We are getting general contractors to bid on our gut renovation project. For labor and rough material only, we got bids of about 170, 220, and 350 per sqft, plus one very rough estimate of 300-400 per sqft. All contractors have good license and permit history, and have experience in this type of work. The two lower bids came from companies with web presence, mostly good reviews, office/showroom in... [more]
We are getting general contractors to bid on our gut renovation project. For labor and rough material only, we got bids of about 170, 220, and 350 per sqft, plus one very rough estimate of 300-400 per sqft. All contractors have good license and permit history, and have experience in this type of work.
The two lower bids came from companies with web presence, mostly good reviews, office/showroom in Manhattan, and the bid are quite detailed (the 220 one came with many items, each of which with units and a unit price).
The two higher bids are from contractors that our super/architect recommended, and they have got repeat work in the same building, so they should be good. However, they don't have any web presence, and they office are located in the outer boroughs. Their bids are not detailed at all, one with a grand total, the other with a fairly wide range on each broad category.
This is quite confusing because it seems to me that the lower-overhead GCs should give lower bids, not much higher.
I also wonder why labor costs can differ by so much. I remember people said that high-end work is not only in the finishing materials, but also in labor. But aside from how the skim-coating and painting looks, and how the millwork looks, where else can one tell better quality from so-so quality of labor? This is assuming the fundamentals are met, of course. So no leaks and walls are straight and every outlet works.
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Response by 300_mercer
about 9 years ago
Posts: 10552
Member since: Feb 2007
$350 for labor and rough materials (assume finishes are additional putting the project at $500 plus per sq ft min) can go out of the window right away. There is indeed difference in labor quality but not that much. I would make sure that 170 and 220 per sq ft bids are well documented, look at the sample of projects they have done, timeliness, and they are not going to make you go through numerous change orders. Your architect should help with that unless you are paying the architect a percentage of the cost, in which case architects motives are not aligned. There is a very large variation in cost for roughly the same quality - english speaking labor vs non english speaking labor, how much work the contractor has, how full-service they are in terms of supervision requirements and coordination, whether they will order the finishes for you and whether they will charge you extra for that etc.
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Response by wongepea
about 9 years ago
Posts: 9
Member since: May 2013
Your best bet is to get referrals and look at the actual completed projects. If they are good, they can give you a number of projects they finished and you can speak to their customers.
I do not like grand total bids. I have seen them and it can lead to future problems/misunderstanding when certain aspects start going over cost and you cant tell by how much because its all buried in a giant total.
Why do bids vary so much ? at times its different overhead. Other times they just want to make a certain amount on each project. Other times, its the type of contractor. Design build firms are more expensive because they will offer design help and sourcing of materials. More hand holding. Good if you need that, but not for everyone.
Get detailed bids. Even then , you may be surprised at what they charge. I had one contractor charge $500 for each
stick on battery powered fire alarm. He had 5 alarms on his bid sheet. I have no clue why he thought this was going to fly. I did not use them.
Again, look at their referrals, you eyes wont lie to you. You will always be able to see clean,straight lines, quality work. Do not think just because they charge the highest, the work is any better.
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Response by Primer05
about 9 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
Fire dragon,
Bids can vary for several reasons. The labor can be a major item, its not just the carpenter its all the trades, the differences between great plumbers and not so great plumbers is huge and the same could be said about the flooring, tiles, millwork, electrician, etc. You can find a contractor who pays their carpenter $100 a day and one who pays theirs $400 a day, there is a reason. What is also just as important is who is running the project? Is there a project manager? A site super? will they have laborers on site cleaning every day? I would stay away from a contractor who doe snot breakdown their bids, it should be pretty detailed. As far as prices if you are doing a high end project it should be at least $300 a sq ft.
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Response by FireDragon
about 9 years ago
Posts: 110
Member since: May 2009
The two lower bids came from design/build firms. They have designers, program managers, and handle material sourcing. I actually prefer less handholding, but they both stressed to me the importance of letting them order the finishing materials to avoid problems and delays. I think that makes sense, and maybe part of their profit is built into there. I have no problem as long as the markup is reasonable. (A friend talked about a contractor who put a 100% markup on many items!)
Thanks for the advices. 300, my architect is a flat fee one, so there is no conflict of interest. I'll ask for his opinion. I'll also check references and see job sites. The lowest bid has the longest warranty and they've been in business for a long time. Their bid isn't as detailed as the second lowest one, but still lists job scope in each room and a subtotal for that room. I can tell their unit price is lower in a few areas.
Wongepea, I saw your recommendation of classic and contacted them. They replied quickly that they are busy till next spring so can't take on my project. How much per sqft did your reno come to and are you satisfied? The $500 stick on fire alarm is ridiculous!
Primer, the $300 number is including the finishing materials right? I think we're getting there with the window replacements, air conditioner work, etc.
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Response by Primer05
about 9 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
$300 with finished material but with new windows and HVAC it could cause the price to go up more depending how involved it is. It usually is better to have the GC purchase the materials and they become responsible for them but I have worked on many projects where the owner purchased everything and we helped them in all aspects of ordering.
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Response by knewbie
about 9 years ago
Posts: 163
Member since: Sep 2013
We were at about $250, but that is with our own sourcing of materials. I think roughly $350 is about right with a design build firm. I did like our contractor, the finish work was very good.
One thing with a design build firm is to make sure you understand how they will source and any limitations.
With design build, as long as you know what you are getting into, they are a good alternative. At times you may be forced to source thru them and pay their price because of time constraints. So plan
accordingly and be aware of time frames on when specific materials will be needed.
