will all want different things and won't be willing to lose thier money based on what someone else in the group wants. in other words you will never be able to collectively bargain as a group because not everyone will be willing to lose their deposit at the same threshold.
i think you need to try your best to negotiate in good faith, don't become litigious or threatening, express to the developer that you are a good buyer, see what you can get and decide whether it makes sense to move forward or walk.

I am in contract.
I have tried and am waiting to hear back from them. I was told it was too early in the past, but obviously now is the time.

Just my ignorance. . How and from whom and based on what does the bank get a sold number? How is it obvious the edge is lying? I just don't understand how you are so sure. Also are people walking from ten percent deposits. What do you guys think is the market as of now? How much discount you need to stay? If they give you ten that is eqivalent to you paying twenty percent less than original cost since your deposit is sunk cost.