Sunnyside Up?

Sunnyside?

Don't know myself -- I've lived in Sunnyside for years and adore it. Prices have really jumped, in my opinion, since LIC buildings started going to market. The thinking I guess is people priced out of LIC will then naturally head to Astoria or Sunnyside. But I have a hard time imagining people paying upwards of 400K for a 2 br here and occasionally I see ones listed (particularly a few new buildings in our area).

According to the City taxation dept. in 2002 the house we live in was valued at 301,000 and as of this year it is valued at ~800,000 (we rent an apartment in the house). The market for Sunnyside Garden houses is always tight and properties move fast - very desirable to live in the gardens.

Oh and those 400+ apartments, new construction.... are on Queens Boulevard and look directly at the train. I can't imagine even with good windows that its quiet there.

Queens?
wrong real estate blog.

@urnfna - why the hate? Seriously Queens is so berated but there are great neighborhoods and properties here!

I'm definitely bullish on the area given it's proximity to Midtown (15 mins). I'm just surprised that there's no downturn in pricing. The last 6 months were pretty brutal on even some parts of Manhattan.

newaccount -- you live in the area yet? It's a great neighborhood, we love it. We'd stay here if we could find something in our size / price range, but haven't yet. I too have expected the prices to come down a bit here as some asking prices are too high. Not yet though. I think there is potential that they will. Then again I also think there is potential they'll just plateau for a bit and then go up again.

i'm joking, Queens is good, that's where Archie Bunker lived.

@urnfna - Besides Shea Stadium, the world's fair globe - that's the only other thing people seem to mention about Queens!

jfk, lga

@urnfna - just joking back ;-)

Eddie Murphy filmed Coming to America in Queens

I've lived in Sunnyside as well as other parts of Queens. Át these prices, $2000 for mortgage and maint for a 2 BR is still very affordable and way under the limit for a conforming loan so I'd expect strength in this area.

I can't imagine paying 2000 per month while looking (and listening) to the 7 train rattle by every day...

Here's a good example:

Directly on Queens Boulevard:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/162023-condo-41-queens-blvd-sunnyside and their listing on PruEll:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/938217

I just did a search and am seeing lots of 1 bedrooms over 300K -- for instance: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/158427-condo-43-33-forty-eighth-street-sunnyside

Do you think these prices will stick?

Those Phoenix condos will cost you about $3k/mo. Most of the inventory is coops and there's not a lot of land to put up new condos. It beats the $4,500/mo upkeep cost for a 2 BR at LIC.

I'm on the "budget" end of the apartment spectrum... and I can't fathom that kind of money for my neighborhood as much as I love it here. If I had that cash maybe...

Why not consider a coop?

Oh we've definitely been looking at coops -- in a number of areas in Qns, Manhattan, Brooklyn. I just linked to those showing some of the prices.

tandare, have you looked at Celtic Park? Those are among the lowest priced apts in the neighborhood and I think they are well run. They have 24 hr security so when NYC turns the clock back to the 1970's, you'll live in a safe compound! StreetEasy doesn't cover Sunnyside very well. Look in NYTimes or CL.

I'm bumping this b/c beyond NYTimes and CL - it is hard to find a good source for Sunnyside / Woodside sales. So many of the brokers I find don't know how to list their properties and end up forgetting to post their open house or make sure listings are updated.

Is there some other source - website / message board / forum for Sunnyside / Woodside ?

Thanks.

Many listings in this area are exclusives without MLS listings. Try walking into Cooper Realty on 44th St south of Greenpoint Ave and Sun-Wood Realty on 43rd Ave.

thanks newaccount - i've got a buyer's broker (mainly works in Manhattan) any thoughts as to how to deal with the local brokerages?

You don't need a buyer's broker for Sunnyside. These Queens brokers are a lot less sophisticated than your average Manhattan broker. Take what they say with a grain of salt and just have them show you the apts that you would otherwise miss on MLS. Being less sophisticated can be a good thing because they may not be as sneaky as the professionals in Manhattan.

Anyone see the recent asking prices in Sunnyside? They're up about 15% from 2 months ago! It would be really hard to get comps at these prices. Any realtor, seller, or buyer have insight on this?

newaccount - it is you and I still on this thread. I have to believe other folks from Sunnyside/Woodside are on this board.

