Finding a really competent honest broker

I really like the company I stumbled upon but this is a site of brokers so I will defer to them on this. All the commenters here sound more than up for the job with years of experience under their belts...

I'm sure this is going to irk some people, but I've said this before. Your property, the market has more to do with achieving a successful sale than any particular broker or brokerage company. I'm sure you hired someone from a big box firm? Did that get people in the front door? This is especially true in our digital age, where probably 99% of the buyers for your Upper East side two-bedroom co-op are going to find it via streeteasy. And 100% of the brokers that are doing research for their buyer Clients are finding your listing in the RLS.

Of course your agent needs to be very knowledgeable about your location, your building and your particular home. You'd be surprised how many times we show a property that's listed by a large firm, with a star broker attached to it. And then unfortunately the person showing the property is unaware of sublet rules, storage, bike room, what's included in the maintenance?? It can be pretty frustrating. What's even worse, after you haven't accepted offer the listing agent not having the necessary due diligence materials ready to go.

Unfortunately, the situation you describe is pretty common, however, there are very competent agents that do handle most of their own showings or else will introduce you to somebody on their team in advance to make sure everybody's on the same page.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

Appreciate Keith's candor above.

I guess the question to ask as well is - did they fail to find potential buyers, or did they fail to find buyers bidding the price you wanted?

The market is what the market is.
One innate bias we all possess is the "the endowment effect", that is the tendency for people to value something more highly simply because they own it.

As a longtime casual browser of NYC RE, the majority of units below $3M++ are interchangeable and no out of the box thinking is going to get you more money than its worth. Barring an exceptional location, view or light, your typical 2BR UES Coop is the wonder bread of NYC apartments.

Pick the one with the best dance on Tik Tok. Or whose reality TV show gets the highest ratings.

When we bought in Nowhere we used a broker who was brand new, zero transactions. But she hustled and has good people at her firm and represented us well. She now rents it when we are not in residence and brought us an offer to sell at 2.7x what we paid. What she lacks in experience she makes up for in hustle.

My point is, if you know a bit about what you're doing, you don't need deep experience, you need hustle. You need someone who will call every broker, schedule showings whenever a qualified buyer might want, get a great photographer, reply to every inbounds within minutes, and make sure the contracts are fully in order. That might be someone who hasn't sold billions of dollars, where the commission from your deal determines if she eats this month.

I appreciate these insights! In this case, we were truly willing to consider any price. She just didn’t bring buyers and only wanted to find people that fit the mold from years ago - wealthy older pied a terre couples from Connecticut etc who I think no longer exist instead of younger people who might want in to the building at record low prices. How do we find the person with the best buyer pool given KB’s insight, which we understand that everyone starts with research online…..And how do we avoid the bait and switch issue?

This forum is an amazing example of Dunning-Kruger Theory when it comes to Real Estate.

@yentle to be very frank, this isn't a listing I would want to take on, not that you're asking! However, if you send me an email or give me a call, I will happily make a couple of very good recommendations of people that I think you'll be happy with.

I strongly recommend at least talking to the one's on Keith's list.

I don't want to put words in Ali's mouth but this has some of the aspects of listings we take on together.

You certainly couldn't go wrong with Ali.

I followed the listing and researched the broker. I agree with what I feel the consensus above is - the broker really isn't the problem; it is the product. The broker you chose the first go around definitely is tapped into the market of buyers I think MIGHT go for your apartment. With that said, I agree that when you want a second go-around the Ali/30yrs combo would both bring serious brain power and hustle to your listing.

I also think Keith would steer you in the right direction. The product is, quite simply, a tough sell at any price. I know because I live in a similar building and have watched the listings sit for years . . . and years . . .. Honestly, I think 5 years with multiple price chops has become the norm in my building.

