Question: Prices for Prime Brooklyn

Junkman, are you saying i am irrational?

I would rather live in the Toren, period. This apartment is lovely but some of us don't want to live in a pre war building. I lived in a 1890 building for 28 years now and I'm ready for the 21st century. I want a pool, outdoor landscaped private area, library, sauna and glass walls that overlook Manhattan on the 33rd floor. Call me crazy but I'm crazy in love.

The only thing that has tempered my unabashed enthusiasm for the Toren is the fact that CitiPoint is delayed to who knows when and my Nets moving over is in question. I live in the Heights and the Toren is a 10-12 minute walk from there. Portland is a nice street and I love Fort Greene and its restaurants but it is a bit more isolated in my opinion. I have many more options with respect to trains on Flatbush extension and I like the growth potential of the Toren in 10 years. Normally I would have said 5 but times have changed.

Plus having a garage in the building is a big plus and I hear finding a parking space in the area is brutal.

Got to admit, though, you found a beauty there in a great neighborhood. If I was looking for brownstone living I might even consider that apartment at $695 psf. I would, at minimum, go for a visit. The dog run across the street is fantastic when you can let dog off the lease and the people making up the neighborhood is a great mixture of super people.

Take care, Junkman. :.)

All good points. I disagree about the subways since both are about equal distance to the M,R,B,Q at Dekalb but I guess if you need the 2,3,4,5 and work downtown and cant transfer at 14th st then Toren has a better subway situation.

The condo at South Portland ave was the condo of the day on brownstoner.com today for anyone that cares to take a look.
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/01/condos_of_the_d_65.php

> Citipoint is delayed to who knows when

But you told me to bank on it!

;-)

nyc10022,

If anyone uses the word "bank" in a sentence, they are suspect.

The word "bank" is the nastiest word in the English language. And banker, well, a guillotine would be too lenient a punishment.

Back to your point, I was wrong. Fact is, if I listened to you and Meredith Whitney the bank analyst from Oppenheimer, my portfolio would be in much better shape. I got slaughtered today, in the market, and all my hubris has vanished. I am humbled and bow to thee.

Interesting discussion but I hope all folks who consider living in Greenpoint are well educated on the oil spill there.

There's a cancer cluster in Greenpoint, and the suspected culprit is the oil slick beneath Greenpoint that seeped into the groundwater from Newtown Creek.

http://www.riverkeeper.org/campaign.php/pollution/we_are_doing/805-the-greenpoint-oil-spill-on-ne

There's lots of stuff about it on the Internet, this is just the first hit from the google search.

If you want to live there anyway, fine, but I really think you ought to demand a big discount for living the risk.

Greenpoint is lovely but I'd rather not get breast cancer.

> If anyone uses the word "bank" in a sentence, they are suspect.

Yeah, I pretty much thought that all aloneg. ;-)

> The word "bank" is the nastiest word in the English language. And banker, well, a guillotine would
> be too lenient a punishment.

Nowadays, sure...

> Back to your point, I was wrong. Fact is, if I listened to you and Meredith Whitney the bank analyst
> from Oppenheimer, my portfolio would be in much better shape. I got slaughtered today, in the
> market, and all my hubris has vanished. I am humbled and bow to thee.

It will all work out, we've been through these things before. Coulda, shouda, woulda.

In the end, you looked for value. And you didn't get 100% sucked in to the investment hype. Hopefully you can still afford your place and enjoy it.

BTW, what did you get slaughtered in? Were you short?
I picked up some SSOs yesterday, and shaved a little off today (keep some powder dry).

Oh, sorry, you wrote that yesterday.

Hopefully you held on...

I sold both my Corporate Bond funds (Vanguard and T Rowe) so I would have money to buy Oil (USO) and 2 oil and natural gas stocks. Bought the oil but didn't pull the trigger on SLB when it was down a penny and then watched it go up 5.86%. Devon Energy was up 2% quickly and I thought it would come down and it shot up 8.47% without me. Bummer.