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Response by saj8200
almost 9 years ago
Posts: 56
Member since: Mar 2009
FireDragon, can you say which direction you decided to go? Would you recommend your architect who is flat fe? Sounds like our projects are similar. For high-end on architect estimated $550-$650k for 1400 sq ft 2 BR 2 bath. Gut Reno with Demo of some walls and needs windows and HVACs. Architect will only do %. Thank you.
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Response by saj8200
almost 9 years ago
Posts: 56
Member since: Mar 2009
FireDragon, can you say which direction you decided to go? Would you recommend your architect who is flat fe? Sounds like our projects are similar. For high-end on architect estimated $550-$650k for 1400 sq ft 2 BR 2 bath. Gut Reno with Demo of some walls and needs windows and HVACs. Architect will only do %. Thank you.
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Response by Primer05
almost 9 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
Saj8200,
I work with several architects who take on projects for flat fees. Feel free to email me at primerenovations@mac.com or call 646-436-3942. www.primerenovationsnyc.com
Jeff
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Response by FireDragon
almost 9 years ago
Posts: 110
Member since: May 2009
Saj, I do like our architect very much. Send me an email at fd7329@gmail.com.
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$350 for labor and rough materials (assume finishes are additional putting the project at $500 plus per sq ft min) can go out of the window right away. There is indeed difference in labor quality but not that much. I would make sure that 170 and 220 per sq ft bids are well documented, look at the sample of projects they have done, timeliness, and they are not going to make you go through numerous change orders. Your architect should help with that unless you are paying the architect a percentage of the cost, in which case architects motives are not aligned. There is a very large variation in cost for roughly the same quality - english speaking labor vs non english speaking labor, how much work the contractor has, how full-service they are in terms of supervision requirements and coordination, whether they will order the finishes for you and whether they will charge you extra for that etc.
Your best bet is to get referrals and look at the actual completed projects. If they are good, they can give you a number of projects they finished and you can speak to their customers.
I do not like grand total bids. I have seen them and it can lead to future problems/misunderstanding when certain aspects start going over cost and you cant tell by how much because its all buried in a giant total.
Why do bids vary so much ? at times its different overhead. Other times they just want to make a certain amount on each project. Other times, its the type of contractor. Design build firms are more expensive because they will offer design help and sourcing of materials. More hand holding. Good if you need that, but not for everyone.
Get detailed bids. Even then , you may be surprised at what they charge. I had one contractor charge $500 for each
stick on battery powered fire alarm. He had 5 alarms on his bid sheet. I have no clue why he thought this was going to fly. I did not use them.
Again, look at their referrals, you eyes wont lie to you. You will always be able to see clean,straight lines, quality work. Do not think just because they charge the highest, the work is any better.
Fire dragon,
Bids can vary for several reasons. The labor can be a major item, its not just the carpenter its all the trades, the differences between great plumbers and not so great plumbers is huge and the same could be said about the flooring, tiles, millwork, electrician, etc. You can find a contractor who pays their carpenter $100 a day and one who pays theirs $400 a day, there is a reason. What is also just as important is who is running the project? Is there a project manager? A site super? will they have laborers on site cleaning every day? I would stay away from a contractor who doe snot breakdown their bids, it should be pretty detailed. As far as prices if you are doing a high end project it should be at least $300 a sq ft.
The two lower bids came from design/build firms. They have designers, program managers, and handle material sourcing. I actually prefer less handholding, but they both stressed to me the importance of letting them order the finishing materials to avoid problems and delays. I think that makes sense, and maybe part of their profit is built into there. I have no problem as long as the markup is reasonable. (A friend talked about a contractor who put a 100% markup on many items!)
Thanks for the advices. 300, my architect is a flat fee one, so there is no conflict of interest. I'll ask for his opinion. I'll also check references and see job sites. The lowest bid has the longest warranty and they've been in business for a long time. Their bid isn't as detailed as the second lowest one, but still lists job scope in each room and a subtotal for that room. I can tell their unit price is lower in a few areas.
Wongepea, I saw your recommendation of classic and contacted them. They replied quickly that they are busy till next spring so can't take on my project. How much per sqft did your reno come to and are you satisfied? The $500 stick on fire alarm is ridiculous!
Primer, the $300 number is including the finishing materials right? I think we're getting there with the window replacements, air conditioner work, etc.
$300 with finished material but with new windows and HVAC it could cause the price to go up more depending how involved it is. It usually is better to have the GC purchase the materials and they become responsible for them but I have worked on many projects where the owner purchased everything and we helped them in all aspects of ordering.
We were at about $250, but that is with our own sourcing of materials. I think roughly $350 is about right with a design build firm. I did like our contractor, the finish work was very good.
One thing with a design build firm is to make sure you understand how they will source and any limitations.
With design build, as long as you know what you are getting into, they are a good alternative. At times you may be forced to source thru them and pay their price because of time constraints. So plan
accordingly and be aware of time frames on when specific materials will be needed.
FireDragon, can you say which direction you decided to go? Would you recommend your architect who is flat fe? Sounds like our projects are similar. For high-end on architect estimated $550-$650k for 1400 sq ft 2 BR 2 bath. Gut Reno with Demo of some walls and needs windows and HVACs. Architect will only do %. Thank you.
FireDragon, can you say which direction you decided to go? Would you recommend your architect who is flat fe? Sounds like our projects are similar. For high-end on architect estimated $550-$650k for 1400 sq ft 2 BR 2 bath. Gut Reno with Demo of some walls and needs windows and HVACs. Architect will only do %. Thank you.
Saj8200,
I work with several architects who take on projects for flat fees. Feel free to email me at primerenovations@mac.com or call 646-436-3942. www.primerenovationsnyc.com
Jeff
Saj, I do like our architect very much. Send me an email at fd7329@gmail.com.