I don't know how Yentle's building works, but I do believe in some of these buildings the boards reject perfectly qualified buyers if they don't like the contract price. Those who live there and plan on finishing out their days there could not care less whether departing shareholders are able to sell their apartments, while keeping the perceived value of the apartment up for them seems may have some sort of mental health benefit. Who knows, but we've all discussed this phenomenon a lot on this board. There have been a few "in contract" listings I've watched over the years were steals from my perspective come back on the market two months after they were listed "in contract." Perhaps the buyers were not qualified; perhaps the sale price was too low for the board. While we have no way of knowing, it does seem quite difficult to get a price that makes sense on the fundamentals in any of these buildings.

Thanks everybody for the kind words.

This IS the kind of thing I do, selling something a little differentiated and staying on track until the deal gets done.

But one lesson to draw from one of my current projects -- a well-priced gut reno in a lovely co-op building with a somewhat strict board -- is that to handle everything in a cold segment of the market, where you're spending the better part of a year on a piece of business where you only bring in $25K top line, is not a great business model.

You know what's fun? Selling an apartment that everybody wants in Brooklyn, where you make the same money in a third of the time.

So yes, I think you're basically going to have the same experience with most of the major teams. I am happy to talk to you about your apartment, which I haven't been following, if you want to reach out to me at upstairsrealty@gmail.com

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

@ali - I just looked at your listing [ "a well-priced gut reno in a lovely co-op building with a somewhat strict board"] and cannot figure out why that one is not moving. It is priced quite well for a buyer with my preferences. Wishing you continuing good luck, but I certainly hope the sellers are not pinning its continued availability on you.

MCR, we've been on the market nearly seven months, and had three offers.

However, the flip side of "it's not the broker, it's the market" thesis (which I'm not sure I agree with completely, as it undermines the justification for 50% of what I do) is that people can't read and buyer's brokers aren't doing their job.

One of our offers came in from people who were direct, and unqualified -- they could have changed their financial life to present better, and I told them how, and they didn't want to do that. Fine; their prerogative.

The second offer came in from people whose buyer's agent *hadn't even read their taxes.* (I did yell at her manager about that one.)

The third was from people who were qualified but "stalled out" -- we just didn't agree on price.

But there's SO MUCH chaff. I'm constantly showing to brokered clients who are surprised that it's a gut. I got a call from a sweet out-of-towner who thought it might have full unobstructed river views -- no, it has great partial views, and in the listing THERE'S A PHOTO.

I do hope the fourth time is the charm, especially since the two nearest competitive apartments in the building (one of which was listed by a star team but sat for a year-and-a-half anyway) are getting out of my way, but it is tough. The stock market is performing so well that most buyers don't have much cash/are reluctant to go to cash, and people who do have absolute pots of cash can find competing product they don't have to renovate. (Another buyer's broker brought me a guy who had the tastes for an apartment that would be 3x the price, and would have been qualified at that level, so I don't know why they hadn't had the "you're shopping at the wrong price range" conversation.)

The people who love the neighborhood and are trapped in smaller apartments, yearning for space, generally are tied up with kids and can't imagine finding time to renovate.

That said, it is an extremely special building and I'm confident that it will find a happy owner -- I just don't know when.

ali r.

Good luck Ali - it sounds like people come in without having done the barest minimum of research/prep. Are they mostly from outside NY? Because that would really surprise me of people for whom it is not their first rodeo in the NYC property market. (Although it seems like even many of the buyers' brokers are clueless)

Any reliable statistics on what % of sales are people moving within Manhattan or within NYC vs the % of sales of people moving to Manhattan (or to NYC) in the last, say, 5 or 10 years?

For those who have been following this thread for its slow-market entertainment value, my Sutton listing just went into contract, ten months and five (!) offers later.

Congrats Ali!!! WFT with five offers? Were they board turn downs or buyers backing out after having their architects come in and price the reno? Re architects and pricing renovations, with respect to our second NY renovation that we love, I attribute the flawlessness of that experience all to engaging a good architect who remained committed to seeing his vision come to fruition with weekly site visits. He was more exacting with the contractors than we would have known how to be. Worth every penny, but many, many pennies it was.

