114 East 72nd Street #12A in Lenox Hill

Anybody attended the open houses?
Looking for a 3 Br in the UES (preferably 70's) for up to $2MM. At least 1,800 sqf
Any sugestions?

sanba: How much can you put down? The UES has a lot of coops that require 30, 40, even 50 percent. If you can swing the big down payment, it opens up a lot of options.

I can put down 50% but I've been looking for a while and there's not much out there......yet.
We even went in contract (July) for a Co-op but were rejected. I was very depressed then. Now I'm very happy about it.
Hopefully things will start to come and I will be able to get something with more space!!

This one might drop into your range before long: http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1036111

I envy you. It's a nice time to be a buyer with substantial cash reserves. My advice would be not to hurry if you don't have to. You'll probably get something really special if you keep your powder dry.

Can you give a hint as to why your previous package was rejected?

We don't know for a fact what happened.
The apartment went in contract again but they haven't closed yet. It seems to be a tough Board (Madison Av)
I saw the one you sent. Great location but the 3 BR's are small. Would love to keep the Library as a Family room. Also, since it's in Park I guess the Board might be tough too as well and a lot of cash requirements after down payment.
Thanks!

Sanba & West81st: Can you give me an idea of post down payment cash requirements?
Thanks

The one we were in contract for required cash equal to the apt price after 50% downpayment.
I know some coops in Park Av require xtimes the price of the apt.

So to buy a $2M co-op you actually needed to have $3M in cash in the bank...

sanba, for what its worth 12A looks really nice, I like it a lot more than 16A, open kitchen, combined the 2 bedrooms up top, only issue is it is a little strange to have to walk through the kitchen to get to the 3rd bedroom.

what really struck me was 12A v 12C, I guess 12C is a little bigger but its a dump and 50% more expensive.

dmeisterg:"So to buy a $2M co-op you actually needed to have $3M in cash in the bank..."

Yes, doesn't that just make great sense? I always thought people with this kind of money had brains. If I had that much cash wouldn't I just use it to maximize my downpayment and reduce my monthly debt, instead of just letting it sit around so that some board could sleep better at night...sometimes the logic escapes me.

sanba, we are looking for somewhat similar, although we don't have 50% downpayment, and certainly don't have the apt price in the bank after downpayment. We found that there were definitely options for 1800+ SF apartments for under $2MM on UES. Some better, some worse, just depends on your criteria.

Arguably my favorite (from a string on price chops):
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/234504-coop-530-east-72nd-street-lenox-hill-new-york
Not sure how you feel about being that far east.

I should say WERE looking, since we're pretty firmly sideliners now.

I prefer to be west of Third Av.
We are also on the sideline but I'm still looking at everything new that becomes available and also at the ones with price reduction that now fall into my search.
If I see something that I like, I will go with a lowball offer and see how desesperate the seller is.
I'm thinking about offering around 30% less than the asking price. What do you think?
I have 3 appointments today and will get back with observations.
By the way, I don;t have the apt price in the bank after downpayment either!

gutter86 - it is because they don't want anyone who has to remotely "stretch" to be in their building. It is a line that eliminates "those people" from being in your building. It is no longer, can you afford the apartment, it is are you "our type of person".

I am all for how coops require more solid financial for their buislings, but these kinds of buildings take that to more of a socio-economic level than just good financial practice.

To each their own...

sanba: 30% sounds right. Look forward to your observations later.

I saw two apartments today:

30 E 65th Apt 6/7E: wouldn't buy it for half the price. Downstairs is not that bad if you don't mind not having a windowed kitchen. Upstairs it's a disaster. You have to walk through the bathroom to get to the bedrooms. You would have to completely redo the space and turn it into a 3 BR and then it might work. Nice building though and great location.

36 E 72: Awful. Wouldn't buy it for half the price either. It's in the back of the building (south) and all the windows face a wall. Who's going to pay that kind of money to live in an apartment were there are no views?
The layout is pretty weird too. There's a large foyer full of doors and you have to actually open a door to get into the living room. The nicest part was the kitchen and dining room though. Great location too but definitely not worth it.

Thanks for the update - look forward to hearing what happens when
you find a place you like and offer 30% less than ask

How about this?
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/1037603

Just saw there are two apartments in that building: 6AB and 8 BC. I like 8BC's floorplan better.
I don't know the building but will pass by this weekend to check it out and will definitely see them next week.
Thanks

Sanba, most of the stuff I've seen on UES that fit our criteria was east of 3rd. West of 3rd certainly seems to command a premium from what I've seen. I think when we do buy, we'll take size/space over location, within reason.

