How Much Do You Think These Go For

Absolutely, Paul. Just shoot me an email and I can send you a document that outlines our business model for buyers. keithattheburkhardtgroup.com

These are exactly the kind of shtick drek that *IF* the market craps out really take it on the chin.

This is not an area of the market I've paid a lot of attention to, but I'm curious how they end up priced this way relative to say UWS, rest of UES, or even where I am in North Brooklyn.

I had completely overlooked co-ops when I was BK condo shopping due to down payment / post close liquidity hurdles I didn't expect to be able to meet. That said, these are basically cheaper than my WB condo, by a lot.

Is it -
Co-ops wanting 25% down
Some high, undisclosed in listing liquidity requirements or difficult boards?
Low ceilings
Dated floors
Dated kitchens needing reno
Dated baths some might want to Reno
Location being too far east meaning not a lot of green space access

In any case, I could see the category ticking some boxes for me - closer to office when I have to go in / easier to get out of the city than from Brooklyn / OK monthlies for Manhattan / not $2-3M

@30yrs: Well, they're the ordinary 1960s buildings that were built as quickie rentals, not sales, by developers with fair to middling standards and an expectation of turnover. As rentals, the developers weren't looking for luxe finishes and fittings, so most things original from that time will need replacement.

This is my neighborhood (Lenox Hill) and around my target price range when I play with wanting more space. Both buildings cited are a bit too far east for my taste, and I think there are better buildings both westward, and in the 5-7 blocks south of 57th St (say btw Lex & the river).

For some examples: 110 East 57th St (you just missed 6FG, but there's 9E, 2br/2ba, full reno needed and laughably small kitchen, but relatively low maint; or you could probably make an offer on 17D.)

150 E 69th (Imperial House, a luxe 1960 rental when built) may be a financial stretch, but the apartments are big, and the maintenace, for a very full service building (elevator operators!), is not bonkers. (see 7C, lots of closets, and a good sized kitchen; or you could reconfigure 6L - the current layout is an abomination; or 20J).

If you've loving that 60-70s vibe, 139 E 63rd may also be an option (nothing there at the moment though). Also 118 East 60th (borderline your price range, e.g., 33G)

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I dont love the 60s parquet floor look, but lets see if some classic fives or sixes come in near budget which also have layouts which easily make 3 BRs (avoiding BRs below ~9 ft dimensions or below ~120 sq ft.). Some of the apartments Aaron mentioned are nice but dont have obvious 3 bed layouts.

I agree that closer to the park would be nice, but at this price it seems the east 60s have better schools than the 90s and the 70s and lower 80s are mostly out of budget. Lets see is some amazing prime UES or UWS comes to market below $1.5 in coming weeks.

I am pretty cheap and am shopping well below what I could get approved. With seven figure liquidity looking at places in the $1.3 million range, perhaps knowing which buildings have 50% down requirements and tough boards would work in my favor.

If Keith's your broker, he can point you to specific buildings rather than me doing it, but in general, raising your price point and lowering your monthly maintenance (while still staying within the same monthly nut) will probably, to add on to 30s comment, insulate you a little better if there's a downturn.

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

If you're a value-centric guy with lots of liquidity who intends to stay put for a decade or more, then you should prioritize low monthlies over trying to catch the bottom of the price trend. Over long periods, NYC's insane tax differentials will swamp most other financial factors. So make aggressive offers in low-tax buildings, finance <50%, and you'll be super well positioned for whatever comes next.

(This is the same market segment I convinced myself I should be shopping for. Then I turned around & bought a quirky unit in a rusty old high-tax building. Do as my spreadsheets say, not as I actually do.)

A few alternative ideas that reflect your stated $1.2M range:

https://streeteasy.com/building/38-east-85-street-new_york/4e - $908/mo - make the dining room a kids bed

https://streeteasy.com/building/the-morellino/3e - $1857/mo - native 3br, been on market forever, maybe they're finally ready to chop?

https://streeteasy.com/building/66-frankfort-street-new_york/5j - $1100/mo - native 3br, just missed this unit but there are a few others listed (most of which need reno and/or lack terrace, so bid accordingly)

(Why do brokers always upload postage stamps in place of legible floor plans? Would it be that hard to export at 1000px instead of 100px?)