Nice to hear.

P.S. - I scrolled up and saw that you already explained the first three offers. Ugh. I am bracing myself for the roller coaster that will be showings of my beloved apartment. It is unique, but not in a market-broadening way.

On a related note, here is a building of the same ilk as mine that is still very much a club (unlike mine). Note this recent contract signing: https://www.compass.com/listing/130-east-67th-street-unit-9c-manhattan-ny-10065/1546448958278445713/

For some who want this niche product, it is only partially about where you are; the factor that drives the price is who you are with. That group of buyers is consolidating into fewer buildings.

My beloved building still has some chance of long term survival with the last few entrants, plus one that is in contract right now. The "in contract" right now is particularly interesting - trust funder grandchild of one of the country's most celebrated statesmen with a household name of their own through their own unconventional achievements that would definitely turn off the old guard if they had any awareness of those achievements, which I don't think they will because they are only available on streaming networks that I am pretty sure the old guard has no access to. When everyone below a certain age switched to FIOS, we had to keep spectrum for all those above a certain age because any change for that group is a non-starter.

Honestly, it was largely the arrival of these new entrants that prompted me to finally let go. I am hoping one of their friends will take a shine to our apartment. Who knows what the ethos of the building will be when this next generation takes over, but I do see a marked difference in the ethos between the younger generation trust funders and the octo-to-centagenarians. The biggest difference is that the younger generation is not wed to the idea of "servants," and, shockingly, the trust funder who grew up in the building is talking of cutting services to cut maintenance, and also talking about doing a hefty assessment to pay down the mortgage. I did not see that coming.

I cannot imagine his succeeding on either of those fronts with the number of octo-to-centagenarians still in the building (over 50% of the shares), so I imagine the Titanic will remain on course for the iceberg, making our apartment a non-starter for anyone with a modicum of financial management rigor of the ilk embedded in many on this forum.

Five offers is impressive. Ten months to contract not so much.

Congrats, Ali!

911, tell me about it. I'm starvin' to death over here.

Nothing has gone to the board yet, MCR. It's my job to traffic-cop before we get to that point.
Two offers completely unqualified; one might have worked if they had turned some assets they said were money into cash, but they refused to do that; one offer qualified but no meeting of minds on price; and then our current candidates, who we love.

I had no doubts about you pulling this off

30 <3

Very happy for you Ali. What a lot of work!

So, continuing update on sale efforts of our place: Maybe it is just that the selling season has begun or the weather has gotten nicer, but the interest is encouraging.

Past weekend showings have a few coming back this week for second showing. Profile of two sets of prospective purchasers match up completely with who I envision buying the apartment.

One thing that our agent changed in the listing when we lowered the price is listing it as a potential three bedroom, and the young couple with the small child are apparently fleshing out the potential for that.

I cannot imagine the place as a three bedroom, but, as many have pointed out, it is impossible to know what will "work" for others given the infinite mix of infinite preferences out there. Our building's dog-friendliness combined with its sophistication is a selling point in the neighborhood; indeed, the one thing in the building on which there has never been any disagreement is the priority dogs hold in all of our households. If this young couple moved in with their young child and dog, they would be the fourth family of that profile in the small building, and it does appear they might have a connection to one of the other such families already in the building. Who knows if they will make an offer, or make an offer that Mr. MCR will accept, but watching the process this close up is interesting.

In closing, I am thinking that the interest our apartment is experiencing versus some of the typical estate sales in the neighborhood is that it is renovated. Having done two renovations in NYC, I can totally understand how the need to renovate would be a deal killer or something that would require a huge discount.

My general experience with people "reaching" (they can't afford a "real" 3 bedroom so they look at stuff they can torture into one) is that most of the time "the maintenance is too high."

