Sale at 4 East 95th Street #7D

Rhino, I would also say that it's not entirely clear we aren't already close to that. There are no obvious comps for the building since there are no recorded sales in the D line. Perhaps someone else knows the building, but it appears that the B line has a very similar flooplan, is only very slightly larger, and has an additional half bath. So it is a more valuable apartment--not knowing the building I can't say how much, but B-line 3rd floor apartment sold for 2.545 million, and I don't think that apartment is worth half a million more than the 7th floor D-line. Am I wrong? Even though it faces the inside of the block, rather than the street, at the 7th floor it would clear the townhouses and the view should be decent.

So I think we can reasonably start from the asking price of $2.1. 36% off of $2.1 would be $1.366 million. An offer of $1.366 might be rejected, but in this market you never know.

I like your style. I think you basically have to draw a line in the sand and make offers... But likely they will not come close to being hit until next summer, which is fine.

Yeah, I'm not so sure. I sold my apartment in 2007, I would say very soon after what turns out to have been the peak, and made a great price. But if I owned it now and wanted to sell, I would be tempted by almost any offer in the realm of reasonable. If I owned that apartment I'd be thinking...this is an apartment at the very edge of the Upper East Side, with a somewhat hefty maintenance, questionable views, only 2 baths instead of 2.5 in many classic sixes. Bigger apartments in better areas are not available for, say, $2.1. If those come down to 1.7, where is that going to push this?

If you had to guess, Rhino, what do you think it would take to get this apartment now?

I think the default guess after a fresh reduction is say 7% lower than ask. I mean they should take $1.4mm but I don't think they would. They might take $1.55mm.

I think you're insufficiently optimistic. Or insufficiently pessimistic, depending on your perspective. They would be more or less insane not to accept $1.55 million. With all those cuts they must want to sell so I would be reasonably sure they'd take 1.5.

Also add to the list of cons, that its not PS 6. The issue in down markets is that sellers are always 10% above the market on the way down. I have been playing with the broker over at that $1.4mm ask at 16 E. 96th. My sense is that seller would take $1.2mm which is not bad, but I just think apartments like that will be $1.0mm by next summer, so why bother. Why seriously bother until the momentum is positive again. Ideal is to buy in the equivalent of 1997-1998, with apartments still cheap but the stock market and financial industry booming.

Really the guess of whether they'd take $1.55 or $1.50 is an issue of their mindset, which we can't know to that kind of precision.

I saw the apartment a while back. It is a charming apartment in a beautiful building in a great location. The apartment has nice views from the back of the building. The issues with the apartment are that it is small ( too small for a growing family ), needs updating and the building requires high liquidity after the purchase ( perhaps 50% of asking price after 50% down ).

Thanks for the info EAO, that is helpful. I think a lot of families would be able to muddle through with 1500 square feet, but point taken nonetheless.

The owners have a young son and have been looking to move on for a while now. I think if you are able to meet the financial requirements, they would be willing to strike a good deal. I believe the financial requirements are what has kept this apartment from selling.

Apartments in this market that need updating is the kiss of death. So not only do you need $800k in the bank but you need money to make renovations. Yeesh.

Exactly. The bathrooms and kitchen are passable but need a rennovation. Probably $100- $150K in work. This and the financial requirements have been what has led to all those price reductions. Had the apartment just been 20-25% down and 1-2 years liquidity, it would have been gone by now ( despite the need for updating).

The problem with the big down payment requirement buildings is no one has the cash. The problem in the ones without is banks won't lend. Ouch. Look out below. I guess a reasonable offer on this for someone too anxious for the market to run its course is about $1.35-1.40mm.

Too bad I would never live on the Upper East Side, that apartment would be perfect for me: classic six means an office, a guest room, prewar, needs a bit of updating. Everything I want. In the vicinity of Greenwich Village a similar apartment right now would run at least $2 million.

Be agressive and offer Happyrenters initial recommendation of $1.366mil. You have nothing to lose in this market. Building and location are terrific but the apt. is small and very dated. The real problem is that re-sale is going to be tough - this area is probably 90% young families and the apt. is just too small for a family with more than 1 child. For that reason I think it would be a poor investment even at a discounted price. I think this has a lot to do with it not moving.