I think your strategy of lowballing is a very good one. If everyone on these boards is right about the magnitude and timing of the declines, it would be the approximate equivalent of getting a 2010 price today. We are keeping an eye on the market with a thought of possibly doing something similar.

As others have pointed out, so far the desperate sellers are still the exception, so the universe of apartments that we'd consider lowballing is small. The benefit of waiting (for us) is hopefully having more apartments to choose from in 1-2 years.

That said, if you find a place you love, and your lowball strategy works, more power to you. Good luck and please keep the group posted.

I think that is a fine strategy but if you have a need for a 3 bedroom and are looking on the UES, then you most likely have a family. That being said, you probably won't be able to downsize much (i.e.taking a 1 or 2 bdrm over a 3bdrm) because of this.

So if you have a family and don't want to buy and wait it out on the sidelines, the alternative is to rent. And have you seen the rents for a nice 3 bedroom, west of 3rd in a nice doorman building lately? There aren't many 3 bdrm rentals in this category - they all seem to be non-rental buildings (i.e.coops). And the ones that are available are asking outrageous rents. So if I am going to spend that much money on rent, I would rather buy and get the much needed tax deductions. And yes, if prices go down, I'm out of luck but I plan on living there for a long time so any short term correction, I can handle. On the flip side, if prices stay the same or decrease slightly, I'm happy I purchased and took the deductions. Besides, I want a place for my family to call their own and all the rentals I've seen (3 bdrms) are not in the condition I'm accoustomed to. That's why I'm looking to buy as well.

I will be visiting tomorrow a few 3BR apts in the UES. All are over my budget but still want to check which ones I really like to start trying the lowball strategy and checking how desesperate seller's are.
Keep you posted

Believe me, Sellers are not desparate enough to take 30% less on a 3 Bedroom apartment on any of the most Primo blocks of the Upper East Side. You're looking for a needle in a haystack. Those owners have 3X the value in the bank, or more and have most likely been on this roller coaster before. Try settling further east or north on the fringe.

BrokerGirl, you can't really believe that every 3BR plus owner west of third has 3X the value of the apartment liquid, can you? For one, many buildings there don't have quite such stringent requirements. For another, many people here are sitting on massive gains (e.g., buyers from the 70s, 80, 90s, and early 00s). Finally, figuring we're talking about at least $1.75M for an apartment, and that there are proably more than 10,000 3 BRs west of third, I'm thinking a fair number of these are occupied by people with significantly less than $5M liquid. I'd think there's probably a reasonable number of people approaching retirement, no longer needing the big space because the kids are out of the house, and not entirely thrilled with the recent hit to the 401K.

JohnDoe, I completely agree. But don't forget estate sales. If the interior of their apartments are any indication, I'd guess a decent amount of people selling apartments west of Lex are trying to unload grandma's apartment for an obscene amount because she didn't leave them much else.

Agreed, xellam. And for those people, 2/3 of what they were hoping for in cash is probably preferable to sitting on an empty apartment paying maintenance out of a cash-poor estate.

I tend to agree with BrokerGirl for the moment. They're probably not desperate... but they'll be. Sanba... why don't you rent? what's the hurry? If you're looking for under 2M right now, you'll probably be able to get the same for under 1.6 come next summer. Did you see trend about 3bd/2bt on UWS for 1 to 1.49 Million? That was started a few months ago when someone dared the forum here to find ANY apt. that would fit those characteristics (not any desirable apt. just any). Now, some people have found a few below 1 million. It is still early in this crash...

> BrokerGirl, you can't really believe that every 3BR plus owner west of third has 3X the value of the
> apartment liquid, can you?

No, its what one calls "wishful thinking". Because none of the prime owners work on wall street or put a dime in the stock market.

Most of what I've been hearing from the brokers over the last couple years I'd characterize as flat out lying.

I visited 7 apartments today. My broker had a driver so it was perfect, especially on a day like this. I guess I was one of the few out there today.
From all of them, there was one that I LOVED!! It's in move-in condition. Prewar, Co-op, close to Third Av, part time doorman (until midnight), small lobby. It has been renovated really nicely.
The asking is $3,295,000 and I checked the listing and the owners bought it in 2004 for $2,100,000.
What would you think would be a reasonable offer in current market conditions?
The other one that I liked, even though it needs work is 114 E 72nd. The asking for that one is $2,450,000.
What do you guys think?

It looks beautiful. Do you know if the renovation was done after the last buyers purchased in '04? Looks like the same line sold for $2.5M at the end of '05. Hard to imagine paying more than an '05 price on this. Perhaps offer $2.5 and maybe work up to 2.7ish? I guess it all depends how much you love the apartment and how much you're willing to risk overpaying for it.