@30yrs - That is what I think. I feel like anyone who has the money to buy into the building has the money for a real three bedroom if that is what they want. Anyone who is looking to turn an elegant two bedroom into an inelegant three bedroom is almost certainly stretching, which I can understand. Again, I am the one who would rather live in a studio in NYC than a mansion elsewhere, so I get the compromises those who love New York make to enjoy the grand tableau.

However, even if such a buyer decides the stretch makes sense, I suspect the board wouldn't like it; and were the board to turn down such a buyer, I think the board would be doing the buyer a favor.

I am back to being pessimistic about the likelihood that the apartment will trade even though we have two buyers scoping out third bedroom potential with contractor showings. Totally my bad for pressuring the agent to lower the price.

Here is a legit 3 bedroom in the neighborhood at a similar price point with similar maintenance: https://streeteasy.com/building/400-east-52-street-new_york/12f?utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=8C83MMV7RexWsuVH_iFI4TsgdfQSeFqi2D4005jY08go5rL8aaSFuxOI-0jUIgDDDhnAdY5YQTkRZD3g

That looks like a lovely family apartment, and I can't imagine anyone looking for a family apartment in the neighborhood choosing ours over something like this.

I think it's worth advertising as a three bedroom if it's a simple conversion or the room in question Just misses the mark to be considered a bedroom by New York City department of building standards. Otherwise I would leave it alone, you're just driving traffic that's not going to be qualified and also have people getting annoyed with you're misleading listing description. Would the board allow this to be converted to a three bedroom? That's another question you have to ask. And if you think it would do better as a three bedroom and it can be converted, do the work.

MCR, while I kinda agree with you that I like that one on 52nd Street, remember that there are arguments to be made in favor of yours -- better river views and a modern renovation are two easy ones, and the presence of the servant's room also helps equalize the size difference a little.

I don't know if "Convertible 3" is the first thing I think when I see your floorplan, but it looks like the conversion wouldn't be too tough. If might kill a closet and you don't have a ton to spare, but you could build in an another closet in the third bedroom without too much trouble.

No matter how hard I try, I just don't see it as a three bedroom, and I, personally, would be annoyed with the marketing's pulling me in with the three bedroom potential.

Further to that point, if converting it to a three bedroom required messing with the closets, I would be even more annoyed; the closets we did during the renovation house custom cabinetry (fully lit beautiful millwork!) that removes the need for dressers or wardrobes in the bedrooms. It would be a crime to remove them for a fake bedroom.

With that sad, as everyone has reminded me, none of us can understand each other's preferences. Indeed, Mr. MCR and I can't even understand each other's preferences, and I view us as close as two people can be. So, going forward, I am going to do my best to just tune out and let the professional do her job. As noted above, I already regret interfering.

MCR, turning your apt into a 3BR would be a big mistake IMO. Also, in my uneducated opinion, the 3BR you linked is pretty magnificent irrespective of bedroom count / size because of the sheer number of windows and exposures in every direction. So yes, anybody looking at your place as a 3BR over that other one should immediately be eliminated from consideration simply because they have no sense.

Right?! If that one is still on the market with no takers after six months, I don't see how ours stands a chance. :(

>>>if converting it to a three bedroom required messing with the closets, I would be even more annoyed

Consider people might need space but not a proper 3rd bedroom. Especially with one kid, two bedrooms is enough, but one more room is super helpful for dining or home office or music room purposes.

When I was looking I was focused on small 3brs or 2brs with a dining room because I really needed a bit of extra space (but not an actual extra bedroom).

I guess my point is, if it's a two bedroom, you're not permitted to advertise it as a three-bedroom. That's false and misleading advertising and the real estate board of New York does not permit it. And as somebody who runs a company that doesn't have attorneys at my beck and call, I do my best not to run a foul of my legal requirements. Imagine a couple purchases the apartment with the intentions of converting it to a three bedroom, this is the marketing that pushed them into the deal. Now they submit their alteration agreement to the board, and it's not accepted? As an attorney, would you be just a little bit concerned you could face some liability for this?