I disagree on the size- it's a nice size and can easily be fine for 2 kids. I think the requirements and the dating are what's hindering the sale.

I agree with cccharley that it's very doable with 2 kids, at least on paper.

My issue would be the financial requirements. If I had $1.5MM cash sitting around (50% downpayment plus whatever to satisfy the board), I'd certainly be looking for a bigger/nicer apartment. Hell, I don't have anywhere near that, and I still am...

Having visited the apartment ( several times ), I can tell you it is a very small six. In this market, you can find a larger six that would more easily accomodate a family. The location and building are great but when space is a priority ( as it is for me with children ) there are better values on the market. The current owners have a 4 year old and have clearly outgrown the space. In this market, you want to move into an apartment that you can be in for a while, not one that you have to leave once your children approach Kindergarten.

EAO - they must require a lot of space. I know families who live in much less space with 2 kids. Each child would have his own room in this apartment. Wow I have one child and could probably live in a 1000 sf forever. Can't believe that with 1500 sf it's too small for a 4 yo - maybe he's a handful - maybe they want to move to the suburbs. Maybe they can't afford private school and the zoned district is not good in Carnegie Hill. Is it really 1500 sf or is the floorplan incorrect?

cccharley - how is size not an issue? If you have a boy and a girl - where does the second child sleep?? The office is too tiny and is connected to the kitchen - doesn't even look like there is a door between them. Any way you look at it, this is not a family apt. One other thing that bugs me is that the kitchen is right off the entrance hall.

stealth1, its a little aggressive to suggest that 1500 isn't enough space for four people in Manhattan. The office could be spread out a little and closed off to the kitchen.

Not trying to be aggresssive Rhino - just my opinion - it is only doable if you have two children of the same sex and they can share a BR. Otherwise I just don't see where the space is for the third BR. Also, to be perfectly honest (and I am not being aggressive) most people buying in this neighborhood would look at the office as a possible "maids/nanny" room, not a third bedroom. A staff room is important if both parents are working. Simply put, this is not a "family" apt. in the strict sense of the word.

I see what you mean. Its a compromise apartment. I'd sooner move out of Manhattan than settle on something like this, but my wife might disagree...or we might end up with two girls. Before the financial markets imploded and I thought at least steady money would not be at issue, yes the target was say 1,800 sqft with 3 real bedrooms. My wife won't be working though, so the staff issue is less important. Hopefully the true 3 beds will eventually go to $1.5mm or so. Some around in the $1.9-range, now....not in Carnegie Hill but other nabes.

Enough of the sarcasm Rhino - thats what this Board is about - sharing of ideas. Actually I had my wife take a look at the floorplan and she came up with a workable solution in 3 seconds to making this apt. work for a family of 4. Utilize the office as a smaller dining area and turn the dining room into the third bedroom. No staff room but if you are going to compromise that would be where to do it.

Look, I grew up in NYC in a fabulous 3600 square foot, 10 room prewar apartment that my parents bought for 50k in the 1970s, but that is NOT the norm for families, even affluent families on the Upper East Side. I have a lot of friends who went to Dalton or Trinity and then Amherst and Brown and grew up in prime Manhattan areas in apartments this size with another sibling. A classic six has always, always been considered a family apartment. Some people may want more space, and if they can afford it, then go for it. But to say that a 1500 square foot Classic Six in Carnegie Hill which, with very minimal reconfiguration, has two perfectly decent bedrooms for kids, is not a family apartment is simply out of touch with reality.

Seriously there was no sarcasm intended at all. I really meant all that. I basically agree with you that a real 3rd bed is ideal. I would need to see this place to know if its workable long term. My hunch, which seems to jive with your wife, is that it could be workable.

Disagree with you totally happyrenter - and what does Dalton,Trinity, Amherst and Brown have to do with any of this??? What exactly is your point?

My point is that it is elitist beyond belief to argue that a classic six is not a family apartment. Even the 'elites' in our city, if they aren't richer than Croesus, are generally happy to live with two kids in a classic six. If you disagree with me totally, that means you think it is normal for families of four in New York City to live in 10 room prewar apartments in prime areas? I don't know what crowd you run with but it must be a very narrow slice of the city, and even a very small slice of 'elite' Manhattan.