I find there's a real dearth of convertible 2s that would make a 3br that I would actually want to live in, particularly if the space is to be an actual BR. Just because somebody can draw a line on a floorplan and Photoshop in a wall does not make it a good aesthetic decision (looking at you, apt 12F). Turning that unit into a 3BR will certainly keep it in 30yrs' 'shtick drek' category. 12F's small saving grace is indeed that dining L with windows on 2 sides.

If you're looking for a 3 BR, then focus on real 3BRs, and be pleasantly surprised if a good convertible comes along. If you want the space for an office, then you have more options (the DRs in older buildings can make great offices). If you want a rabbit warren, go buy some hutches.

Just make sure you look over the last couple of cycles local law facade reports for these old brick behemoths .

As each cycle gets more and more intrusive, the work gets more frequent and expensive.
If every year your building ends up with $1mm + worth of work every 5 years, you have to amortize that into your yearly cost factor of owning.

And of course local law 97 energy efficiency for buildings over 25,000 sq ft

Thank you Ali, I am using Keith but I deeply respect your opinion. Interesting observation on price vs. monthlies.

Richard - I hear you on the “do what I say not what I do” angle. I am not worried about overspending my budget - we are cheap to the core. However I thought this would be a dollars per sqft exercise but now I want to see E 85th to try to make that work. Small but what a location. $1000 monthlies weren't in my mental possibility space before you posted this.

Aaron - understand the space concerns. Four of us are currently living in <800 sqft in Queens. Working so far. I am aware it may be a different story when the kids are not one and four.

You have to give some type of "stick to your guns" credit to an agent who still leads with "rarely available" on a >500 day old listing (and where essentially the same unit on a higher floor sold within that time).

As a larger NYC area investor has told me for over 30 years "You buy crap, you own crap."

At least the one on the market 500+ days has 2 full baths, vs the others, which have only 1-1/2 baths.

Pity he who sleeps in 4E's former dining room and has to go through somebody else's bedroom to have a bath/shower. I don't think everybody has to have their own personal bathroom (unlike most developers), but that conversion for a family of 4 is particularly poor. Looks like a recipe for a long future of intra-family resentment and hostility. (and a 1/2 bath off the MBR @ Frankfort? 6J has the same, so must have been some personality quirk of the developer's architect, or were plumbing fixtures in short supply at the time?)

To 30_yrs comment, these are not units that a family could readily grow into, and thus are not really going to be accretive to wealth in the long run - one will need to move long before realizing reasonable gains.

Re:66 Frankfort perhaps it's a Mitchell-Lama thing as I have seen that Primary-bedroom-with-ensuite-half-bath in others as well.

It looks like 4E just went into contract. I agree that the bathroom situation is abysmal, but understand the appeal of PS6 which is why a family would try. I guess it would be ideal for a single-child family. I wanted to look at it just to confirm it wouldn't be possible.

I have kept my eye on this W86 st. unit as far as smaller sized options go. It is sitting and based on past sales in the building the ask price is $100-200k rich. $1.3 million doesn't seem realistic for a unit which my napkin math sizes at around 900 sqft. (all the floorplans in the building lie and say 1100). The layout is probably the best you can do with that space, unlike the unit above. The most recent renovation was a couple of owners ago, but I think I could live with it without putting to much more money in right away.
https://streeteasy.com/building/309-west-86-street-new_york/6a?card=1

The problem with 500+ days on market unit is that it is firmly in central Harlem. I would just stay in Queens if those are my options.

While the Frankfort unit is gone, here is a current 3BR listing sitting in Southbridge Towers. I would have to get my wife over living in an asbestos building and this is a required renovation.
https://streeteasy.com/building/80-gold-street-new_york/3b

Forgot to add regarding W86: $1.3 million is also rich for a unit that couldn't rent for 6k last year.

I think I've given this advice before and nobody listens but WTF. The best deals aren't just sitting around for you to pick them up like a $20 bill laying on the sidewalk that 50 other people walked by. You have to make them one way or the other. And while I'm not going to tell you how to find properties because that's proprietary information, you can certainly figure out how to make offers on things which are asking too much. Making offers doesn't cost a cent and if your representation knows what they are doing they can both guide you and make deals happen. Which is worth more to you:
Getting the break you want on price or getting a rebate on a commission?

