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New construction buildings with problems

Started by 911turbo
21 days ago
Posts: 311
Member since: Oct 2011
Discussion about
Interesting article on how some newer “luxury” buildings in NYC are actually rife with problems like flooding, rodents, heat, etc. Of course the article could have cherry picked the few bad apples and the overwhelming majority of new construction buildings have no issues. I do feel, however, many older buildings that I have lived do feel much more “solid”. Also, I tend believe tradespeople and... [more]
Response by Krolik
19 days ago
Posts: 1436
Member since: Oct 2020

Could it be that some of the newer buildings are so complex (taller, narrower, subject to more regulations and built on less optimal plots of land) that projects are too difficult to manage?

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Response by stache
19 days ago
Posts: 1317
Member since: Jun 2017

It's just sloppy construction. Lots of undocumented workers etc.

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Response by selborne
19 days ago
Posts: 66
Member since: Jan 2006

I have a just retired friend who was a super for many NYC apartment buildings over his career. He had a "sweetspot" theory regarding building problems.. that all new construction has teething problems (bad design and constuction) that show up in the first 5 years after completion. Then you have the honeymoon period where those problems have been addressed but the facade and mechanical systems are still relatively new. After that things fall apart.

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Response by Aaron2
19 days ago
Posts: 1716
Member since: Mar 2012

The article mixes management things (e.g., bug/mice/roden extermination) with design things (e.g., broken pipes, poor construction, failure to address punch list items), so it's a bit of a mess. That said, I think there are two major changes to construction that significantly affect the issue of modern construction being 'worse' than older buildings:
1) Older buildings (let's say pre-WWI, even pre-WWII) were generally "over engineered" for their purpose: While the mechanics of structures were known (how to span, how to cantilever) the very technical materials knowledge (e.g., beams of different woods have different maximum spans), and slightly advanced math required to do it efficiently was still not well and broadly understood, thus beams, columns, & load-bearing walls were thicker than 'necessary', because overbuilding generally meant it wouldn't fall down. So one also got thicker interior walls and floors, heavier cast iron sewer pipes, etc., which (when correctly installed) led to more robust buildings. Construction styles also were 'heavier': the space between structural columns was often brick or stone, walls were lath and plaster. Slab stone facades were thicker, and joints grouted, rather than filled with caulk. Apartments were built as 'houses in the sky', and upper-class tenants wanted the quality of construction they would get in a townhouse.
2) The late-30s-early 40s saw the rise of significantly improved materials engineering and structural calculation, which was critical in order to make a very tall building that didn't need enormous supports on the lower levels, thus structural elements became thinner and lighter, with the attendant risks (less room for structural error, less noise dampening). This, along with the rise of new materials, affected everything: how thick faucet washers were, the use of PVC instead of metals, the use of gypsum board rather than lath & plaster. Coupled with an economic imperative to push new construction, the idea of 'value-engineering' meant that all but the most luxury housing was made of the minimal amount of material that would pass a buyer's standards. Why put down a 1-1/2" thick oak floor (which will last 100+ years) when a buyer will only be in a place for 50 years, so a 3/4" thick floor will do? Why have cast iron sewage pipes (very quiet) when PVC pipe (not so quiet) will do? Why have a solid nickel faucet, when it could be nickel-plated? Why hire a skilled craftsperson to get a wire and plaster wall up, when anybody can hang drywall, and the only skill is doing the joint taping correctly? Manual labor was cheap until a little while after WWII, but interior finishers were still considered the 'skilled crafts' (vs the 'construction trades').
Modern materials and value-engineering got us much more housing, but at a price of traditional 'quality', which is now reserved for the wealthy. (Dunno what the residents of 432 Park got. Mostly fancy surfaces, over a value-engineered structure, it appears).

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Response by 300_mercer
19 days ago
Posts: 10663
Member since: Feb 2007

Aaron,

Our impression of what was built is influenced by survival bias. A lot of shoddy stuff built 100 years back has already been torn down. And we tend to judge quality by what survived.

Modern construction has many more bathroom and plumbing. And it tends have ACs and some type of mechanical ventilation mechanism. The more feature you have, more is there is to break. Electrical work standards are far higher than in the past and there is far more of it. We can open our door remotely which was unthinkable even 15 years back. We have Ethernet wiring.

Mid end Kitchen cabinets are far better now without having to worry about warping constantly. Soft close etc. Hidden hinges.

Then there are skinny tall buildings which didn’t exist before and offer a lot of engineering challenges. If a building sways 3 feet in the wind, it would expect it to have challenges.

In general, wood is new growth which is not as good as old growth but we have LVL beams which wouldn’t bow like the old beams and wouldn’t creak much.

Then old building weren’t fireproof and insulated well vs new sprinkled buildings. Of course, the sprinkler may malfunction and flood.

Then there is pesky code compliance which sucks up a lot of energy. Construction workers skill level is far higher today once you adjust for knowledge of the code.

Just my 2C.

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Response by 300_mercer
19 days ago
Posts: 10663
Member since: Feb 2007

I also see some dumb video on YouTube saying how efficient were heavy timber mass or brick house 100s of year back. But they forget to mention how much energy it took to heat them in the first place before they started to retain heat. And they barely had any windows and you had CO poisoning risk.

We have craziness now with reducing air leakage and then we complain about air quality. Recommendation is crack open the window a little. But that part doesn’t go into energy efficiency standards.

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Response by GeorgeP
5 days ago
Posts: 113
Member since: Dec 2021

Aaron,

That’s an interesting theory about the age of buildings and the quality of the construction. On the flip side, we are currently living in a circa 1900 Hausmanian style building in Paris and, while they look solid from the outside, we’ve never been in a building that is so noisy inside from the other tenants. Even in our bedroom that buts up against a neighboring building we can hear everything that goes on in there. (Suppose the reverse is true also.) It’s definitely not the romantic image of Paris. Everyone we talk to here has a similar story.

On the other hand, we lived for a time in a 1920s pile on the UES and it was whisper quite inside. We miss that level of quiet.

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Response by stache
1 day ago
Posts: 1317
Member since: Jun 2017

My building is quiet but not because of construction. It's more about being strict about noise.

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