As I said, if you want more space and can afford it, go for it. I'm a single guy in my late twenties and I want to buy a Classic 5 or 6 in the village for me to live in alone, so believe me, I understand the desire for space. But just because you want more space does not mean that a 1500sq foot Classic Six is not a family apartment. These have always been considered family apartments.

Yes, I think by definition families have lived in classic 6s. I think stealth's point is anywhere but Manhattan that would be considered a little tight and compromising. That said, children all over the map share bedrooms. While its small, if a maid can live in a maid's room, then a child can as well. If children are same sex, they can share and use the maids as a place to set up desks and do homework and whatnot, its really without question in the end that its possible and not a hardship post.

Rhino, that's a reasonable point although even out of manhattan it is not uncommon for families to live in houses or apartments this size. The point stealth tried to make was that this is not a family apartment, and as you correctly stated, that's wrong "without question."

happyrenter - don't put words in my mouth - "that means you think it is normal for families of four in NYC to live in 10 room prewar apts...." NO, I do not think that. There is a lot in between the floor plan at 4 East 95th and a 10 room apt. Living in manhattan with 3 young children I can assure you I know whats out there. 4 East 95th is a small classic 6 with minimal opporutnity for wiggle room unless you give up the dining room and staff room. I stand by my initial comment that in this neighborhood you will have a hard time on re-sale if thats the way you go. I know what sells in this very family oriented neighborhood.

stealth, you just told me that you "disagreed with me totally." well, if you disagreed with me 'totally' that meant you disagreed with my point about ten room apartments. i did not put words into your mouth. if you want to amend your words, that's fine.

again, you have three young kids, not two. with three kids this apartment becomes more difficult. you are overly bearish on this one apartment, perhaps out of unwarranted bullishness on the market in general. this apartment isn't selling because the market is in free-fall, not because it can't accommodate a family.

Just a final comment on 4 east 95th. HappyRenter does not have children so he would not understand the most fundmantal and obvious reason that this apt. doesn't work for a family with it's current floorplan. A reason, I am certain, that anyone with more than one child WOULD understand completely. How do you justify giving one child a closet as a bedroom (ie the office) and the other child a normal sized bedroom????

umm, stealth, are you insane? what sort of spoiled children are you raising? you put the older kid in the bigger room, and when he or she goes to college you move the younger kid. i don't need to have kids to understand this, i have BEEN a kid. all my friends who were raised in classic sixes lived perfectly happily with one kid having a bigger room. It's not exactly an insufferable hardship. You can justify putting an ADULT person (a nanny or housekeeper) in a "closet," as you said earlier with regards to the importance of a staff room, but you can't justify putting a CHILD in such a room?

Even in my parents' apartment, my sister had a big room with a beautiful view, and I had a combined maidsoom/laundry room that looked across a courtyard at a brick wall. Who cares?

It's funny what my little post got into...that said, happyrenter I couldn't agree with you more. And stealth, if anyone is buying for quick resale in this market they are high on crack. My early curiosity was just where people thought this would better. The 'when' is probably at the earliest next summer.

RHINO86 /happyrenter - to each his own. Just to clarify - I am not talking about a quick resale - this apt. as currently configured would never move quickly as a "family apt." - no matter what economic enviornment we are in. I think the listing proves my point - it has been desperately reduced to reflect the economic times - STILL is not moving - despite being a great building in a great neighorhood. Facts are facts folks!

Stealth if you don't think this apartment would have moved quickly to parents with two kids a year or so ago, to each their own right back at ya.

LOL stealth, what this "proves" is that the market is crashing and nothing is selling. it certainly does NOT prove, by any stretch, that a classic six is not a family apartment. and it certainly does not prove that you have to put all your kids in equally sized bedrooms while stuffing your adult housekeeper in a 'closet.'

i would also add that the location is not quite as spectacular as some of these posts suggest. it is not zoned for a good school, and is in an area notably lacking in restaurants and many services.

Happyrenter, PS 198 is not great, but the apartment is a short 1 or 2 blocks to lots of good stuff on Madison Ave.