I'm almost fully invested except for the money for those 2 stocks. I'll be patient and wait for another opp.

Take care.

Good luck. And, yes, its all about the patience...

One that I have been following for a while entered contract today:
1BR on Henry street between sackett and degraw - http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/329232-condo-492-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn?email=true

This thing sat on the market without a price adjustment forever. I told myself that 400 would be a generous price. Should be interesting to see how much it sold for.

I always think it's interesting when something suddenly enters contract after months and months, with no price adjustment or come-hither renovations.

Either the seller's dream buyer finally walked into 492 Henry, or it sold for a lot less than ask.

What about this part of Brooklyn? What do you know about Bedford Avenue? One stop from Manhattan. The price is $526psf. Co-Op with low monthly maintainance. Is it priced right? Is it a decent neighborhood?

http://www.leiterrealtygroup.com/listings/search_.php?op=mi&id=419

i live a block from the driggs entrance of the bedford L stop, and it's damn convenient and fast. i can get anywhere in 20 minutes. best time was 10 minutes door to door to grand central. no one would take the L to 8th avenue to go to west midtown - you'd switch to the r/w at union square. i have lived in cobble hill which was pretty convenient, but i have also lived in prospect heights and park slope and those commutes were long and sucked. i moved to williamsburg for the easy commute for one reason. i also use the jmz and the g too. the jmz is really good for downtown. 3 trains means no waiting, and it's never crowded. i like to walk, so don't know how many other people would walk that far to get it, but i don't mind. i also walk home from soho where i work which is about 50 minutes over the williamsburg bridge.

i lived for a total of 8 years or so in manhattan in several different hoods uptown and downtown and never like any area particularly. find brooklyn so much cooler and the restaurants and bars are great as well as way cheaper.

I don't know if this is priced "correct" but this one came across my email today.
2br at 45 Pineapple street asking 785,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/392545-coop-45-pineapple-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

This really seems like quite a nice apartment. Anyone hazard a guess as to what it is "worth"?

jrus,

I don't know 45 Pineapple that well, but looks like a nice unit at an ok price. 60 Pineapple tends to have more units on the market at any given time. I don't see any closing prices at 45 for 2BRs, so a bit tough to gauge what they've gone for. I don't think this is an elevator building, so that impacts value on a 4th floor unit.

It is an elevator building (in fact, I've heard that apartments adjacent to the elevator can be loud). Pineapple Street isn't its usual charming self these days, as a long construction shed takes up half the block on the opposite side of the street. Incredibly convenient location (2/3/a/c all one block away).

Still, I think BH needs to come down a smidge. I know, it's apples to oranges (or pineapples) but you can find similar apartments on the Upper West Side -
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/375258-condo-203-west-90th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/386493-coop-107-west-86th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/346154-coop-878-west-end-avenue-manhattan-valley-new-york

^^oops, forgot to mention Im a broker. None of these are my listings.

A new sale closed in prime brooklyn. I had been following this one for a while. Should be interesting to see what the final price was.

2br at 44 Prospect Park West #D7 - the last listing price was $699, from an initial list of 779 about 3 months prior.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/359874-coop-44-prospect-park-west-park-slope-brooklyn

I really liked this apartment. Great location and I like the layout as well. If each of the rooms was about 1ft wider and longer it would be pretty close to perfect for my needs.

Hey all! A new case study: 2-bed co-op in Carroll Gardens $499K. WIth 20% down at 6%, monthly mortgage and maintenance comes to $2869.
2 Bed rental in same bldg listed for $2800/mo.
Unit for sale in better condition with wbf & better light; rental has garden access.
Thoughts?
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/392891-condo-113-carroll-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

Right, forgot again: I'm a broker, those aren't my listings.

Whoops - that's a condo building, not a co-op. Okay, I'll stop posting now...

To call that place a 2BR is pretty generous. Proximity to the BQE is a factor as well. I don't know what this will sell for, but I'd be surprised if the rental went for more than $2400.