I've seen a few gentle price drops in a few Sunnyside / Jackson Hts listings. How is your search going?

Sunnyside and Jackson Heights are both neighborhoods dominated by boutique brokers who refuse to share their listings (and commissions) with others. It's an unfortunate, totalitarian system, but it's what's in place there.

As a result, hiring a buyer's broker will likely not only not help you, but actually hurt you. The sellers' agents don't want to share their commissions, and, if they're really dishonest, may dissuade/refuse to return calls from your agent in an effort not to sell via a co-broke. That scenario is probably less likely in a tough market, but old habits die hard. Don't think it's out of the question. Some of these boutique brokers tend to be nasty, acerbic, 'mine mine mine' types (to be fair, I don't have any personal dealings with Sunnyside brokers, but I do with some Jackson Heights ones, and they fit the description...nasty and selfish.)

The advice to walk into the local powerhouse broker and see what they have for sale is sound. It's disconcerting to have to patronize what is effectively the real estate version of protection money and mafia-like neighborhood enforcers, but if you want to have a broad sense of what's available in a given neighborhood like this, that's your best bet.

Someone -- Just finding the listings in these neighborhoods is hard, brokers often don't list on any useful site, don't have them even in their window ads sometimes. Even having a buyer's broker isn't helpful since finding out about the listings is tough.

Correct, that's why you have to hoof it to the local agents.

Or ask your friendly Streeteasy message board participant who prefers to sell on his own without brokers what he has for sale these days in those neighborhoods (hint, hint) :)

I am an investor in Sunnyside now, since I moved to Manhattan. My property has more than doubled in value in the past 5 years. I'm seeing ads on Craigslist for $399k 2 BR co-ops. See that my initial post saw 2 BR's at $339k only 2 months ago. In less than a year's time, the asking prices went from roughly $299k to $399k.

SomeonewhoKnows is right about the realtors in the area. There isn't much exposure in the NYTimes, Newsday, or StreetEasy. Go to the local brokers.

newaccount -- I'm wondering if you think the price increases are justified, because no disrespect intended, I don't think the increases are warranted. Seems like just the tail end of real estate hubris with people becoming convinced that the 800K apts near Qnsboro Plaza meant Sunnyside was going to soar upwards...?

Heh-heh! I really don't know. I agree with you for the most part, but the market is what it is and the market sets the price, not any one buyer or seller. I'd really like to know if people are getting even within 10% of their asking prices. It may be time for me to sell.

well, newaccount - I don't know if people are coming within 5-10% of asking. What I do know is that several apartments in the neighborhood have been on the market since June or July and in most cases the price has gone down more than once, and yet it remains on the market. I've seen a few of them myself, and they're still on the market as of this past week.

I think Sunnyside is a goldmine. The prices they are getting in LIC just minutes away with hookers for neighbors is insane. Sunnyside is just up the road and WOW what a difference. The neighborhood is amazing with tons of resturants, pubs, civilization. You wait and see, New condos are going to pop up all over the place (once the market stabilizes) and everyone is going to wish they had bought back when Sunnyside was a hidden jem. I say buy now, you can probably get a great deal.

fancygirl - Sunnyside is fantastic. No argument there. I've lived there for several years. Would be very happy with a purchase in the neighborhood, but size / price considerations have not worked out yet. Sunnyside is not known for larger apartments, for one.

As you point out about the LIC prices - Sunny and Woodside are much more affordable. However, I really strongly believe LIC is going to drop in prices or those new buildings will just go rental. And many people have looked around and figured if LIC can *ask* ridiculous prices, why can't they in Sunnyside? I've seen some highly ambitious pricing in Sunny over the last year. A lot of it doesn't move. We'll see...

fancygirl - do you currently live in the neighborhood?

