11m penthouse sccoped up yesterday in artisan lofts

Manhattan real estate will maintain its value, even through the mess we are going through.

Its sentimental value.

any word on this building? ive read all the stuff on tribeca summit and sounds like a nightmare there. hearing anything positive/negative on this place? there will always be buyers with money to buy 11m penthouses, i suppose. but particarly suprising, especially given new development, oversaturation in tribeca new developments, etc.

tribeca summit is indeed a nightmare. it's one of the worst conversions in the city. i don't know much about artisan lofts, but the penthouse is horribly overpriced. keep in mind though that a housing crash happens about two years after the stock market crash. so expect NYC prices to fall at least 40% by 2010.

things are worth what people will pay for them. if the penthouse is listed at 11mm and sells for 11mm, guess what? its not overpriced. im just wondering if anyone knows when the building is expected to be finished. any word on the condition of the developer?

How do you know the 11mm sold? Streeteasy says it is temporarily off the market.

did i read that wrong? where does it say that?

now i see it. thank u.

I looked at three different apts in this building. The finishes seem high quality and definitely not cookie cutter. The spaces are larger that other places that we saw. We decided against it because it seemed overpriced and the maintenance was rather high. The developer has mostly worked on commercial projects (per the foreman), but Artisan Lofts and the Smyth (which sold out) are their attempts to break into the residential market. I think that they expect to be finished Jan/Feb 09.

Okay, I admit it - it was me. I bought this Penthouse. I don't know what came over me - I had just gone out for a little walk to grab some Ben & Jerry's, wandered by, and the next thing I know I'm dropping $11M! Oh well.

yeah, yeah. i thought the spaces were larger than most and really well done, personally. also agreed maintenace is high and just concerned about progress on the building. they havet gotten their first TCO as yet. they say theyre going to begin closings by dec 31. seems unlikely. i just fear they wind up in a tribeca summit scenario whereby the buidling is never finished.

Kate Hudson bought it!

I have doubts about the Smyth condos (built by the same developers as Artisan) having all sold out. They were asking a fortune per square foot back in 2007 (like a million bucks for a 400sft studio), and apparently from one day to the next Stribling had them all in contract... Fishy. That said, I think the Smyth building looks pretty nice, and improves that crazy Chambers/West Broadway intersection. I wonder whether the developer might have put all his efforts into the Smyth (mostly a hotel - maybe the developer's partner for the hotel is pushing), and slowed down on the Artisan project? I know people who live next door to Artisan and who told me they didn't think it could possibly be ready before Spring 09, in part because the DOB was being tough on enforcement after a couple of cranes collapsed. But that was a few month ago, perhaps they've caught up...it sure started a long, long time ago.

funny, there was some buzz about kate checking out apts in the artisan. i think the developer is under a ton of pressure. while the units look amazing, albeit totally unfinished, the facade of the building looks like crap. scafolding everywhre. unfinished. lots of openings in the structure. just messed up. its hard to imagine them moving someone in 2 months. but im SURE they'll do everything possible to get that TCO. its by floor, not by apt line, so i have to imagine its tricky seeing as their original intention was to deliver C lines first and A lines last. That said, to risky for them not to get it done. Their loan comes due Dec 9, so......we shall see.

OK, so assuming they got a TCO for one floor, but the common parts were totally unfinished, can they force people on that floor to close? Or would the TCO take that into consideration? Weird system, I'd think the whole building would have to be habitable & safe. Can't imagine living in a building and sharing the elevator with heavy construction equipment etc. Also, if the developer's loan is due that soon, they must have a refinance deal, since they would not be able to close on all units (or whatever number of unit is sufficient to repay the loan) at the same time even if they were able to start closing soon. Otherwise what: the lender forecloses? I wonder if we're going to start seeing situations like that...

