Interesting example of the current market

Tiananmen protests were a peaceful protest led by pro democracy students. It has nothing in common with looting stores and attacking police with Molotov cocktails. Please don't confuse the two

@knewbie - A former colleague of mine consulted for US news organizations covering Tiananmen. His screen name on various sites was “niubi,” a play on words in Chinese pronounced exactly as your screen name is pronounced in English.

I am glad some one is threatening action against rioting as De Blasio is just sending his daughter to join the unruly mob and told police to go easy on property destruction. Naturally anger on George Floyd's murder is justified but it needs to be expressed as peaceful socially distanced protests.

@knewbie,
The protestors in front of the White House were peaceful, but the police fired tear gas and rubber bullets.
Are you inferring that since these protests are looting then military force would be acceptable.

When someone gets murdered in cold blood, is that not worse than looting? Is that not a violation of the rule of law?

Correction: protests is protestors

@streetsmart - If they don’t see it, no comment on any Internet Forum will sway them.

@MCR,
Thank you, appreciate your reminder.

mcr, I saw looting, store front damaging, and burning police vehicles first hand in Union Square area including university place with police not doing any thing and one of them confided that they have been told to be gentle. I guess you have to see it.

Streetsmart, you mentioned Tiananmen. From your comment , its obvious you know very little about the motivations and what actually took place there. It degrades the tragedy that took place there and the cause for what those Democracy protesters fought for. They have no elections there. It is an actual authoritarian government . As much as you may think democracy is in shambles here, you can always go vote for people whom you believe will set things right. In China, if you disagree with the government, you disappear in the middle of the night. Not like here where you go on CNN as hero of the day.

MCR...if its not there, no amount of repeating it will make it appear.

and mcr, your property, neighbors and family was not in danger!! Mine was.

Everything is getting very similar to 18th century France. What we're seeing beyond the brutality aspect is a larger version of the Occupy movement. Once evictions start up again and people run out of cash it will get much worse.

@knewbie - Touche, but agree to disagree.
@300_mercer - It’s not my first rodeo. I’ve seen it. Listen to interview of Joni Mitchell discussing her inspiration for writing “Both Sides Now.”

mcr, Do tell when you were in the middle of rioting and your safety was potentially endangered.

I was in Paris last spring and watched les gilets jaunes pass by my window. I also was living in Paris when the first Iraq war broke out. Finally, I am from Detroit, which sadly has been in a perpetual lock down since the riots of the late 60’s despite the fact that I don’t think there has been a real threat in my lifetime.

Thanks for sharing the incidents. I was in Middle East during Saddam terror days and saw damage in Kuwait first hand. That is very different from police standing by with instructions to be gentle.

stache,
With the moratorium and extension on evictions I think there are a substantial amount of tenants who will have dug themselves into holes they can't get out of by August 20th. If just 5% end up being evicted (which if there is no rent relief I think is on the low side) it would be something like 10X the total number of evictions for 2017, would have 300% of the current homeless population newly out on the street, etc. I could easily see 10X the number of the entire NYPD force needing to be removed from apartments. If they decide to resist, how does that work? And where would you put them even if you could arrest them?

@300_mercer - I applaud the order to have police exercise restraint. I do believe the country is ready to blow, and that direction is not coming from any desire to be soft on crime.

We are different. I believe that rioters should be firmly dealt with. That is why I think Trump's threat (I think it is empty) to send the army sends a message to local socialist mayors that they need to prevent rioting.

Cuomo probably would not have woken up and declared a 11pm curfew without the morning governor's call.

mcr,

Do you really support this behavior from an ivy league educated lawyer?

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-molotov-nypd-brooklyn-lawyers-charged-20200531-nxamwxnjmzgvzmczi6z2ypcbzi-story.html

I believe in picking one’s battles. I think taking a stand to stop the random looters in Soho would be short-sighted, but I recognize reasonable minds can disagree. I do not pretend to be omniscient, and I have no more information than anyone else who is watching current events unfold.

Perhaps we will see him soon on CNN!!

mcr, You should ask the shop owners what they think rather than pontificate from the safety of your home.

@300_mercer - Who are these “shop owners” in Soho? Mom and Pop? Genuinely curious because that is not my neighborhood, but from what has been discussed quite a bit in multiple threads here, I am under the impression that those “shops” that have been hit are flagship stores of brands that might not be entirely innocent?

It was not just a week ago that people thought townhouses would be the next big thing for outdoor space and to avoid covid. Now it turns out a mob with crowbars can pretty easily burst inside and light the place ablaze while stealing everything, and cops won't do squat to stop it. Suddenly big doorman buildings look good again.

And re those Ivy League educated lawyers, it was precisely such lawyers and colleagues who further opened my eyes after first being awakened by working in a country where I was treated in a way rhat I’ve never been treated in the United States.