Thanks John Doe
I think I'm going to wait a week or two to see if they lower the price. It's been already 60 days on the market.
After that I might make an offensive offer and see what happens.

Give us the link to the apartment you LOVED.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/345215-coop-170-east-79th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

Did you check the listing?
What do you think?
Regardless of the current market conditions I think the asking is too high at almost $1700f2 in a building without amenities and a part-time doorman.

I like the layout a lot, great use of space. And the duplex makes it feel more like a home without wasting space (which a lot of duplexes do). The kitchen and bathrooms look great. The drapes and some of the furniture is hideous, which makes the rest of apartment a bit hard to judge.

I think the price is completely absurd, even for the area and the type of place. Do you know anything about the sellers, when they bought, motivations for sale, etc.?

I agree is newbuyer99. Aside from the awkward position of the 1st floor bathroom, the apartment has an amazing layout, and looks like it gets a good bit of light. It is too expensive psf, though, and for the lack of amenities the maintenance seems high.

They bought August 19,2004 for $2,1M
The broker didn't say why they were selling. She tried to make us believe it wasn't related to current market conditions but I don't think that's true.
Taking into consideration what they paid for, and the renovations, what would you think would be a fair offer?
By the way, thanks for your feedback.

It's a 50% down building yet only has a Part Time Doorman? If you are going to try to be exclusive with a 50% down requirement, at least have a Full Time Doorman. Yes, I understand the maintenance is already high as is but it's like having a $5 million property in the middle of a low income housing tract - it's simply out of place.

2.5M seems like a solid offer. It takes into consideration their renovations, and is still well over 1000psf.

50% down building? I'd offer no more than $1000 psf. I'm sure they will laugh at your offer and it's unlikely you'll get it. But maybe in a few months. Who knows?

I am closer to Special K than xellam. I like the apartment a lot, but would not pay $2.5MM for it, especially with 50% down.

That said, it's very individual - it well may be worth more to you than to me.

One other thought. Because it's a 50% down building, and they paid $2.1MM, they owe less than $1.1MM on it. That means TONS of room for negotiation (unlike the guy that bought a condo with 10% down at the peak and couldn't sell at a loss if he wanted to, since he's have to write a check).

So the question becomes - how desperate are they? Only way to find out is to give them an "offensive" offer. Good luck.

sanba: the apartment as it's priced is not in your price range, which makes this easy for you. Since you can't afford the ask anyway, offer at a significant discount. If they say no, you haven't lost anything. Plus you, and all the rest of us who read these posts, will have useful information regarding the seller's reaction for use in the future.

Thanks for the advise. I think you're right. I'm going to wait a little bit anyway because I'm sure they will have to lower the asking and once they do it I will throw a lowball offer and see their reaction.
I also like the apts on 114 E 72nd St but with such a high maintenance I'm sure prices will come down too. I wonder why the maintenance is so high for those coops anyway.
Anyway I might check a couple of O/H this weekend to get a sense on how things are doin'
I really appreciate everybody's feedback

newbuyer99- Why would a person who put down 50% or $1.1m have more negotiation room than a person who put down 10%? On the contrary, if I were to have put down $1.1m of my hard earned money, I would no way sell it for a loss. More likely, I would hold on to it and ride it out especially since it appears I can financially do it. After all, it seems like I could afford to given how much money I had to put down to initally buy the place. But for this particular coop, he paid $2.2m for it so there is still some negotiation room based on what he is asking (assuming he did not spend money on renovations). My recommendation on low balling offers? Chances are slim it will succeed so low ball plenty of properties and see what sticks. Problem is, it sounds like you are quite particular in what you want. Finding an apt in Manhattan is like looking for a wife...you can't have it all...especially given your limited budget! Pssst...don't tell my wife. ;)

Special K seems to have it right. Park avenue is heading south of 2k /sqft. 1,700 near 3rd is a but too high. I think most are missing one critical point when comparing the potential of future real estate markdowns to the '88-'93 time period. The stock market cratered in '87 and put in a bottom. Many asset classes traded "ok" to "good" during the real estate weakness during that time.
This time around EVERY asset class has been hit. Jobs, earnings, bonuses, bonds, stocks, art, jewelry. There has been NOWHERE to hide. A few, very few, may have been smart enough to be in cash. God bless them and have fun shopping. This market won't even begin to start trading again until realtors and sellers start ignoring the '06 and '07 runup, price offers at '05 prices and HOPE, HOPE that bidders appear somewhere within reason of their offers. Newbuyer99, do your wallet a favor, protect it wirth both hands till spring of '09. PATIENCE is not only a virtue, but a winning strategy.

sanba - as a broker, I would say don't wait for them to lower the price before lowballing. No matter what the price is reduced to, the sellers will still have their original asking price in mind when weighing any offers. If you go in with an offer right now you will find out a great deal of information, and the broker will likely come to you directly with any future reductions before they are advertised.