DOB won't issue a TCO without a certain level of finish for the inside common areas -- the lobby is going to have to be in some kind of shape, and there should be an inside elevator working . . .

ali r.
{downtown broker}

certainly will be interesting to watch and learn from this one. 11 weeks to the final deadline. i have to assume they'll deliver a unit. the other thing to consider is will they get permission from a tennant to close without having obtained a TCO. i understand that is tricky business and can be fought at the AG level should that come to pass. how finished does a bulding need to be to obtain a TCO for a floor? i read the posts on tribeca summit and that sounds like its a disaster to live in if you were one of the unlucky first wave of closers. are there guidelines that the DOB uses to assess the condition/habitability of the exterior of the building? for ex, can there still be scaffolding, open vacant spaces on unfinished floors (2 floors were added to the top of the building. right now they are totally open; no windows, no real solid structure), hallways, etc? i still think it would be extremely unusual for the developer not to have this sorted by dec 31, given the risks to the sponsor in this enviorment. but these are unprecedented times, so....

Hey there's already a resale in that building, on the Douglas Elliman website!

can you show us where you see that? i wouldnt expect the developer to allow that?

I swear I saw it when I googled Artisan Lofts earlier -it was a 1500sft unit. I can no longer find it, though. If not allowed, perhaps they were asked to take it down. Weird.

no worries. thanks for that. if anyone has any color on the state of play with the developer, the building, etc, please post. thank you!

has anyone received a closing notice for their apartment? i understand the C-lines have received notices although TCO is still outstanding. have you heard of anyone walking from their deposit yet?

Yes. the C-lines have received a closing notice. They also are scheduling walk-throughs. I can't find a TCO on the Dept of Buildings web site. Does anybody know if they have one yet?

they do not have a TCO as yet. theyre "expecting" to get one in a few weeks. who knows at this point.

i know someone who bought there and is anxious to get in.

so what does this mean..has the recovery happened while I'm waiting for prices to drop?

> Manhattan real estate will maintain its value, even through the mess we are going through.

Yes, pay no attention to those stats or anything..... bury your head in the sand, and your apartment price will double.

Contracts were being signed at at a steady rate the height of the market 18 months ago

No TCO yet, but you can find inspections they've undergone on the DOB. There are some "outstanding objections", apparently not an issue for a TCO, but some gas-related plumbing stuff was shown as "failed" from a very recent inspection (I'm guessing from the abbreviations on the site-don't know what this mean in terms of obtaining the TCO) and there was another inspection scheduled for today - haven't checked the site yet to see the outcome. It looks to me like they're going for all floors up to 11. I'm surprised someone is eager to get in. I would think the longer the delay at this point, the better the chance at being able to renegotiate, since people would be able to walk on their contract with their deposits if no closing happens after a certain date...

tg - do you know how today's inspection went?

Don't know. Couldn't find that info on the dob website - they really don't make it easy to find stuff. But they are showing 2 more plumbing inspections scheduled for 11/24, perhaps to fix the failed items...I'll keep checking. If you google dob ny, then enter the address (157 chambers), you get the building info. The dvpers are getting close to the wire, but as Mr Chow said, they'll probably find a way to get the TCO and at least one closing done before their deadline. It would be too painful for them otherwise.

"Yes, pay no attention to those stats or anything..... bury your head in the sand, and your apartment price will double."

responding to 5 week old posts now?

tg - i think you and chow are correct in that they'll probably get it done. but at the same time, they clearly didn't want to be this close to the wire, and this is the parade of the black swans... also, this is the dob web page for this project, in case others are interested:
http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/COApplicationSummaryServlet?requestid=5&passjobnumber=104451807&passdocnumber=01&allisn=0000542257&allbin=1001505

Thanks for the feedback on the TCO. From what I understand they have until the end of the year or some people can walk.

some of the C-lines who had received closing notices for first week of December have now been pushed until week of Dec-15. if they fail to get a closing done by Dec-31 a number of parties (who signed contracts early on) have the right to terminate.

are any of you planning to renegotiate on price?

i know 2 people who bought in the building. one plans to walk no matter what. one will walk if developer doesn"t slash the price by about 30%. people dont want to take the risk of losing all their equity if the mkt really falls as much as to be expected. wall street will undoubtedly lead the way towards a glut of unoccupied apartments, especially in this "luxury" price range. you hear anything?

yes - what's the best way to contact you?