(2400/2800)*499k = 428k I guess.

tina, not a bad find. What do the unabated taxes look like? That does make a difference. However, if you know down the price a bit (even something quite reasonable, like $470k) and get a good rate on a 30-year fixed (I believe I saw a WSJ article mentioning conforming 30-year loans are now possible at 3.625%, which is the lowest ever, I think), you can probably get this place for less than actual rent - the $2800 is asking of course. Definitely takes a little luck and ingenuity, but this is pretty close to equilibrium it seems.

Here's a few rentals that I would view as comparable in the same area:
2nd place "1000sqft" 2br - $2400 - http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/448794-rental-93-2nd-place-carroll-gardens-brooklyn
2br on sackett for $2200 - http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/474112-rental-236-sackett-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

Okay - Streeteasy has it listed as a condo, but it's actually a co-op. So there is no tax abatement to worry about. But you do have to contend with the fact that it may be harder to get financing - the big banks are loath to lend on these smaller co-ops at the moment.

j_r_u_s: This apartment actually passes for a "true 2-bedroom" here in South Brooklyn. Many are like the 2nd Place one you cite above, which I believe is the c-shaped type, with the second "bedroom" accessible only through the larger bedroom. The fact that your kid/roommate doesn't have to pass through your room to get to the toilet is a big selling point. 236 Sackett has 2 narrowish apartments per floor, and as such isn't perfectly comparable to a 2br brownstone floor-through. I think it's more of a railroad layout - I would have to check.

If I'm thinking like an appraiser, I'd use the unit in the same building as the best rental comp when figuring rent/own ratios.

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

I saw this place when it was asking $549,000, and I think they did the right thing by chopping the price pretty significantly. The drawback of location was pretty serious (for many of today's buyers, including me -- not so much for the BQE, but for the walk to transportation) and the place is small. It's a floor-through, yeah, but that's not a deep building.

Tina's right that it's a good layout with nice light, and it has a W/D in the unit. All pluses.

On the downside, the 2nd BR was narrow, really tight for anything but one small child's stuff. And the kithen was functional, but nothing I'd call nice.

And just one more point -- I think CG is overpriced/overhyped in general, and the bloom is coming off the rose as buyers become uber-practical. It's a great neighborhood, but not convenient to Manhattan (particularly an outlier like this, which is on the western border). In the 2BR market, most of the new buyers, I'd think, need to commute.

I agree with junkman-r-u-s that both sale and rental prices in CG will feel pressure from competition in more convenient places like Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill and even Brooklyn Heights. Carroll Gardens is a fantastic neighborhood as long as you don't need to get anywhere else. Its neighbors to the north are equally great neighborhoods (and a short, pleasant walk to CG), but have the big plus of more convenience.

I think Carroll Gardens is trying to hang onto a 'premium' that is ceasing to exist. That was my first thought with this place when I saw the ask of $549,000 -- 'not at that size, and not at that location.' Maybe in 2007.

My last point -- which I didn't make very well -- is that the rental 'comp' in that building is outrageous at $2,800/month. I'd think twice about $2,000/month for that location in this market.

JKB is absolutely right about the premium that is ceasing to exist - it's finally settling in all over Brooklyn, which has been lagging behind Manhattan for a variety of reasons. But I disagree about the location - for me, it couldn't be more convenient (it's a four-minute walk to my office). The blocks between Hicks and Henry tend to be very quiet, and the housing stock is generally solid if not fancy. I have buyers who live and work in the area for whom this represents a significant move in the right direction, price-wise. WIll they buy it? Not right now. But it's getting closer.

The best recently closed comp for this place is 588 Henry: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/791966
Last asking price $475K - sold for $410K. Yes, the sellers were highly motivated by a relocation, but still. I think those numbers bring the apartments within range of the people who will really appreciate them, which would make for a pleasant real estate market indeed.