Tandare, Yes I live in the neighborhood. I rent in one of the new condo buildings which I Love. I hope to buy there soon ( still saving money for a downpayment) I moved here from Astoria and I truly think Sunnyside is much better than Astoria. For one thing Astoria is so large and each section is very different. It seems with Sunnyside you have either the south side or the north side (much more desirable). I love the North side near the Gardens and for my money, thats where I will Buy. I think the price increases over the past year show that Sunnyside is becoming more well know as a great place to live and so easy to get to midtown. I agree Sunnyside is not known for large apartments and if a large apt is what your looking for you would probably be better off with a house(I know they are hard to come by). For me I only need a 1 bed so I think I should be OK. I agree with some of the ambitious pricing. Just because the new Condos are asking and getting a certain high number owners of older apts in not as nice buildings that definately need renovations think they can ask the same price. I hope you find what you are looking for!!!!

How long have you been in Sunnyside? Many years ago I lived in Astoria as well. Both have their pluses. There are some great buildings on both sides of Qns Boulevard. We live in the Gardens, which are lovely. But you're right - folks who buy houses here find them hard to come by and expensive. I remember in 2002 when houses here might sell for about what some of these apartments in the neighborhood are asking for. No joke. We'll see where the pricing goes!

I've been here a little under a year. How about you? See, thats my point. If you look back to 2002 prices you wish you probably wish you had bought a house then. I just think the same will be true for a condo here when more new ones spring up. We shall see....for now I love just living(renting) in the neighborhood. If a good deal comes my way I will be sure to take it.

I've been in Sunnyside since 2000. Prices are not the same as before but the neighborhood is not the same either. It has improved significantly since then with better stores, improved safety, cleaner streets, and young professionals moving into the area. The restaurants along Queens Blvd have improved and as of ~2006, we got a Starbucks. There's a lot more potential for Sunnyside as neighborhood 15 minutes from midtown. When the area gets gentrified further, the price gap with LIC will narrow.

hi newaccount. I agree that the price gap will narrow with LIC as soon as the neighborhood gets more well know. It seems Sunnyside is getting better know with the young professional from Manhattan. My building is occupied by mostly manhattan transplants who love what they can get for there money here and tell their friends. Thats why the rents are going up in Sunnyside. I think they are the same if not more than better known Astoria.

I've been in Sunnyside for ~6yrs. Well, if you can't swing the funds to buy in any particular year there's no point in sweating about it years later (e.g., 2002 vs. 2008).

I feel the neighborhood's safety, at least where I am, has not changed positively or negatively since I've never there -- always felt safe and never seen any change. I know some areas in Sunny have had a steady increase in safety since the 80's from some neighbors.

Personally, the Starbucks does not add to my enjoyment of the neighborhood. I still miss Blooms, which used to be on Queens Blvd (where the CVS is now).

@newaccount -- lately I've noticed more graffiti and homeless in the neighborhood. The graffiti seems to wax and wane and is usually fixed quickly (at street level).

I think the prices in LIC are likely to fall a bit - not sure how that will affect the prices for Sunnyside, but I do think the sales in Queensborough Plaza are going to soften...

I'm not saying Sunnyside has the quiet streets of the Upper East Side. Chelsea has its own issues as well, but this is NYC. I think we can all agree that in the past 6 years that we have seen young white professionals moving in, replacing some of the older population going out of state.

QB Plaza is not a good location period. If they spruce it up like they say, then maybe they can get $500 psf. The waterfront should fetch 6-800 psf depending on views and amenities.

I agree that Sunnyside has an influx of young professionals moving in. I don't think graffiti and homeless are unique to Sunnyside, they are however, part of city living. As for Starbucks, Its not about if you enjoy the coffee or not. It is a sign of a neighborhood changing for the better. QB Plaza is about the worst possible location for residential living.

I'm in agreement on all points - I was just saying that I don't think the neighborhood has made enormous changes over the past several years, perhaps incremental. As for Starbucks...I'm not sure it means the neighborhood is getting "better" per se. *Of course* the graffiti and homeless are not unique to Sunny - just that there have been more homeless in the last few months, and I don't know why... As for QB -- the prices they are asking for those developments remain silly, too high. Without some basic sprucing up, I can't see why those apartments are attractive at those prices.

Now, how about our neighbor, Woodside? Any thoughts on where that's going to be heading...

Which part of Woodside? I can think of four parts of Woodside that are distinctly different.

Blooms kicked ass!!!
Did they ever figure out if it was arson?
What's the word on the street?