i would like to speak further about this as well. i hear theyre not negotiating as of now, but i also dont know of anyone willing to close at their contract price in this building. im glad im not first!

there are a number of buyers in the building who have a similar perspective....i can give you more detail live

my broker told me about this site today. its a good thing! im a buyer in the bldng as well, though i prefer to remain anonymous. that said, i am praying they fail to get the TCO. i cant imagine anyone closing at their contract prices. ive been in contract for over a year and the whole world has changed. not a chance i will close unless i get 40% off, which i know will never happen. so...if my prayers arent answered, im afraid im going to take my lump and move on. at least ill be able to sleep at night, rather than worrying about living in a building thats 1/2 full and worth 1/2 what i paid. no thank you.

Taz - are you an A, B or C line buyer? the C-lines are likely to be the first to walk...

i am a b line buyer. i wish i knew c line buyers, so i could beg them to threaten to walk. if they close, i likely lose my deposit. i just cant imagine anyone would make such a careless investment when we're talking about millions of dlrs. i can only imagine whats going to happen to the maitenance costs, not to mention, i have serious doubts about them completing the lobby, gym, playroom, etc. who knows what kind of quality were gonna get, now that theyre so rushed? im sorry, i have 2 kids and loved the idea of living across from the school, but im not gonna be a sucker.

i am in contact with a number of buyers (all lines...) who share your perspective. i also want to maintain anonymity but can provide some color on how others are strategizing...

i hope youre talking to those first in line. let me discuss with my husband. will be back in a bit. i guess praying is not their sole strategy? thanks, bluenose. for the record, i love love love my apt, so this has not been easy for me at all. emotionally and financially the hardest decision ive ever had to make. but unprecedented times call for unprecedented actions, im afraid.

Taz (and others following this discussion) - if you would like more information on how other buyers are approaching this critical issue please call either Roger Roisman (212-508-6784) or Danica Chin (212-508-6730) at Tannenbaum Helpern law firm. Complete anonymity, should you wish, will be preserved.

I might call...I was working on getting a loan, and I just learned the broker dropped me like a hot potato saying the appraiser knew the building and because none of the amenities were finished they couldn't appraise - so I can't even get a loan even if I wanted to (haven't tried other brokers or banks)...

Update on the TCO: there were 2 inspections this morning: the DOB site indicates that there are still failed items following these plumbing inspections - they seem to concern the B & C lines (I assume that's what the dvpers are trying to get a TCO for, given closing notices were sent out for these 2 lines apparently), and relate to sprinkler problems. In addition the inspection seems to have uncovered 3 new "unresolved" items. The next instalment I can see is a 12/19 inspection of water/sanitary fixtures. There is no authorization for any gas use, if I'm reading this correctly.

power in #s. we called roger. you have nothing to lose. you can be anonymous and just find out whats going on. i cant help but be very concerned about the quality, value, and time line of this project. lots of unresolved issues and time is almost up.

Thanks. I did. Is there a way to create a separate and password-based site/thread for this?? I'm not a techie, no idea if this is realistic.

it is probably worth while checking in with Roger as the week progresses for an update on any developments.

does anyone know what inspections, other than plumbing, they need to pass in order to obtain a TCO? have they had any of them?

http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/InspectionWorkOrderQueryServlet?requestid=18&passworkordernumber=10805517

i could be off here, as im not an expert with this DOB site, but it appears to me they got the TCO.

my understanding is that this is a temporary TCO for the basement (ie not for a unit they are selling). actual TCO they need remains outstanding

They had an inspection today (11/26) and passed a couple of things (water & sanitary fixtures) - still one thing remains to be resolved from the 3 items that were inspected today. A couple of other inspections are now scheduled for 12/15, likely for items that were failed before (I think related to fire safety). The inspection that had been scheduled on 12/19 is gone from the dob site, so they've clearly managed to move things up a bit. On another matter, has anybody been in the building lately?