@30yrs: "The best deals aren't just sitting around..."

Oh, for the days when prospective buyers and agents talked to doormen and supers to find out which widows were still feeling a bit under the weather...

@Woodside: And now asbestos considerations? Practically every residential building in NYC has asbestos, and if they don't their neighbor does.

You need to strongly rank your priorities and decide what is an absolute must/must not have. Sprogs can only go to a top school? Go private, or look only in the top district & live with what you find. Religious/artistic requirement to have only 800 sq ft and 1 bath for 5 people? Sign the family up for therapy and stop pretending that a 1/2 bath doesn't violate scripture/aesthetic theory. It's the lack of prioritization that has you looking at places all over town, with no clear motive to pick one over the other. If everything is equal, then anything will do. Check w/ Mouse as to how that has worked out so far.

⬆️ this

I suspect woodside has a spreadsheet to evaluate carry, kid's school, commute, square footage, bathrooms, bedrooms, floor, light of course comps.

Mouse wanted to live high-roller style with private schools, daily take outs, car, weekend trip etc but was getting a sticker shock. Woodside seems to be very realistic.

Give the man a break. He’s never lived in Manhattan, is budget-constrained, and is trying to figure out what matters to him before committing for a decade.

Doesn't that make him the perfect candidate for renting first? Especially given today's landscape of higher mortgage rates, higher risk free investment rates, potentially falling sales prices and a bit of weakness in the rental market? And if it turns out he makes a mistake choosing, what's the cost/penalty?

Just his transaction costs in and out would pay a full year of rent in whatever he's considering.

For example, if he coughed up $7k/month for something like this:
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-wellesley/9k?featured=1

Seems like it would be kind of a wash with the stuff he posted at the top of the thread between interest on $500k parked, $700k mortgage, and monthly maintenance.

I don’t disagree, but it feels like he’s just trying to get his feet wet a little.

A lot of people would probably be better served simply renting for the handful of years that school zoning matters, if they were completely economically driven, and no other reason to want to live in said hood, and had no emotions about housing. Move in outside of summer for better deals & sign rolling 2 year leases like I did to minimize volatility, probably only stay for 2 renewals, what's the worst that happens. Probably a good chunk of condo HODLers who won't be able to get their asking price for years who are now forced landlords.

Maybe it's just the photos, but that rental at The Wellesley is quite sad. Especially after 142 days on the market, must look sad IRL. My life has been a balance of enjoyable consumption and economic thriftiness. I don't want to be the richest guy in the graveyard (don't want to be the poorest either).

If it's going to be a wash, I plan to be there 12+ years, I'll buy if I can do so comfortably. And continue to invest my money appropriately. But that's me, maybe doesn't work for everyone... And that's ok.

SALE PRICE
$1,200,000
DOWN PAYMENT
$600,000
(50.0%)
$300,000 Minimum (25.0%)
INTEREST RATE
5.5
TERM

30 Years
MORTGAGE AMOUNT $600,000
MORTGAGE PAYMENT $3,407
MAINTENANCE
$3,690
EST. MONTHLY PAYMENT $7,097

This is another user with the handle woodside. Like woodsidepaul, I always dreamed to move to Manhattan when I have enough money saved.

I'm offering what my thoughts and my journal on buying the 3 bedroom 2 bath apartment.

Since the pandemic, I have worked from home and there is no need for me to commute to the Manhattan office anymore. A Manhattan home is not appealing to me anymore. The monthly cost of a home in queens (mortgage with 20% down and maintenance fee/property tax) is probably only half of that in Manhattan for the same size. Especially for a good size 3 bedroom 2 bathroom apartment.

In terms of school districts, Queens has some good districts (Forest Hills and Bayside coming to mind) on par with the UES. Jackson Heights is another option with good housing stock and a private school in the neighborhood, though the public school district is OK, but not as good as Forest Hills and Bayside. Since most people will go to the Manhattan office at most three times a week , the commute from Bayside (near LIRR) will not be bad.