The reason I said a Starbucks is a sign of a neighborhood changing for the better is due to the fact that these stores due extensive marketing research before opening a store. They make sure there is enough of a demand for their product before outlaying an enormous amount of money. So, if Starbucks choose to open a store in Sunnyside, they must have done resarch to show that the "new demographics" of the neighborhood will buy its product. We all know who buys Starbucks coffee...Young upwardly mobile professionals.

I lived in Sunnyside for 8 years and it was a roller coaster ride. The neighborhood would seem to improve only to revert backwards again every few years. I gave up and sold. I made a nice profit but I visit often and notice that Sunnyside is still basically the same.

That said, I always thought I was on the wrong side of town, south side of QB. I even considered selling and moving to the north side, but ended up moving to Manhattan instead. No regrets.

Sunnyside is an easy commute to midtown. The local brokers' only fault is under-pricing the values there - no lie! One such broker literally laughed in my face when I told her what I wanted for my apartment, then said I'd be lucky to get "X", which ended up being $20K less than my sale price. That's pretty good if you're a buyer!

Kudos to Councilman Eric Gioia who has been active in mobilizing efforts to "clean up" the town!

PS: Yes, Starbucks opened while I was in contract and really made me think twice, though their Chai Tea just doesn't taste the same.

@alanhart - Blooms was awesome, indeed. I don't know what the official word on their demise was. I have a friend who many know, I'll ask.

@newaccount - I'm really not as familiar with the lay of the land in Woodside. Know the areas just abutting Sunnyside best - e.g., Celtic on south side and 51st Street coops on the north side.

@fancygirl - I totally see your point about Starbucks. Sunnyside's a great neighborhood and if things continue to get better I can only see more people liking it as much as we do :-)

@BrokerGirl - Very interested in how you think brokers out here underprice properties. Do you think the location north or south of QB plays into that? How far south of QB were you? Do you think certain areas of Sunnyside are underpriced, specifically? Like Celtic Park, or Berkeley Towers or whatever?

As for WOODSIDE -- I have started a new thread on the topic -- http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/5600-woodside-qns

In my opinion the the Northside of Queens blvd verses the South side could almost be considered 2 different neighborhoods. Definate different feel when you walk thru each area. I know that North of Queens Blvd is considered much more desirable and I agree with that. When I buy it will be on the North side and newer construction

@fancygirl - are there any new developments that you'd be interested (if you were moving today)?

Tandare -There really is not much new right now in Sunnyside. I like the Citiview condos on 44th St but when I started to look they did not have any availability in 1 beds. I did see two different 2 beds that were really nice, but a 2 bed is out of my budget. They have a really nice roof deck with great views of City skyline and it seems to be a well run building. I would seriously consider a 1 bed in that building. There is the construction site on 45th Street that is supposed to be Condos but nothing has happend sinse they took the building down about a year ago. I also heard that condos are being planned for 43rd st and Skillman Ave., but I have no other info on any of those developments as far as floorplans, finished etc. I am only referencing what I know of North of Queens Blvd, which is the only section I would consider buying in.

I did look at the Phenoix a while back just for a point of reference and I did not like that building or its location at all. Are you interested in a condo or co-op? I think I have made up my mind that a condo is the way I will go. Maint and tax abatements make the extra purchase price a wash.

I disagree with a condo as the only option in Sunnyside. The premium paid for a condo already counts you out if you are looking to spend under $300k for a 1 BR. The cost of taxes in a condo building after abatement will creep up on you. 10 years is not a very long time. In other words, the tax abatement you get now is not worth the discount you are getting now. For brand new construction, buyer also pays the transfer taxes, which are about 2-3% of the selling price. Also, most new construction apartments have very low ceilings.

sunnyside listings are generally not available through public outlets. i've been looking to buy there over the last 3-4 months, find a few good local brokers. they don't even have each other's listings! so you gotta meet w/ each of them. kinda a pain, but i've seen some really nice places. if only the prices would come down a bit.