I have been out of town so I am trailing this discussion a bit. I am a C line purchaser and have talked to several mortgage companies. Some are willing to give me a mortgage (at a price), but only if at least 50% of the building has closed. So even if you want to close it will be very difficult. I don't know how they are going to get around that. From what I understand somebody has to close before year end or many people can renogotiate the price or walk away. I think it is more than just getting a TCO. I don't know how it works here, but usually you have 30 days to close after the specified date in the contract. If I am correct, we could force the issue by refusing to close for 30 days. I will have to check with my attorney; perhaps talk to Roger as well. I love my apartment, but things change -- especially when the apartment is delivered 11 months (or more) late.

entry level, etc. we are much in the same boat. there is going to be a meeting with Roger later this week. we're going to attend. i believe our attorney is joining us. your point is actually identical to an argument our attorney plans to make should the TCO not be granted by DEC 1, which it won't. The essence of the contract is that the buyer is given 30 days notice to close from the developer. Developer must be ready to close himself before issuing the 30 day notice. This is clearly not how its working.I am not a C line buyer, so I have not yet received a notice or tried to obtain financing, but its very disconcerting to hear of several stories like your own. Bottonm line-we have a greater voice together than separately, so I'm in.

Thx, k2. I don't recall reading in the contract about this requirement that the dvper be ready to close BEFORE sending the closing notice, perhaps your attorney added that to your contract as a rider - good for you if he did, but it's not in my contract. I'm not home, so I can't check right now, but I'm pretty sure the base purchase contract (from the offering plan) only requires at least 30-day prior notice from the seller to close, THEN seller can adjourn the closing with only a few days' prior notice. So they sent a first closing notice in order to get the first stake in the ground, so to speak. They already adjourned to a later date (mid Dec.). Come December 12, say, they could adjourn again to Dec 19, for instance, if the TCO hasn't come thru yet. At least this is my understanding from the contract and talking to my lawyer. The dvper controls the whole process, except for the TCO (I hope). And yes, this thing about getting a loan only if the building is >50% closed is very troubing - though how could anybody close on any new dvpment if that was a requirement of all lenders?? There's gotta be some lenders who don't have this requirement. Will also try to make the meeting - will call Roger Monday.

Maybe I was wrong, and the dvper IS actually controlling the TCO process: there are now 3 inspections scheduled for Dec 1 (tomorrow) - the dec 15 inspections are gone from the dob site...

Roger can summarize for you where a number of others stand (almost half the potential occupants) in relation to the building and actions they intend to take.

when is this meeting? i will be attending. also, with respect to k2k2k2's comments: i dont personally believe its enforceable per the contract, however, the question for the AG to consider is does a TCO in mid DEC with a closing mandated for end of Dec violate the "essence" of the contract.

Today's update on inspections, if anyone is interested: the next one is supposed to take place on 12/10. At today's inspections they "passed" most of the items, but new ones were raised that need to be resolved. I wouldn't be surprised if this 12/10 inspection was moved earlier.

I am curious about people's efforts on loans applications for units in this building. Are you getting any pushback from lenders for building-related reasons?

tg / bluenose -- thanks very much for the updates. my husband and i have not yet received a closing notice, but we are very interested in your thoughts regarding our alternatives in the coming weeks. If you'd like to chat via cellphone or offline, please get in touch with us at: ARTISANORNOT@GMAIL.COM and leave us your contact info.

I see the you tg007 had trouble getting a mortgage because of a problem getting an appraisal. Manhattan Mortgage -- the mortgage broker Artisan Lofts recommended -- is the one that told me most lenders are now requiring at least 50% of the units to be closed before approving a mortgage. I have two lenders willing to give me a mortgage, but only if this requirment is met. Maybe for others it is different. I am not aware of a requirment that the developer needs a TCO before issuing closing notices. The developer has to give 30 days notice before the first closing notice, but if he changes the closing date he only has to give 5 business days notice. Given that my closing is supposed to take place on December 11, I should know by Thursday or Friday (if notice includes the date of closing); hence, the developer's concern about a December 10 inspection. The letter of the agreement permits us to push back the closing 7 days, but general business practice is 30 days to the best of my knowldge. I don't know where to go from here. I wasn't able to reach my attorney today.