George,
What did I say like a week ago about townhouses and rising crime?

Even Chris Cuomo criticizing the lawyers with Molotov Cocktails.

Chris Cuomo has never been out of his bubble. Nice guy, but not someone I’d look to for guidance on anything. But back to “shop owners,” I suspect Gucci and Best Buy not only will survive, but have already priced in the losses they are sustaining from the looting (as distinct from the losses they are sustaining as a result of Covid).

Mcr, You should write a check to Ribalta restaurant owners for broken window. They are an Italian family. And write a check to numerous small businesses in similar situations. And why so much hatred for big retail businesses despite your claiming not to be a socialist? They provide jobs to low income people in retail and many of these jobs will not come back a little longer.

30 - I interpreted that in the context of garden variety street crime like muggings. Organized riots are different and far more serious. Feels like TH owners should board up. Even guns won't stop a rock followed by a molotov cocktail.

George, Fortunately, it will be over in the next few days. I see better law enforcement today but clearly it needs to be a lot better.

George,
Do you think looting will go on for years at this level?

The yellow vests in Paris were a problem for a solid 6 mos, though the first riot on Dec 1st was the worst. As in Paris, the grievances of the US protesters won't go away any time soon. If Trump is reelected, they could easily go wild again. If people are again locked down bc covid returns, this might be just the warm-up act. I think the most likely scenario is that this fizzles like every attempt at gun control after a mass shooting, but there are realistic scenarios that look more like the 1960s.

I think if this goes on for more than a month NYC Real Estate is f*cked. Probably even if it doesn't at this point. How do you convince any retailer to pay these rents under such conditions? And if retail dies how does anything else come back? And if people are scared of Manhattan, you should hear the stories that I am from The Bronx. It's turning back to The Bonfire of the Vanities.

300_mercer - I don’t hate big retail at all. I am just being realistic about how much they are damaged by actual looting. As for broken windows of shop owners, their insurance will cover it. The real problem that I see is our failure to address the systemic issues that are culminating in violence. I don’t condone the violence at all, but that does not mean I cannot understand it.

The systemic issues have already been addressed by laws that were hard fought for. It's changing people's hearts that is the difficult part.

I'm not sure that this is going to change anyone's mind on how they see current events, but ICYMI, here's a resonant Trevor Noah piece on George Floyd and the protests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4amCfVbA_c

https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-policing-saves-black-lives-11591052916?mod=hp_opin_pos_2

Poor business owners are stuck with paying insurance deductible and higher insurance payments in the future. If they survive, they will lay off some low paid people.

And how many jobs will be lost in Macy's due to delay in opening? It is organized thugs who are looting and hiding behind peaceful protesters whose anger is justified.

@300_mercer - That is the cost of doing business in a society that does not apply its rules in a nondiscriminatory manner.

Yes. Screw the low income jobs - big percentage black - even more. Those are the final sufferers from rioting while other un-impacted people feel less guilty that they let thugs express their anger.

300 - I thought exactly along the lines that you do for a large part of my life. Then I saw some things that I can never unsee. I can tell you are very angry about the violence hitting so close to home. What was your reaction to the George Floyd and Amad Arbury (sp?) videos? Was it as deep and did it last as long? Can’t we feel for all parties, looters and businesses? Why do we have to choose sides when all are victims of a broken system? Why can’t we step back and say “how did we get here?”

I saw those videos and I am angry about them. I am equally angry about police not preventing looting. They have to do it now and have started to take action against looters - if they started early, it wouldn't have gotten to this level. And if the local govts let this happen any longer, it will get Trump relelected.

And If I am angry, am I going to De Blasio' townhouse in Park Slope and doing something to it? No. Nor is any of the suffering business owners.

The excerpt below from WSJ article says it all about how police inaction and how local democrats care about safety of their community.

——-
New York City Councilman Ritchie Torres, a Bronx Democrat who represents a portion of a commercial corridor on Fordham Road, said the area was the scene of “widespread” looting and street fires early Tuesday morning.

“It felt to me like the looters were given free rein,” he said in an interview. “I’m not clear why the situation persisted as long as it did.”

Mr. de Blasio traveled to the area in the Bronx Tuesday morning and said on Twitter that the NYPD was dispatching more resources. The mayor said in a Monday night interview with local television NY1 that the city’s curfew would continue on Tuesday, but would start at 8 p.m.

Mr. Torres said the NYPD and the mayor’s office “should have been prepared for the looting, and property destruction.” A spokeswoman for the mayor said the city sent police officers and top NYPD officials to the Bronx at the first sign of problems.

Then mayor of Minn is a progressive Dem. 13 of 14 council members are progressive Dems (the 14th is a green party member). The police chief is black. What exactly is going on in racist Minn ? And if its systematic as everyone says, why is the system full of Dem progressives yet still racist ?

