CRAINS - Brooklyn's home sales and prices cooling

One reason for the run-up in Brooklyn re values is the relatively new perception in the market that Brooklyn has a high quality of life.

This may be true, in the sense that it is greener than the city and less noisy, and overall life is more gentle.

However those are not the lifestyle values held in highest value in New York, traditionally. The highest values are: being close to the arts, like Lincoln Center, or jazz rooms in the Village, or being close to upscale shopping on Madison Ave, or being close to the park.

So if you want to know if Brooklyn will hold its value, you have to ask, will the market continue to value Brooklyn attributes as highly as it does now?

I personally don't know the answer. I lived in B'lyn for 9 years and have now been in the city for 5 yrs. My social life is better and I see a lot of more shows, and this a direct result of being in mnahattan.

Brooklyn is toast. Glut + overhype + the worst overall RE market since the great depression won't really work for anyone...

EddieWilson, why exactly are you on a crusade against Brooklyn?

Because I was born there, and live there now. Its fun to see all the schmucks from Murray Hill getting toasted!

Eddie, congratulations on your rise in life! Did you even move from your childhood home or did you take over the payments, convert the palce into a two family and your mom and dad live in one unit? Sounds like the best case scenario for a mutt like you.

Eddie, schadenfreude isn't exactly a winning personality trait, but suit yourself. I'm not sure how you're "seeing" them get "toasted," but either way, I don't understand how this gives you such pleasure. Most people I've spoken to are quite happy with their purchases in Brooklyn.

"Eddie, congratulations on your rise in life! Did you even move from your childhood home or did you take over the payments, convert the palce into a two family and your mom and dad live in one unit? Sounds like the best case scenario for a mutt like you."

Thanks!

And, no, I actually got rich independent of real estate... but just happened to make some more there. And I live with the gf in a 1500 square foot loft in an over $1k average PSF building (well, in 2007 that is)... top floor. Mom and Dad are in the burbs now.

I figured I'd give Brooklyn a chance after a bunch of years in Manhattan, but I think the experiment is over... this borough is done.

> I don't understand how this gives you such pleasure.

Yes, I feel a little guilty about it, but...its my Told You So moment. I'm not angry, I'm flipping fantastically happy. It always feels nice to go against the grain, and then be there waiting to pick over the carcass....

> Most people I've spoken to are quite happy with their purchases in Brooklyn.

Sure, there are definitely some people who live living here. And that fine, and thats what residential real estate should be. Great for those folks.

But anyone who used the word "investment" in doing so, particularly if they stretched to buy what they couldn't afford... well, they're getting what they deserved.

Eddie, finally a decent post. I agree with the investment take to a degree, though I don't think everyone will get "what they deserved." I do disagree with the fact that Brooklyn is "done" though - many Manhattan establishments are relocating there to take advantage of lower rents, etc. It's a good thing.

And, no, I actually got rich independent of real estate... but just happened to make some more there. And I live with the gf in a 1500 square foot loft in an over $1k average PSF building (well, in 2007 that is)... top floor. Mom and Dad are in the burbs now.

of course we believe you eddie.
sounds 100% credible.
and the gf is hot hot hot, right?
like look out angie hot?

I don't need you to belive me. But if you think *that* is bragging, then, wow, I really have to wonder about all your big talk now.

> and the gf is hot hot hot, right?

No, in all honestly, more on the cute side. I don't know who angie is.

On, and I will admit one thing... its actually only 1433....

I really have to wonder about all your big talk now.

big talk about what? have i ever mentioned a spouse in any context? ever discussed my primary residence in terms of size and worth? ever said i was rich?

you're very juvenile, eddie.

I was simply responding to an "inquiry" from someone who had run out of facts....

there are all kinds of facts to support all kinds of outcomes. what the facts lead to can only be discovered in retrospect.

Angelina Jolie?

I wouldn't be surprised if Eddie has a good-looking gf, he seems to be able to talk a good line of bull that could work well with the ladies . . .

and i suppose that means you can't locate that bragging post by me...

I'd rather live in most of Brooklyn than in Prime Long Island City.

steve - That's probably because Brooklyn has more old-age homes and you can be around more of your peers. Thanks again for another comment that shows how uninformed you are.

"That's probably because Brooklyn has more old-age homes and you can be around more of your peers."

As I recall it was my elderly-before-her-time grandmother who lived in Prime Long Island City, in an apartment owned by someone who was even more elderly-before-his-time. They got old so fast because there was nothing to do.

No wait! THERE'S A DUANE READE COMING! Yipee! Yapee! Yahooie!

> and i suppose that means you can't locate that bragging post by me...

You are right. Sorry, I confused you with someone else.

> Thanks again for another comment that shows how uninformed you are.

Except for the fact that he's statistically correct. PSFs for similar spaces are *dramatically* higher in "prime" brooklyn than "prime" LIC.

> I wouldn't be surprised if Eddie has a good-looking gf, he seems to be able to talk a good line of
> bull that could work well with the ladies . . .

Kettle black, kettle black. LIC wouldn't know a fact if it smacked his gf in the ass and bought her dinner. I think he's officially hit 50 posts in a row where it was nothing but stuff we used to say in 3rd grade.