I strongly encourage anyone concerned about closing in Artisan Lofts/157 Chambers to contact attorney Roger Roisman at 212-508-6784. Roger is representing a large group of buyers (currently 15) who want to make sure their rights are being respected in this process. In particular, buyers being asked to close in December should be aware of their options. Roger will also be able to quickly put you in touch with other buyers so you can get full information about what's going on.

As predicted, next inspection was moved from 12/10 to tomorrow 12/3.

I talked to Roger and one of the buyers. They are doing what they can to protect the integrity of the TCO process, but we may have to make some hard decisions very soon. My closing is still scheduled for next week and my mortgage broker tells me that 50% of the building has to be closed before I can get a mortgage. Catch 22. Assuming they get their TCO, I wonder what happens to those who receive their closing notice and don't close if nobody closes by year end.

If you don't close by the closing date (which you may be able to postpone if your purchase contract allows it) you're in default under the contract and lose your deposit. Whether you would be able to get some of it back later on after a fight is another matter, but I don't see on what grounds...Countrywide seems to not have that condition of 50% closings (according to Sunny Hong who posts here). For the purchasers who haven't received a closing notice yet, that's good, since zero closings in Dec. is in their interest. You should talk to your own lawyer.

Thanks for the clarification. My mortgage broker told me that even Countrywide doessn't want to be the first to close an apartment, and Countrywide's rates are much much higher than others in any case. And yes, my lawyer and I are talking.

In the interest of sharing information...many of the buyers are having similar concerns and are unsure if they can or want to close. most concerns tend to revolve around the viability of the building, the ability for the developers to finish the project (i.e. lobby, ammenities, hallways, etc), the value of the units, and the ability to obtain reasonable or any financing. Again, if anyone has any chatting via cellphone or offline, please get in touch with us at: ARTISANORNOT@GMAIL.COM and leave us your contact info. we're all in this together.

enry_level - CW can close the first unit in the building. In most cases we require a 51% of units in contract (not closed). We have no exposure limits so technically we can close the first, last, and every unit in a condo. Your mortgage broker, is a mortgage broker, meaning he's just a middleman between you and the bank. He deals with CW wholesale which is different from CW retail, which I work for. As far as higher rates? You can feel free to compare our jumbo rates with our major competitors Wells Fargo, Chase, Citi, and you can tell me how we compare. Im very sure you will find our jumbo rates more favorable. sunny_hong@countrywide.com

Lets see. According to their respective web sites, for a $1.0 million 5/1 adjustable rate loan Chase offers 6.25%, Wells Fargo 6.25%, Countrywide 8.0%.

Now are you really just going off what the websites say? Besides their rates on a 5/1 ARM with Chase and Wells are with borrower paying 1 point. Did you check our 30 year fixed at 1M? In the end, the rates quoted online arent accurate. We dont have great ARMs but have great fixed products. I can probably get you a comparable rate on a 30 year fixed as opposed to a 5/1 ARM with Chase or Wells fargo paying the same amount of points. Now would you want an ARM or a fixed at the same rate?

Alright, enough about mortgages, that's besides the point. There may be lenders willing to lend on the first few units to close, although several people I talked with at Artisan are getting notices that their lenders will not finance unless 30-50% of the building is closed, depending on lender. Do your own homework, save us the advertorial about Countrywide's rates.

More to the point, the group of disgruntled buyers at Artisan continues to grow - at last count ~17 were unwilling/unable to go forward with closing under the current circumstances, whether because building is late/incomplete or because of financial concerns. Every buyer I have heard from is concerned building will not achieve 'critical mass' and may end up in financial distress. Sponsor and Realtor are mute on this subject.

Walk-throughs are being conducted this week, closings scheduled for next week. Potential buyers have the right for at least 5 days delay, sometimes more. It'll be very interesting to see if Sponsor can jam one closing in before year end. For those of you interested in getting the facts regarding the building, contact Roger Roisman (as per above) at 212-508-6784.

purchasers shld also be aware that if 3/4 of the building's buyers are unable or unwilling to close, the condo plan may no longer be effective. we're getting into some very tricky territory here. many closings are being "indefinitely delayed", but one thing is sure: time is running out. I believe there are now 18 buyers officially organized and more who for various reasons will not be closing. its important that all potential buyers are aware of these concerns.

has is been confirmed that they got the TCO

Building does not have TCO yet, another inspection scheduled for Friday, stay tuned. BofA will not close on units until 15 have closed, that is confirmed. According to BofA appraiser, only 4 units in building are ready for sale, not counting the total disarray of the common areas and the fact that entry/egress will be on Chambers St indefinitely.