For myself, at the beginning of 2021, I finally bought a forever home (a three-bedroom two bathroom apartment) in Jackson Heights historic garden district that has a total monthly cost (the mortgage with 20% Down, at a 3% interest rate, and COOP maintenance) of about $4000. For the same size apartment in Manhattan, the monthly maintenance cost itself is already at least $3000.

Jackson Heights Historic district has always been a bit of a hidden gem. Congratulations on your purchase!

Congrats, great area and I have a few friends there.
Nice space, good amount of greenery, great access to food, etc.

I love JH! (My only slam would be that a lot of the buildings don't allow dogs.) Congrats!

If you need the convertible bedroom for a child, then I'd stay away from 14B simply because that room has direct access (and is the only access) to the balcony. Balconies and unsupervised kids = bad idea.

^^Oh wait, never mind. I looked at the floorplan incorrectly. Carry on.

I went to Bayside public schools. From what I understand they used to be better (especially Cardozo HS which when I went was one of the top in NYC).

I'm sure some are going to disagree but in my opinion that 26 block "Open Street" has negatively impacted Jackson Heights. One of my business partners families has owned buildings there for decades (his father owned a real estate office in JH) and I know a bunch of people who live there long term and they all feel the same way. There's been a noticable uptick on Asian storefront brothels on Roosevelt Avenue since they got pushed out of Downtown Flushing. While the neighborhood lost Pearson's BBQ (perhaps the best in New York at the time) it still has one of the most diverse dining scenes in NYC (I recently posted a video about taco trucks/spots on Roosey).

I don't know currently but many of the Gardens Coops had reputations for being relatively "fussy" vs the price points of the units in the past. And while I don't think it's going to actually happen any time soon (for reasons I've discussed elsewhere) *IF* NYC was to actually go through with any kind of Real Estate Tax reform/rebalancing they would probably be one of the losers and see substantial increases in taxes and thus maintenance.

PS I also think the current mortgage rate environment might make it difficult for some of the pricier units (close to or above 7 figures) to maintain previous prices like this one:
https://streeteasy.com/building/33_39-80-street-jackson_heights/1

I am currently living in Sunnyside Gardens and our son goes the Garden School in Jackson Heights for 3-K. The public schools in JH and Sunnyside weren't up to our wishes and we would rather pay maintenance than 2x private school tuition. We also view Manhattan as a lifestyle choice which is separate from needing to be near work - although Queens is also underrated relative to the burbs.

@keith @front_porch @steve123 Thank you

@30yrs_RE_20_in_REO RE: school districts in Bayside, most people are concerned about zoned elementary and middle schools as high schools are more in the game of the screened schools. PS188Q, PS203Q are top elementary schools. I'm not sure if the middle school as I haven't done much research yet.

RE: https://streeteasy.com/building/33_39-80-street-jackson_heights/1 The current listing in Jackson Heights is very limited. I wouldn't buy this apartment by myself even at a 3% interest rate due to being on the first floor and also the third bedroom being small and also a little bit overpriced. Two years ago, there were better apartments (higher floors and the third bedroom is much bigger) and also much more apartments on sale with a much more reasonable price (between 700K and 900K), of course with a 3% interest rate.

It seemed there were no more good deals that can be found in Jackson Heights anymore. Forest Hills seems to still have had some good size 3 bedroom 2bathroom apartments with much more reasonable prices on the market. Not sure if it's a good time to buy now with the current high-interest rate or wait for the price to come down.

RE: open streets in Jackson Heights. It definitely hurts the people with cars and it creates local traffic congestion. For many people, especially with kids, the open street definitely gives some space to exercise/explore. I live about one block away from the open street. Not sure how the quality of life is for the people living next to the open street has been affected.

@WoodsidePaul Understand Manhattan's attraction as a lifestyle choice. Sunnyside has a good G&T program. The G&T in Quees is much less competitive than UES, and it is much easier to get in. There is also a top middle school PS122, of course, you have to test in. This is the same as many top schools in the UES you have to test in. Yes, the choice of home and school district is very personal, depending on each person's income and networth and different priorities. Wish you good luck in finding your dream home in UES.

Re: Open Streets comments:

Attendees at CB8 meetings over the last few months will have heard an earful or two from local residents on the perceived abuses of the OS program by some entities. In theory it's great, in practice, it can be hell for the residents of the street. There's a reason that people live on quiet side streets.