"I would rather live in the Toren, period. This apartment is lovely but some of us don't want to live in a pre war building. I lived in a 1890 building for 28 years now and I'm ready for the 21st century. I want a pool, outdoor landscaped private area, library, sauna and glass walls that overlook Manhattan on the 33rd floor. Call me crazy but I'm crazy in love. "

I think I saw that movie about the future. A pretty high tech fortress, with a moat separating it from the commoners.

;-)

Until they move those projects...

Yes but didn't you used to get a risk premium for owning, versus renting?

In exchange for tying up your equity and paying out for upkeep and maintenance -- and taking on the risk that something could be wrong in the physical structure, like a crack in the foundation, as well as the risk that stupid politicians could jack up the tax rate -- in exchange for all this, the owner tradtionally got a sizeable discount in his monthly outflow versus what a renter had to pay for a lease.

Why are we looking for "market stabilization" to occur at the point where owners and renters have the same monthly cost? If we have a true "reversion to the mean," the market will be stabilized once buyers get a significant discount to monthly rent.

Tina, I'm sure you're right that it's a good place for the right buyer. Specifically - as you mentioned - someone who works in Brooklyn. I often think that that would really open doors for where one could buy in our beloved Brownstone Brooklyn.

If you walk to work, proximity to the subway becomes a lot less important. I can only envy your 'walk to work' lifestyle. Nice.

Still, if that's a prerequisite to buying right now, it creates a much smaller pool. That has to affect prices.

The walk to the F from that place isn't that bad. 10-minutes max.

The walk to Borough Hall from there is around 15min. It's a bit of a walk, but not unbearable, except in the winter.

> I think Carroll Gardens is trying to hang onto a 'premium' that is ceasing to exist.

A premium over what?

A premium over comparable brownstone Brooklyn neighborhoods.

Gocha... didn't understand what you meant.

But, 1) not sure they are totally comparable.
and
2) CH used to be CHEAPER (at least the cheaper brother to Brooklyn Heights).

CH got hot for a reason (and close to BH prices)

1) Better schools than the other brownstone neighborhoods... we're talking near the tops in Brooklyn, that Kane Street school...
2) Good (but not best) transportation - especially as you get closer to Atlantic...
3) Better food - Smith Street is brooklyn's culinary broadway. Not even close when comparing Michelin stars etc.
4) Court street is one of the nicer thoroughfares
5) Closer to Manhattan than anywhere but BH and some parts of Fort Green - I know folks who walk to downtown over the bridge
6) Almost best housing stock - BH might be a little better condition, but CH has freakish amounts of historic district, and some of the most charming blocks overall

and what is the competition? BH of course, but schools stink and its a neighbor, so won't be that different from each other. Carroll Gardens also nearby, but it gets crappier as you get closer to the BQE turn... and transportation harder.

Park Slope sure, but its mich bigger, further out, less consistent in housing stock, schools good but not as good, food fairly mediocre (particularly relative to size), lots of spots border on some pretty blech areas.

And Fort Green, etc... you're still talking about neighborhoods that still neeed MAJOR gentrification to get to the level of a CH.

So, there is a premium yes, and thats a newer thing, but the advantages still hold. I've said for a while that its probably my favorite off-Manhattan Brooklyn neighborhood.

nyc10022, I agree with everything you said about Cobble Hill. But my 'premium' comment was about Carroll Gardens (CG, CH, easy to conflate), not Cobble Hill.

My point was that Carroll Gardens is a great neighborhood, but not very convenient (a point you make, too). Still, it became a 'brand' of sorts in recent years, and I'm not sure what justified some of the crazy prices the neighborhood was getting (momentum, it seems -- there were people willing to buy and rent at those prices).

The asks (both sale and rental) at 113 Carroll St. that Tina noted above was, to me, an example of people depending on that 'brand' premium (especially the 2 BR asking $2800/month to rent - what?)

In the current climate, I just don't think demand for Carroll Gardens will hold up as well as Cobble Hill, Brooklyn Heights and the better parts of Boerum Hill. Don't get me wrong -- we'd buy in Carroll Gardens for the right price. Prices just need to come down for us to be willing to give up an extra 30-40 minutes a day to commuting (and that's generous unless you work near an F train stop in Manhattan).