That is four units too many .... If they get the TCO (as I am sure they expect) and one of the four units closes (if they don't they lose their deposit) it will be a mess. I hang my hat on mr. chow -- 3/4 of the building has to close or the plan may not be effective. I don't want to live in a construction site that may never be habitable, but I don't want a long fight either. What a nightmare.

I think there is a lot going on here that people are not aware of, and a lot of erroneous information being bantered about....I do not believe that if for example 3/4 of the building does not close, that the offering plan will be declared ineffective again. The does simply not pertain to the historical data which implies that the developer would still need to comply with what is in the contract with all remaining owners, and must still deliver them everything as promised. The question is will the units that people have walked away from resell for a substantially less price that is something the developer will have to suck up, but by no means will the building go incomplete or not reach a final stage of completion. It just would be incredibly unlikely for that to occur. I think the real issue should be that in light of this market, what kind of discount would you ask for to make it worth your closing and not wandering off to buy a three bed in WV for 500k less

Of particular concern is the claim that BofA says only 4 units are ready to close, how would they know this? they are paid to appraise one unit, they would not know the state of the other units, and having been in the building myself I can tell you that floors 3 through 10, B and C lines are ready to close.

Wow... it looks like a flippers squeeze happening... Now let me get this straight... you put deposit down and signed contract which required legal representation to purchase and now want to re-negotiate??? What if the market went up an additional 10% since closing? None of you would be hiring lawyers. Be big boys and girls and take your lumps please or better yet, close and then rent it to cover your investment.... ohhhhh I forget the carrying cost on a $3MM is like $30K/month and people only want to pay you $10K... hmmm gonna have to subsidize your renter or sell into the market. Good luck with this you guys... just b/c you have a bunch of lawyers doesn't mean the NY Attorney General or some technicality of the BLdg Dept will bail you out. The Developer has rights also.

wait a minute.... did some fool actually pay $2,000psf? Never mind what I said earlier... pls get yourselves a good bankruptcy lawyer... you may be able to get a jump on the developer.

There is indeed a lack of information, mostly because the sponsor and realtor are both refusing to return phone calls from concerned buyers, nor can buyers being asked to close in December bring along architects or other experts in order to determine whether the building is safe.

Although it's not unusual to close on an incomplete building, buyers at 157 Chambers (the new address, indefinitely) are going to be in a construction site for the forseeable future. It's certain that 18 of the sold apartments are not going to close at full price - if you doubt this call the Artisan group's lawyer. In fact, to the best of my knowledge only 4 apartments might close at full price.

Some units will be renogiated lower and will close, while others will end up back on the market. If 157 Chambers is the address used on loan docs, you'll end up in a zip code with inferior comps, lower apartment prices, several units back on the market.

I can tell you that floors 3 through 10, B and C lines are ready to close. -Thats interesting, w67th street, as I know for a fact as a purchaser that b/c lines on floor 2, 4, 5, 6 are not and will not be ready for several months. you need to deal in facts. thats important for everyone involved here. its a big investment and purchasers should be assured that they are getting what they contracted for; namely a safe building that will not be unoccupied, indefinitely under construction, or at a different address that has very different implications from an appraisors and owners viewpoint.

I think everybody needs to take a step back here... the world is not coming to an end. is it the developer or the current credit/economic conditions that have people anxious? The developer has not delivered on time, but new construction rarely does. i'm a buyer in the building, recieved a closing letter, and have had my date pushed back indefinitely. I'm extremely frustrated like the rest of you and am concerned about all the same issues, and certainly hope the developer steps up to provide some clarity. But for what it's worth, my mortgage broker did do an appraisal on my apt (a big bank) a few weeks ago... and actually appraised it above the value that i paid for it. The building does have some value, especially if it remains over 50% sold. My broker was worried about 50% of the building being under contract, not closed, in order to provide a loan.