Newaccount-I never said a condo is the only option in Sunnyside. What I said was that "I have made up MY mind that a condo is the way I will go. The tax abatements I have seen in this neighborhood are for 15 years not 10 years. The common charges on a new 1 bed Condo on 44th Street were about $200 and the taxes we about $20. The mainenance is very low compared to a 1 bed co-op, lets face it the co-ops in Sunnside, while they have pre-war charm, are OLD. Old Roofs, Old plumbing, boilers, etc and it costs more to maintain these buildings, Thus the higher maintenance costs and lets not forget the flip-tax and the ever-powerful board watching over your every move. Its just not for me,

As for the lenght of the tax abatement all that does is phase in the taxes over time and in 15years you will be paying probably slightly more than the co-op in the next building. you just get a 15 year reprive. The new construction I have seen has 9 foot ceilings, I would hardly call that low, and as for transfer tax, In this market everything is open for negotiation.

I agree you will not get a new 1 bed condo for under $300. My guess is you would have to pay between $350,000 to $430,000. But if I was looking at under $300,000, I would look at a nice sized studio.

First, let me apologize as I didn't mean to come off so strong on the response. I was just trying to state a more affordable option what would work for some of the other posters here looking to spend under $300k.

I have passed the condo building you're referring to. What layouts fo they have and how much are they asking?

thanks newaccount, I agree we all need some more afordable options! Unfortunately that building does not have any availability now. I did look at it about 6 months ago but they only had a few 2 beds for sale which were out of my budget at over about $500. I did get the info and layouts of the one beds when I looked at the offering plan and I did see one that didn't close yet and it was what I was looking for, but, not available. I really liked the roofdeck and they had a washer/dryer closet in the units which is a luxury in the city. I did hear the same developer is planning another building in the same area but I can't find out any info about it.

Yes, that lot on 45th Street? Absolutely no signs of life there. I've wondered what if anything might happen there at this point, given the financial situation for borrowing money. On 43rd? No information on that.

I've got friends in the area who own pre-war coops and the buildings are in great condition, good upkeep, reasonable maintenance. Don't believe they have a flip tax on their buildings. Maybe other ones have flip-taxes in their coops in the area. Depends on what you like, my own leanings are for a co-op. I'd rather not deal with the tax abatement and worry about the finances of a building when there isn't as much financial screening as there is with a coop -- granted with the current financial situation the world is in this concerns me more than it did 3 months ago. Also I know some condos do have a pre-screen process for finances. I also like old buildings and actually kind of want a handy-man-ish place. I haven't been in the new construction in the area. Phoenix didn't interest me due to location alone, and the Cityview ones I have not seen. What were the finishes like? How were the layouts?

I am a little biased perhaps -- the only new construction we've seen has been in Brooklyn -- and ranged from one fabulous one, a few mediocre and several badly constructed and/or badly designed. Kind of turned me off new construction - maybe unfairly.

As for BLOOMS -- no one I know seems to know whether it was arson or not. Supposedly they were going to reopen.... in Manhattan. But that info was around a few years ago and I don't know what they decided.

lost_newbie -- that's the situation here. Frustrating isn't it? Some brokers do know about other listings, but not many from what I can figure out. Lots of pavement. Good luck! We're in the same boat.

Tandare, If you are handy a pre-war co-op is perfect. You can really make the apartment your own and not be subject to someone elses taste. I can hardly change a light bulb, So new construction is my best bet. That is good to know that some co-ops don't have a flip tax. I heard must do, some more than others. I am not sure but I think the Berkley Towers has like a 20% flip tax. I don't know first hand, It was told to me. Does anyone know if thats true?

As far as new construction, I agree there are good and bad. Pheonix had very cheap finishes and formica countertops(I have never seen that in new construction) and there outdoor space resembled a prision yard. Citiview had great finishes, granite, marble bath and washer/dryer in unit. As for layout the Kitchen, Bathroom, and living areas were very large and the bedrooms were small. I guess everything is a trade off. It had a balcony and very nice lobby and roofdeck. I really liked the location. 44th Street is a nice Street and I like the area between skillman and 43rd ave. Its close enough to Queens blvd for conveinence and far enough away that noise is not a problem. That is why I would love to know what is happening on 45th Street? I just really love that section of Sunnyside.