@ FP: "(My only slam would be that a lot of the buildings don't allow dogs.)" Given the legal changes, that restriction is pretty much unenforceable. My building, which has been a 'no pets' building for decades now seems to get regular deliveries of dog food and pee pads (saw 2 packages just now on my way past the front desk).

There's a growing backlash against the TransAlt cult. They seem much bigger than they are because they have been very good at social media messaging and lobbying, even capture of government agencies like NYCDOT. But when the less than 1% of NYers who commute by bicycle are calling the 45% of families which own cars "the minority," push for not only removing street parking but off-street parking as well, closing miles of streets that mostly go unused when there are parks nearby (and disabled are denied access to transport+ emergency vehicles can't reach their destination) the actual "silent majority" has started to awaken and push back. Jackson Heights, Berry Street and others now have community organizations for that purpose. Recently TransAlt to a false flag attack on opponents trying to insinuate opponents of the "Open Street" were homophobic/racist. They have taken some pages out of famous propagandist playbook.

30, NYCDOT is fully controlled by Transalt or whatever antitraffic movement that it. Many people in DOT are specifically hired for positions to study and implement “open streets”. So unfortunately nothing will happen as the 1 percent is far more vocal. Wide previously four lane 14 street is empty where as near by now one lane (after bike lane reduced 2 lanes to 1) streets are jammed. And the same traffic free generation orders deliveries the most. It is not going to change.

300,
It's nice to find a subject we mostly agree on.

Re:14th St busway -
While being touted ad a huge success it is an amazing waste of resources by NYC. The entire concept of all the 2-way crosstown streets is to alleviate traffic from the "quiet" small side streets. The busway has been terrible for the retailers on 14th St. Even both Popeyes and Dairy Queen closed due to this (NB I had spoken to the owners/manger of both several times and they both pointed out that the busway had killed their business). Yet whenever I mention this on social media I get shouted down by TransAlt lackies saying things like "Nobody drove to shop on 14th Street." This is quite ironic since I regularly drove to make purchases at both the Popeyes and the Dairy Queen and the thing which stopped me was when parking became untenable.

They also widely claim there is no increased traffic on the other side streets and back it up with alleged "studies" by their cohorts. Not only is this physically impossible if you believe in the law of conservation of mass (lol) but I've released multiple videos on social media showing 14th Street empty and 13th Street being totally congested. I'm sure you have become acutely aware that the intersection of University Place and 13th Street has become a total shit show due to a street redesign which expressly caused it.

And don't get me started with Citibike docks , restaurant sheds and bike lanes.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw_TSqgH4z/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cjtlb8pg4a5/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CgnH1mdgu-J/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

300,
It's nice to find a subject we mostly agree on.

Re:14th St busway -
While being touted ad a huge success it is an amazing waste of resources by NYC. The entire concept of all the 2-way crosstown streets is to alleviate traffic from the "quiet" small side streets. The busway has been terrible for the retailers on 14th St. Even both Popeyes and Dairy Queen closed due to this (NB I had spoken to the owners/manger of both several times and they both pointed out that the busway had killed their business). Yet whenever I mention this on social media I get shouted down by TransAlt lackies saying things like "Nobody drove to shop on 14th Street." This is quite ironic since I regularly drove to make purchases at both the Popeyes and the Dairy Queen and the thing which stopped me was when parking became untenable.

They also widely claim there is no increased traffic on the other side streets and back it up with alleged "studies" by their cohorts. Not only is this physically impossible if you believe in the law of conservation of mass (lol) but I've released multiple videos on social media showing 14th Street empty and 13th Street being totally congested. I'm sure you have become acutely aware that the intersection of University Place and 13th Street has become a total shit show due to a street redesign which expressly caused it.

And don't get me started with Citibike docks , restaurant sheds and bike lanes.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw_TSqgH4z/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cjtlb8pg4a5/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CgnH1mdgu-J/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cg76IqQA-b8/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/ChBEmubgmQm/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/ChTKCtQAwUC/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/ChVwtswAFHG/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/ChdIQamAXzX/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/ChlPJVzArJs/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CiBRkdzA992/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CiBVzeoAWg4/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=