Green, for what its worth here are my 2 cents: everyone, including the developer is extremely anxious:

The developer has clearly miscalculated the project, and has a pecuniary incentive to honor his contract. At this point, that incentive clearly outweighs his concerns about delivering the quality we all contracted for, as well as his reputational risk, as evidenced by the fact that the marketing agent either knows nothing (unlikely) or won't say anything (bingo!). The fact that they won't acknowledge buyers concerns only serves to fan the flames.

The purchasers (I am one as well) have legitimate concerns about the efficacy of the project, and in my opinion, its leap of faith to assume that they've done it right or, for that matter, will be able to finish at all.

Bottom line: the developer has set a precedent in this project via his refusal to communicate, which is uncommon for buildings of this caliber. Most purchasers feel they are entitled to answers before committing millions of dollars without any further information, ESPECIALLY in light of the time horizon.

One last point (I guess that makes it 3 cents?):

Given the above fact set, moving into this building while my wife is pregnant gives me serious pause. Even though I absolutely love the building and my unit in particular, I am simply not prepared to wager my family's health in order to live in this building without more information.

K2- I agree with all of your points, especially that the developer is now in panic mode. Communication from the developer/marketing agent has been pitiful. I'm in no way trying to defend the developer and I assure you I am as frustrated as everyone else, but I don't like hearing the building getting trashed either. I obviously want to protect my interests (as do all of you) and agree that the developer must be held accountable if he is cutting corners to deliver ahead of the Dec. 31 date. We should have reassurances that this is not the case...we should also have reassurances with the rest of the issues you highlighted. If he cannot provide these reassurances then we have a problem. So I'm definitely agreeing with you, just hoping that everyone doesn't panic and jump ship.

"just hoping that everyone doesn't panic and jump ship"

From following this thread, I get the impression that is exactly what some buyers are trying to orchestrate. If nobody closes by December 31, sounds like some or all buyers get their deposits back and released from their contracts.

If you read Mr Chow's posts from the top, she went from asking simple questions about the building, to knowing someone who was buying, to being a buyer in contract.

I don't blame anyone for trying to organize a revolt, I feel sorry for anyone stuck with the choice of overpaying or losing a hefty deposit, but if they get their CofO I suspect they will find at least one buyer to close by year end.

Is this a coup? I dont know, but it is an atempt to use leverage and combine resources in order to ensure that all bases are covered. As a buyer in the building, i can attest to all the frustration, dissapointment, anxiety, etc. This has been an emotional roller coaster for the last year. I displaced my entire family last april, assuming we'd be in the building (as advised) by June. I thought that all the waiting would be "worth it" in the end, and now here we are and i couldnt be more confused, concerened, anxious about my potential closing. This is NOT what we signed up for. It was supposed to be a lot of things, but a construction site with a lot of filth, no amentities, and potentially very few, if any, neighbors and little assurance of a finished product, it was not. I worry about my and my children's health, safety and comfort. I worry about the value of my investment. Not only b/c of the market, but b/c of the unknown fait of the building. No one wins here. What a sad situation.

My experience has been similar... a very difficult yr and a half that could have been avoided had someone provided realistic information and properly managed expectations. The little information we did receive turned out to be completely false. My major concern is the same... safety. i don't want my family to live in a building with major construction on-going. And quality can't be compromised and corners can't be cut. If i had to close tomorrow all of these questions would go unanswered, a pretty scarey situation to move into. i think we all feel the same way. Difficult to put our blind faith out there with all the disappointments we've experienced along the way.

Mr. Chow, please just go back to the offering memorandum and by-laws that you've all read and had an attorney go over... if they didn't point out the wiggle room that a developer has or what is contractually obligated on the part of purchaser as well as developer, you should be suing your attorneys. You guys sound like a bunch of whiners... numbers don't decide what is lawful, the courts will. Funny lawsuits against developers happened back in 89-92', the last market correction.... coincidence? Nah, you guys are standing firm on not closing due to "principle."