In reality, its police brutality. You change it by taking on the police unions. You change it by removing the doctrine that police have used to protect themselves..."qualified immunity". In a democracy we have real power, you vote out the bums who are responsible.

The wealthy really are not affected by the looting and violence. As usual its the very same people who are victims of police brutality who take the hardest hit. Justifying it is ridiculous at best.

Undertstanding does not equal justifying. It sounds to me like many do not understand how anyone could ever be so disenfranchised as to resort to violence and stealing. That Trevor Noah video that Ali posted makes all the sense in the world to me.

Yes Princeton Lawyer should have set himself up on fire if he is so angry despite getting an education from the finest institutes and having a well paying job.

knewbie, And Keith Ellison is AG.

@300_mercer - Talk to me after you have been treated in a certain way every day of your life despite your best efforts to assimilate. Have you ever taken a road trip in the Southeastern U.S.? An Indian American friend of mine had a long-planned trip with his college friends down to New Orleans in the fall of 2001. He and his friends are Ivy League educated, born and raised in New York. He worked in finance out of college, but was working in a cleared position for USG in the fall of 2001. He and his friends came back from the trip with very different perspectives than they had before the trip. Four Indian American successful business men in their late 20’s were treated with suspicion everywhere they went and were shocked that anyone would mistake them for possible extremist terrorists. I can’t imagine how that would feel, but if I was treated that way every day of my life, I suspect I would have little regard for the norms set by those who treated me that way.

From a liberal democrat:

“They have no right to wrap themselves in the flag of righteous indignation of Mr. Floyd’s murder,” said Cuomo.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/gov-cuomo-de-blasio-nypd-failed-to-protect-nyc-from-looters/

@300_mercer - Why do you keep invoking party names? This is a human issue where perspectives will vary within the same political party. Not everything is partisan.

Btw - I respect your preference for a shoot-out as long as you understand and don’t complain about the chances that you might be taken down in the cross-fire. Again, I am not omniscient, but I favor all efforts to diffuse tensions rather than escalate them.

I am not here to discuss my ideology but to discuss the rule of law as it relates to real estate in NYC. What Cuomo said clearly sends message that looting is not ok and he is elected Governor not Rush Limbaugh.

Your point would be better taken had you focused on his being governor in your post; instead you chose for some reason to identify him as Liberal Democrat. Why

Re rule of law, it is in serious jeopardy at the highest level of government and that is going to adversely affect NY real estate; just my opinion!

mcr, How much time have you spent in the city in the last 3 months to have enough stake in what is happening in the city?

Of course, any one can express their opinion.

As I am free to call Cuomo a liberal Democrat.

10 whole days!

When a young person reaches a point where they don’t even have the illusion of some kind of decent or fulling life, they at that point have nothing left to lose. It seems to me that a lot of these people fit this description and that is bad for us all.

The GOP and the Democratic Party used to have their own ideas as to how to placate the poor. But in the last 40 years the GOP have escalated their agenda to rolling back the clock to pre FDR and in the process they have become egregiously dangerous.

Mcr, I am glad that we both were able to express our opinions.

Yes, that is what discussion is all about. Disagreement does not make me uncomfortable, and I don’t take it personally. I also genuinely find others’ thoughts and perspectives interesting.

I feel the same way.

There is just so far you can push people and with the Rubicon in sight I'm not so sure the solution is "more pushing."

30, I am being thick and missed what you are saying.

I witnessed the following at my favorite neighborhood diner and it broke my heart: Young African American male came in wearing a suit and told the cashier he was there to apply for the open position. Cashier got the manager, who told the young man the position had been filled. The young man thanked him and left. Five minutes later, another young man of the same ethnicity as the majority of the visible diner staff came in and said he was there to apply for the open position. Cashier handed him a clipboard and said the manager would come out and interview him as soon as he finished filling out the application. I do believe some people cannot catch a break despite their best efforts, and if the system both shuts you out and also abuses people who look like you with impunity, I get why you give up on the system. I am afraid society has already pushed too far, and I am afraid that one gun shot would amount to crossing the Rubicon.

Well I'm seeing a lot of kids with absolutely no home training and I have been looking at the same cycle for the last 45 years in the three largest towns in this country plus SFO. Yes I get it they are disenfranchised and yes I have been on the receiving end of cop mentality and it is NOT CUTE but you have to wonder why there is so little effort put into attaining a goddamn totally free high school graduation certificate from a certain segment. PBS ran a show about inmates getting college degrees and it opened my eyes/explained how this class/segment can be TOTALLY UNAWARE of opportunities available to ALL PEOPLE IN THE USA. Compare to Asian culture where the parents may be poor but they are BREATHING DOWN THE NECKS of their kids to study and get ahead. I'm not seeing any kind of push from local churches for example to try to show these young people a better way. I had a home care nurse for seven years that was born and educated in Cameroon and she said when she moved here it took her quite a bit of getting used to the thought process/way of life of many people of color here. It was interesting to get that perspective from her.