There is no danger in making an offer - it's not legally binding and you can rescind it at any time. But demonstrating interest and an ability to close on a deal (even at a lowball number!) puts you ahead of any other buyers, and first in line for the fire sale, should it come.

BigApple - what I meant was that they CAN sell for less given how much they put down. If they only put 10% down, they'd walk away from the apartment before selling for less than they owe on it and having to write the bank a check.

You're focused on whether they WANT to sell at a loss, which is different question. No one wants to, it's a question of the factors pushing/forcing them to sell, which I don't know.

I'd say a fair offer in a down market but not one where abusive prices have to be taken to clear a sale, $1200 per square foot, if the place is really that amazingly redone- $1250 absolutely top.

I calculated the square footage at 1787. That's subject to minor revision given ballparking of the sizes from the floorplan. So I would not buy for any higher than $2.25 million, which means you start quite a bit lower especially given the high maintenance.

You're also on the wrong side of the street for PS6. Whether you have kids or not, that makes a difference in the pricing.

I think duplexes are overrated - you lose sense of spaciousness relative to simplexes of similar size.

but let me add, I think it goes lower and you should wait.

Thanks for your comment and advice
I think your right. The place might not have the f2 they quote. Taking into consideration the renovation, the price per f2 would be around the $1250 range.

And about the PS6 issue, you're definitely right on that one. It does make a difference in pricing.

I going to keep looking for new inventory and continue to wait on this one to see what happens

Sanba, now that the ask on 170 East 79th has been lowered to $2.5m, are you thinking about jumping in with an offer? Given the deterioration in the market in the last several weeks, one can only wonder if a price closer to (or below) $2mm wouldn't be possible.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/345215-coop-170-east-79th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

I would if I could have it for $2M but seems that the owners are not willing to accept that.
They must be really desperate to sell because they had an open house yesterday from 10-6pm and again today.
I might go again today and check it out for the third time.
Th only thing that holds me back is the fact that the maintenance is high for a part-time doorman building and it's not PS 6 .
What do you think?

Can't hurt to look and make an offer. As many have observed, the pool of people who will put down 50% on a $2M apartment has shrunken significantly, so I think you've probably got a lot of leverage. If they're asking $2.5, I've got to think they'll take less, question is how much less. It may be that you have to wait longer to get it for $2M.

As for the part-time doorman and not being in PS6, those are lifestyle questions you have to answer for yourself. Assuming you're planning to stay there for a while and send kids to elementary school, you need to make sure you're comfortable with both of those. If not, may make sense to move on, regardless of price.

Have you checked out some of the other threads on maintenance? Hard to know what to make of it (e.g., is it due to a large underlying mortgage, high operating expenses, etc?) Since higher maintenance effectively makes your investment in the apartment subject to greater leverage, it would seem to increase the risk of deteriorating apartment value in a down market.

170 east 79th was bought for $2.1 in 2004. It's a big psychological hurdle for sellers to agree to an offer under their own purchase amount. This apt. may very well end up going for under 2 million, but I think it will take a few more months of desperation for the sellers to capitulate.

The $2.5MM ask looks a lot less ridiculous than the $3.3MM ask did.

I don't know about the psychology, but they're already almost certainly losing money after transaction costs and renovations. I agree with the others - IF you want, it, offer what you'd pay, low as it might be, make it clear you're serious, and see what happens.

Was 170 East 79th renovated before or after it was sold in 2005? This should not impact what you would be willing to pay for it. But in terms of seller psychology, if the renovation was post-2005 then they have already accepted that they are taking a significant loss on the apartment.

happyrenter, that's what I was trying to say. I had assumed from sanba's posts that the renovation was done by current owners after their 2004 purchase. Might be wrong, though.

The actual owners did the renovation.It's in pretty good shape.
I tried to get into the O/H yesterday but it seems it was a mistake and there was no open house.
My broker was going to try to find out what happened.
Besides the fact that it's a part time doorman and not a PS6 building, the living room is not big enough to be a living/dining and having 3 kids I need a separate family room as a place to watch TV and for the kids to hang around.
I think I'm going to pass in this one.
Thanks everyone for there comments!

So it sold for $2.15m, same as they paid in 2004. Makes for an interesting comp. 1200 per s.f. for a totally new Classic 7.