No. I would make sure the contract and any riders reflected the legal and practical reality.

@krolik - Yes, that makes sense and is consistent with Ali's highlighting the SR, which actually has a wonderful provenance of having been the home office of a distinguished New York gentleman for many decades prior to our purchasing it. It is a lovely room that can serve as either a lovely home office or bedroom that is legal by every metric.

Oh Keith, what a tone -- the listing broker wouldn't advertise it as a three-bedroom, he/she/they would advertise it as "convertible" -- Keith I can swear I've been in a West Side listing of yours where you've done that. It's something that we all do -- to show clients how space can potentially be used.

It's one of the limitations of StreetEasy that this isn't an option; the REBNY Listing System has more flexibility in this regard.

And then of course good practice is to follow up by sketching out code requirements such as minimum dimensions, along with a push for the potential buyers to have their attorney review.

Apologies, no tone intended. But advertising a two-bedroom apartment as a three bedroom is a No-No, there's just no way around that. I don't personally think it's a good idea and as a broker I know it's not allowed. And I think we can all point to many posters here putting listings up with misleading advertising. I do recall you recently listing your own home and I personally told you I thought it was fine to advertise it as a two bedroom, it wasn't much of a stretch. But advertising a two-bedroom apartment that would take quite a bit of renovation to convert into a three bedroom is not kosher. Feel free to post the listing of mine you're speaking of, I don't recall it?

But is that the new standard just advertise every one Bedroom as a two bedroom. Two bedroom is a three bedroom? That doesn't make any sense and it's against the real estate board of New York and Nars advertising policy. But if that's how you want to roll, that's your choice.

Not too long ago I advertised a apartment on St. Marks Street in Brooklyn that was recognized as a two bedroom by the co-op and in the offering plan. Some broker in Brooklyn, I think I know flagged it with street easy and Street easy Took the listing down.

It's listed as a three bedroom.

This is an interesting discussion. FWIW, what we are offering does include three legal bedrooms.

I guess I was confused by your earlier comments, you seemed to suggest that the listing agent was lowering the price as well as switching it from a two bedroom to a three-bedroom based on 'potential'. I've seen the listing, didn't see any previous iterations of the three-bedroom. What I find interesting is so many people on this board complain about misinformation regarding listings such as square footage, bedroom count, etc....

Bottom line: I think the agent we engaged is doing an excellent job of representing us. I agree with Ali regarding norms and have never been one to complain about square footage or bedroom count on my own account. The only time I have ever felt misled by a listing was when a photo of an advertised terrace made it look significantly more appealing than it was in real life. However, I understood the agent was doing their best to drive traffic and did not fault them for it.

MCR Fyi My comments were meant as good-natured advice, not chastisement. I'm not the real estate police.

Keith - No worries. I appreciate the discussion.

Second board rejection for 130 E67th 9C? Ugh. With all the work that apartment looks like it needs, I can't see how it trades at a price that a board prone to price protection will accept. Pure speculation on my part re both board rejections and rationale for such rejections if they occurred. Double speculation on my part, but those are my thoughts.

What is your speculation on why the current owners bought it in 2022, just list it untouched & still in estate condition 20 months later?

I saw that and wondered whether a renovation plan was not approved by the board or deemed too expensive by the short-term holders once they got into the weeds of planning. Those were my thoughts short of personal change of circumstances (job move, divorce, family emergency that requires their presence elsewhere, etc).

Estate / Lien problems? ACRIS 2022081800541001, filed about the same time as the 2022 estate sale: 2022080200507001.

Whatever it is, same agent as the one who sold it to the sellers appears to be now selling it for them. No doubt she has explanations at the ready for both the short hold and the two recent contracts that did not go through. It will be interesting to see if the listing agent changes at some point.