30, Policing is far better tonight. Not sure there was Rubicon to be crossed. All that way needed was Trump to mention military which woke up Cuomo and he kicked De Blas today by mentioning "displace".

And I am staying out of racial debate which belongs better other chat boards.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/paris-protest-george-floyd-adama-traore/2020/06/02/5ceaa464-a505-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html

I am a bit more hopeful. I think one day, and this is a stretch, if we are able to get past our inbred racism and hatred of other races, we will have a black president. Or maybe, in light of all the injustice.. even a black supreme court justice, wow, I am really pushing it there. Maybe then we will be able to move forward. Until then , our tendency to predict disaster and doom for our amazing country is well founded.

stache,
Because many religious organizations are only interested in keeping the existing power structure. Look at some Orthodox Jewish sects - I think you'll find that most Jewish parents fit your description of Asians, yet in some of these sects the Yeshivas refuse to teach the state mandated secular requirements.

Yes that is relevant and also rampant with the home schooling crowd.

MCR I don't exactly see how that's the 'system'? That's a racist owner of a diner, that's why I say it's not so much the system we need to change, its people's hearts. And that's far more difficult to change.

We have a system of laws that provides for the equal treatment of all. Unfortunately in many cases it's the gatekeepers that prevent equal justice from being done.

Keith
TBG

There's a lot of discussion here about how people feel about whether the looting and violence is justified, or correct.

In his article on the response to the Coronavirus, Benjamin Studebaker draws a distinction between the *political* (i.e., the responsibility of the state), and the *moral* (i.e., the responsibility of the individual). He points out: "Because liberal states draw a line between public and private, between politics and morality, they can depoliticise issues by moralising them, by pushing them into the private sphere. In this way, the liberal state avoids collective responsibility for conditions, instead pushing its citizens to take personal responsibility for them."

"When we fight among ourselves, we pose no threat to the state. Making an issue that could be political into a cultural question about morality and aesthetics enables the state to kick it into the long grass. The louder we fight with each other, the less the state hears us. By the time the state returns to the conversation, we are so exhausted by the fight that its offer of law and order becomes seductive. The state is able to buy our compliance by offering us the bare minimum of security against one another. "

Highly recommended:
https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2020/05/31/coronavirus-rioting-and-the-privatization-of-morality/

Aaron2 - Good essay. I also recommend his “Hate the Rioting, but Love the Rioters” that he wrote in response to the Freddy Gray riots in Baltimore in 2015.

We live in a society where you can’t have a winner without a loser.
Think of a poker game or any competition game.
There are only so many jobs and there is still not an infrastructure plan. Obama joked about the fact that his planned shovel ready jobs didn’t exist. He lives around the corner from Ivanka. Even Cornel West said on TV the other night something to the extent that he failed the blacks.

Trump won because of racism. He proved that people will vote for him because he is in fact a racist even if it’s against their economic interest.

wait, did someone really say this:
"I saw those videos and I am angry about them. I am equally angry about police not preventing looting. "

Equally?

@streetsmart - I hear dog whistles because I was raised by wolves. The vast majority of people with whom I grew up genuinely do not see any racism in Trump. They will say “That’s not racist because I think that too, and I’m certainly not racist.” They cannot even entertain the possibility that they might be racist themselves.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-the-looting-ruins-11591313813?mod=opinion_lead_pos3

https://nypost.com/2020/06/04/black-storeowner-rips-looters-for-destroying-her-nyc-shop/

In a clash between two groups of looters, one looter was shot in the ass by a member of the other group (NB shooting in the ass is a long standing gang practice for inter-gang beefs which are warnings for offences which don't rise to the level of killing someone over)

https://nypost.com/2020/06/01/alleged-looter-at-george-floyd-protest-in-soho-shot-by-fellow-looters/

Reminds me of about 20 years ago I was at this underground strip club called 243 on Flatbush and Myrtle, we heard "pop, pop, pop" and then someone yelling that Peanut got shot in the ass. Apparently she had beef with another stripper. The next time I saw her she had a big dimple in one of her cheeks.

This is what is on that site today:
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-eagle

Gotta say 30 you are ALL OVER the map!

That's what I love about him.

You lost me at underground strip club on Flatbush...lol.

Between that and the Manhole in Meatpacking we have a connoisseur of louche living!

https://youtu.be/_yqOBuQRwOU

That is very very funny 30!

56 Cooper Square PH52

BOT $15,500,000 7/23/2015

https://streeteasy.com/closing/10307846

Signed contract last week at "less than 5% off" the last asking price of $9,999,999. So around 38% off peak pricing?
https://streeteasy.com/building/carl-fischer-building/ph52