I thought your grandmother lived in Chelsea?

Thanks for using your decades-old memories of LIC and applying them to present-day. My grandmother still looks at things that way too, I guess it's a generational thing.

btw, I don't really love either - "prime" brooklyn, or "prime" lic, whatever the hell *that* is - but I find it amazing that someone is even trying to make the comparison.

Maybe in 50 years, the earth will shift, and the wanna be manhattan part of queens will have something resembling culture/nightlife/density/restaurants, but I don't think any of us will live to see it. The Manhattan exodus has been to Brooklyn, and will always be years and years behind it, particularly because LIC was manufactured for the most part, and Brooklyn wasn't (with the exception of DUMBO, but it benefits from the real stuff nearby).

Eddie, there you go with the reading problems again. steve said "most of Brooklyn", not prime Brooklyn. But keeping making things up, it works for you.

The gf remark was meant as a compliment; I didn't know you would be so defensive about it . . .

And I keep coming back to the... LIC = Jersey City thing. I think thats a *much* closer comparison, neighborhoods who's value rests on what they are near and what they look at, not what they *are*.

> Eddie, there you go with the reading problems again. steve said
> "most of Brooklyn", not prime Brooklyn.

One is definitely better than LIC, the other probably better that LIC. What's your point?

LICC, I was in Prime Long Island City a year ago. The only difference between then and now is that the barren industrial wasteland that it was has given way to a barren industrial wasteland of overpriced "luxury" condos that nobody wants. There's still nothing to do, no downtown, no restaurants, nothing. At least Brooklyn has Atlantic Avenue and 5th Avenue. LIC has 21st Street.

Back in the day it wasn't Duane Reade - it was Genovese. There was one of those nearby, but when we REALLY wanted to have some fun we'd take the bus to Steinway Street in Astoria. Now THAT was shopping!

In the 1968 blizzard Mayor Lindsay forgot to plow Long Island City. There was a reason.

The Manhattan exodus has been to Brooklyn

the downwardly mobile...trotting off to brooklyn.

Eddie, in all seriousness, yes I agree that the main Manhattan transplant market has historically been Brooklyn. Before LIC was re-zoned, it didn't really have anyplace for Manhattanites to consider (except for those looking for something more suburban who considered Forest Hills). Now that LIC is just really coming on-line, we are seeing lots of Manhattanites buying there. Once all the new buildings are complete, people have moved in, and more and more amenities open, we will see even more midtown workers at LIC, the way downtown workers look at Brooklyn and Jersey City. The first time I seriously considered buying in LIC was when I went with a friend to a get-together of recent buyers in the building where she moved. I saw a bunch of young, mainly Manhattan professionals with a mix of creative types just thrilled with the area, their building, the commute, the views, the pier, the new restaurants, cafes, etc. I looked at the area more and more, talked to a lot of people living there and got mostly positive feedback everywhere I went. The area's great potential is coming to fruition and I'm glad I bought there.

Woops, I meant to say that Queens didn't have anyplace for Manhattanites to consider.

>> The Manhattan exodus has been to Brooklyn

> the downwardly mobile...trotting off to brooklyn.

Absolutely... but, as history demonstrates, thats what makes for great neighborhoods. Most of the best neighborhoods were created by the influx of the folks who couldn't afford the then "hot" neighborhood. SoHo, Tribeca, the West Village, the East Village.... all neighborhoods that took in the "downwardly mobile". DUMBO became the same (of course then it got hijacked by too much building too quick, allowing it to go 95% murray hill former residents), but places like Cobble Hill and Fort Greene did rather nicely.

Hell, the original "hot" neighborhood - the one anyone with money lived in - is actually the cheapest part of Manhattan these days... Upper East Side. The east part of it has some of the lower PSFs anywhere south of 96th street...

In the 1968 blizzard Mayor Lindsay forgot to plow Long Island City. There was a reason.

In 1968 would anyone have bought in most of the now hot areas in Manhattan or Brooklyn? what does 1968 have to do with 2008 real estate?

But it is quite scary if you recall what wasn't plowed in 1968. Holy shit. Shouldn't you have been in Vietnam if you recall snow storms back then?

Most of the best neighborhoods were created by the influx of the folks who couldn't afford the then "hot" neighborhood

didn't you just back up what LICC is saying?

steve, we already went through on another thread all the new places in LIC where people have "things to do." Does your memory suffer that much when you get old? The main retail streets in LIC are Vernon, Jackson and 11th.

Thanks for bringing up 1968. If you are going to bring things up from way before I was born, can they at least be relevant to this discussion?

> > Most of the best neighborhoods were created by the influx of the folks who
> > couldn't afford the then "hot" neighborhood

> didn't you just back up what LICC is saying?

No.. it didn't mean that *every* neighborhood that saw influx became cool. In particuarly, the ones that saw middle class influx - as opposed to artist/hipster/etc - ended up being pretty lousy.

Murray Hill anyone? or Battery Park City? or Jersey City?

But the worst is when the influx starts, and then never fully makes it. Leaving some folks high and dry. I think red hook is going to sorta make it into that category.

But, I think LIC is at the top of that heap, it got a lot of folks who moved for price, and thats it. Thats Jersey City.