The lady does protest too much. If the value of the market continued to rise from last year (like from 2005-2006) would any of you be on this board, or worried about the health of you pregnant wife? Come on people. It's buyer's remorse plain an simple. Put yourself in position of the developer, what would you do? Yeah, get someone to close b/f 12-31-08 even if you have have to have a side agreement to sell for a $1... could such a thing happen? Absolutely and there isn't a thing you guys can do about it... seems like you all should be outside the building picketing or something... I can bring the signs. Just like wall street, if we win we get to keep the gold, if we lose the developer keeps the losses... pls rename the post, we are whiners, I lost money in NYC RE.

w67th - what exactly is your agenda here? you feel sorry for the poor developer who is going to get screwed by spoiled buyers? go start a charity...

Taking all the emotions aside (and believe me, a lot of people have a lot of emotions built up by now, going thru a year of misinformation, relocating their families for short-term which turns out to be not quite so short, etc) this comes down to business.

when the times were good -- developers were the kings... look at the offering plan/purchase agreement -- it's VERY ONE WAY for the developer... he has all the rights and minimal obligations. my attorney pointed it out to me at the time, but what could we do? it was pretty standard for new condo's and was basically take it or leave...

now, the times are not so good. and if we think the real-estate market is going to be down 30-40% it is our right to walk away from a 15% deposit. and if we are going to do that -- you better believe we are going to put up a legal fight... just like your "poor" developer who is NOT saying "i cant deliver the building as promised by dec31, so i'm just going to rescind on all the contracts and file bankruptcy." he's cutting every corner to meet the deadline thru some bs TCO/closing... and we are doing everything we can to make sure he doesnt get away with it.. Had the developer deliver anywhere close to the originally promised timeline -- he'd be sitting on his cash and we'd be living in our apts (and even if they were down in price, i dont think anyone would be going after the developer). Since the developer screwed up the project in every way possible -- he presented and forced us down this road.

This is just my take on things... i know there are some people on this board who simply want to make sure that the apt/building they close on is what they actually signed up for, and not a half-occupied construction zone w/o the luxury finishes/amenities we all paid a heavy premium for... there is no whining there either -- it's everyone's right to make sure they get what they paid for.

so, again, w67th.. what exactly is your agenda here?

"-- it's VERY ONE WAY for the developer... he has all the rights and minimal obligations. my attorney pointed it out to me at the time, but what could we do? it was pretty standard for new condo's and was basically take it or leave..."

Nobody forced you to sign this contract. You could have waited until contruction was substantially complete. You didn't because you thought prices were going up and it would cost you more to wait. You paid for an option to buy, you lost, you lose the cost of the option.

Greedy developer, greedy buyers, it is hard to feel sorry for either.

I hope you get your deposit back but spare us the drama, it is simply a case of group buyers remorse. If prices were 25% higher NOBODY would be complaining about closing in a not quite finished building.

Just ignore him as the others are doing.

Green20, what do you mean when you say your closing date has been pushed back indefinitely? Didn't your initial closing date get rescheduled to another date?

divvie/2cents, if I wanted to start a charity, I'd start with the cholera epidemic.

2cents at least you are man/woman enough to admit, it's the tanking market that has you up in arms and that you signed the contracts when the developer was "kings." I've been on both the commercial and residential side of NYC RE since 1987.... if I signed a 10 year lease with a tenant when the market was low and the the rental rates go up, I didn't go back to the tenant in year five and say I want more or sue him for not sweeping the floors enough to kick him out. So unlike all of you whiners here, I understand that a contract is a contract and can take my lumps.

divvie... two i-bankers see a pile of poop. One says to the other I'll pay you $1MM to eat it, guy does and gets $1MM, then he turns around and bets the other guy he won't do it for $1MM... the other guys does. The GDP would count that... so I just believe people as yourselves that flip and bgt into the RE craze in NYC and elsewhere really haven't contributed anything to society. It's not like we r gonna live longer or found a cure for aids... and yes you can ignore me, but don't ignore the decision you need to make of walking away from your $450K deposit or actually being forced to close on this thing....

actually I'm the principal in the development :)

Thx u modern

R u ignoring me now divvie

Still divvie?