Lost_newbie - I personally have had horrible experiences with local brokers in Sunnyside. Especially the ones on craigslist. The seem to take bits and pieces of available posts and put them together in one add as if they really have this listing. When you call them on the apt they don't have the one apt they advertised and try and take you to things you've seen with other agents or FSBO. very annoying

Fancygirl - I totally have fixerupper dreams. Sigh.

Oooh if Berkeley has such a high flip that would be a negative to me. I haven't seen an apt listed in there that I'd like to see but I would like to know that detail. Yes, everything is a trade-off - a rooftop area is very appealing to me and a W/D in the apt? Nirvana.

Why am I not surprised that Phoenix is not greatly finished. I felt from the advertising and just walking by that it wouldn't be. Formica is rather retro when you think about it. I am sure someone would love some retro formica - I'm also sure that Phoenix isn't looking for that market. They have been marketing themselves as a Manhattan-style luxury building. I don't get it.

Were the bedrooms doable even if they were small? Can you fit normal furniture in there and still get in the room? Depends on what you want - if you want a larger living space and you like to entertain then that might be more important than bedroom size.

I have been watching 45th street lot for years. Used to be a Jewish temple there, then it was torn down.... and now I just wonder if the people who bought it have the funds to build on it. The area you are talking about is great -- we live in the area and love it.

As for the local brokers -- they seem to operate mostly below the radar - only advertising in their windows (except one notable office that has such old listings in their window that they are completely faded) if at all. I don't get it, but obviously they get properties sold so people use them. I would think that advertising in a wider range of publications would get more buyers in to see the places, right?

My issue with condos is that the rent vs. buy analysis doesn't work out with today's pricing. I'd like to live in a condo too, but a $500k 2 BR has monthlies of about $3k if the maintenance and taxes are extremely low. The rent for that same apartment would be no more than $2,200. I just can't justify paying that much to live in Sunnyside. I consider my apartment a place to live more than an investment. After all, if you're paying rent anyway, you might as well own the place in 30 years. Meanwhile, a $300k 2 BR coop will cost about $2k in monthlies and rent for about $1,700 in today's market. (These numbers don't include tax deductions so the premium for buying vs. renting narrows.)

Personally, I cannot see spending half a million dollars for a 1 or 2 br apt in Sunnyside. It offends my sensibilities.

This may be a junk posting and I am not sure which building it is but.... http://newyork.craigslist.org/que/reo/882050140.html

Tandare-The bedrooms were doable. They had a Queen size bed and a tall narrow dresser rather than a a doublewide lower one. But the living areas were really big in the 2 beds I saw. To me I spend more time in my living areas (awake anyway) so I think that is more important to me. I have seen apts that have very big bedrooms but have a tiny strip kitchen/living room combo and closet like bath. If you don't have an unlimited budget you are going to make trade-offs. My hope is to get most of this items on my wish list.. The local brokers are pretty ancient. We need a good modern broker to open in Sunnyside, anyone interested?

newaccount-Rent on a 2 bed in Cityview is actually $2500 so when you factor in the tax savings, it makes more sense to buy a 2 bed vs rent. I have not seen many 2 bed co-ops selling for $300 most seem to be asking as much as new condos. I haven't looked in the last month, but there are 2 beds that are asking in the $400's and low $500's. I guess they see what the new construction is getting and they are asking just below that. I have also not seen any tru 2 beds renting for $1700. Check out the latest postings on craigslist. The rents have gone nuts in Sunnyside. I see may 2 beds in older buildings that are renovated asking $2500 or $2600 a month for rent. If you do see a 2 bed for $1800, $1900 or even $2000 they are usually railroad rooms or really horrible apartments

Big bedrooms are nice, but for me good layout and nice living space is more important than huge bedrooms. Sounds like the bedrooms were doable then. We saw one memorable new construction in Brooklyn where if you put a full-size bed in the masterbedroom (with bathroom en suite) you could literally not walk around it -- it would only fit in the room in one place due to the placement of doors, stairs and heating unit and yet wasn't big enough for a full-sized bed. What were they thinking?

Yes those rents have gone up recently. I think people see the **asking** prices at condos (which doesn't mean that's what the buyers or tenants are actually paying) and think that they should get the same. Actually find it a bit depressing. Well, folks, thanks for the chat tonight.