If you work in Brooklyn, work from home or you don't need to commute every day, that's a different equation, obviously.

Oh, dammit, sorry!

I agree that CG is inferior. Absolutely 100% on all your logic. It is not, as many folks think, just the extended part of CH. Its worse in a lot of ways.

BUT, its always been cheaper than CH and BH.... which I would consider the comparable neighborhoods... so not sure I agree on the "premium" idea of ever being true.

"In the current climate, I just don't think demand for Carroll Gardens will hold up as well as Cobble Hill, Brooklyn Heights and the better parts of Boerum Hill."

I agree... BUT it was not at a premium to CH and BH...

Just 3 weeks later, the ask at 113 Carroll is $100k lower at 450k.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/392891-coop-113-carroll-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

Putting 20% down brings total cost of ownership at around $2300/month. This is getting pretty close on the rent vs buy math.

That place needs another $100K off, seriously! Did you see how small is the second bedroom?

Yeah, IMO its a 1br + small office or nice walk in closet....

I've watched these cuts, too. This is one of those true 1 BRs in which they cut the large 1 BR 2/3 and 1/3 to make a 2 BR. Sellers are motivated, though. There are lots of other places like this out there in 'prime' Brooklyn that aren't being nearly as aggressive.

Wonder what the story is.

@junkman..its getting close the right ratio...until that ratio shifts because rents fall...$450k is not the right price for this place. It's a walkup, the view and roof rights give you an unblocked view of....the BQE (which is a horrible highway to live next to due to trucks etc.

Jeez, $450K for this place is whats still wrong with the RE market in NYC and why we are still behind the rest of the country in the crash.

While JKB is correct that others have not followed, it's only a matter of time. A more important ratio nowadays, aside from rent/purchase, is income/purchase. Although NYC is in its own galaxy with regard to said ratio, we still need to come down quite a bit to reflect current income reality and bank lending standards.

Carroll Garden was a very attractive neighborhood when Manhattan was selling at $900/$1000 sq feet and up but now you can find decent places in Chelsea or the West Village for $700/$800 sq foot with price heading further down, it makes absolutely no sense to buy in Carroll Garden unless prices adjust severely. I'm amazed at the number of properties in Carrol garden that are still advertised at a price over $600/sq feet. Ridiculous!

Yeah, there have been a number of Jr4 in Manhattan trading for 399K that are roughly the same size as this, with higher maintenance due to elevator and doorman. 450K is ridiculous. When it's all said and done, it'll go for 280K.

225 East 36th # 9 O is one example.

I would pick this apt anytime over the one in Carroll Garden:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/354700-coop-745-east-6th-street-east-village-new-york

I'd rather live in Carroll Gardens than the EV, any day. There are some things a certain neighborhood offers that you can't get in another, regardless the housing stock. Some folks are more interested in the neighborhood (me- I live in Cobble Hill), while others care more about the apt (I have a friend with a large apt, but it's like a mile from the closest train- I'd never want to there, no matter what the apt looks like). Anyway, I think the EV is mostly crap. But, I'm not too impressed with the apt at 113 Carroll, either.

It looks like the CG apartment is right on the BQE. With the MTA's proposed service cuts, I'd be seriously nervous about buying in that neighborhood. I have friends whom I doubt I'll be visiting on weekends any more; I already have to take 3 trains to get to their apartments on weekends.

My guess is that 113 Carroll will close for between $400K and $450K. I'd wager it sells to a couple with a pre-school aged child. When you look at how freaked out parents are about the waiting lists for zoned public schools in Manhattan (see today's paper - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/nyregion/01kindergarten.html), you can understand why prices in CG/CH remain high. I agree that for many buyers this does not represent a value compared to the East Village, Kips Bay, what have you. But for terrified parents for whom the alternative is private school (at $25K-40K per year), these apartments are appealing.

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)