Madison at 95th? I wouldn't say that's 'lots of good stuff.' but look, it's a fine location, just let's not pretend we are talking about an apartment at 83rd and 5th.

No one is pretending that. Before you hit 90th, there is Yura, Island, some baby stores, the entrance to the Reservoir. This post has really degraded into a semantic bullshit fest.

I live very close by and again HappyRenter I disagree with you. Neighborhood is great - relatively quiet and very family oriented. Services and restaurants are more than fine in my estimation. Good school district is not a crucial issue - majority living in the neighborhood are utilizing one of the many private schools in the area. This apt. is not selling because it is too small for what the majoirty of buyers are looking for. Price is getting way down there and still it sits. BTW happyrenter, our housekeeper is not"stuffed" in a closet - you really are "over the top".

Oh and Rhino85 I am betting that you don't have children yet either. When you do, you will remember this post.

This is my last post in here, because it has devolved into silliness, but you stealth, you said that it would be unfair to the point of inconceivability to put one of your kids i a maids room. You described the maids room as a closet. You said a maids room is important for people who need live in help. Conclusion: a child cannot live in a "closet" but a housekeeper can. You keep accusing me over unfair responses when all I do is repeat your own words back to you.

I should add that if you think school district is "not crucial" you really don't understand real estate. Clearly the person who buys this apartment will be sending their kids to private school. But the value of the apartment is significantly reduced by the loss of the public school option. Take a look at the different closing prices of apartments across the street from each other but in different school districts and you will understand your major misconception.

In any case, let's bid adieu to this thread. Adieu.

happyrenter - just for your edification a maids room is not necessarily for the staff to "live" in. In many cases it is a small room with a bed for the staff to put their pocketbook, coat etc. and to perhaps lie down when they are working overtime. Occassionally it is used for an overnight stay. You are truly clueless.

Stealth I have a child. I would drool even with 2 children for an apt like that. You must mix with the loftiest of crowds because that is an apt big enough for 4 people. YOu can change the dining room, as was stated before, if so desired. btw - there are so many people now applying to private schools that many rich folk are getting shut out and therefore need to attend public school. Something that was once taken for granted if you were rich is no longer available. The apt not being in a good school zone definitely influences families looking at the apt. If it were ps 6 it would have been sold. Most people don't have live ins in nyc anymore even though they utilize a nanny. Considering that people convert walk in closets into baby rooms - this apt is like a palace.

cccharley - then go for it!! Bet you could scoop it up for about $1.25 in this market. But my instincts tell me you won't - because you know deep down inside that if that second/third child comes along you will need to move again. Or forget about "need" to move, you may "have" to move again if you want to stay married to your beautiful wife!

Oops- my post disappeared or maybe it went to the wrong thread

How nice to be considered one of the boys, alas, I have a handsome husband and can't afford 1.25 million - I'm waiting for the cheap Yorkville 2br for $500K. Lots of us middle class renters would love to buy even a small apartment for eternity. I can pretty much guarantee you I won't be having another wee one and although I would love 1500 sf I don't need it and know I can't afford it.

I've missed the spirited discussion, but have to agree with cccharley and others. It's completely silly to say this is not big enough for a family with two kids. Dining room is perfectly sized and perfectly situated to become the third bedroom. Plus, you have an eat-in kitchen and another small room, so you don't "need" a formal dining room. Sure, you'd "like" to have one, but there's lots of things I'd like to have that I compromise on to live in Manhattan.

I shared a room with my little sister until I was 13. Not ideal, but not disastrous, either.

Wife and I have a kid, hope to have at least 2 more. We love Manhattan and want to stay. Despite having good jobs, we are not multi-millionnaires, and can't afford unlimited space. I think we'd be very happy with 1800-2000 SF and a good layout for ourselves and our 3-4 kids. I may be wrong, ask me in 10 years. But I think there are a ton of people like us, who are willing to compromise on certain things (within reason) to live in Manhattan.

The vast majority of people I know that live in cities with kids, in the US and abroad, live in apartments smaller than this. Of course, most of them don't have to have a million in cash to do that, but that's a different point.