Any other owners out there?

I feel for you. Very, very hard time to be a seller. Must you sell now or can you wait a few years? In any case, good luck to you.

It sucks HUGE, two years ago a neighbor wanted to buy our place and we declined. Dumb, dumb dumb! But, it could be worse, right now we couldn't rent for what we pay in maintence and mortgage and we get a bit of a tax write off. I do feel slightly better that I sold a place in 2004 for double what I paid for it in 2001.

I rarely post because I feel the negativity on this board is really just too much to handle right now. And I refuse to be happy and express joy over millions of peoples misfortunes. I grew up here, went to college here, and I would never ever live anywhere else. I'm a New Yorker, this is the best city in the world, and I will always be proud to own a small part of it.

I'm not a seller (yet!) We own - so far, not under water, even though we bought mid-2006 (been in the market since '00). There are no real comps, but I'm taking what I hear from brokers about what they think is the "right" ask and discounting 30%.

if you bought in 2000, then traded up in 2006, unless you traded up dramatically, you are probably playing with the houses money. good luck to you.

I am tempted to sell though. Don't care too much if we end up "breaking even" - it's so tempting to sit in all cash, though I know for a fact that we wouldn't be as comfortable in a rental (BTDT when we cashed out at the peak for our old building in '05).

I feel as you do, ggrl. We traded in '06 with a 1-year rental hiatus to a better place in terms of keeping its value. Our old co-op is in terrible, terrible financial shape. So yeah, we're playing with house $ if you look at it like that. And didn't have our money in the stock market because we renovated substantially. But this slide is so steep and so precipitous that I don't honestly know what it will be like to live here with a family.

I'm with kspeak. I bought in 1989, sold in 2007, bought in mid 2008 and essentially swapped assets (altho' better location and slightly larger with better layout) and was able to increase my cash position, buy a new car, and diversify somewhat rather than have all wealth concentrated in RE. That said, if you are getting into the market for the first time, I would have a hard time finding a financial rationale for why you would buy today versus waiting a couple of months or more.

Where do you live if you don't mind my asking?

Just my opinion - I don't want to say this is a good thing, because I feel for all the people who lost jobs/will lose jobs, etc. But, I don't think the city is going back to the 1970s either ... just my opionion ... link between crime and recession pretty minimal (e.g., crime also soared in the 1960s, 1980s, 1920s when the economy was good). They'll cut the police a bit and schools budgets, but I think it will be okay. It may get rid of some of the insanity - competition for slots in schools, etc. - which may not be the worst thing.

nyc10023, at least you live in a great zip oode.

This is not the same NYC that was here in the 1970s/1980s; there are record numbers of families here, and there is still an enormous amount of wealth in this city. I know there are a lot of doom and gloomers out here, and I should be one too--but I'm not. The way I see it is I can't and I won't leave here, with or without a family. The DOW, S&P, NASDAQ slide is what we can anticipate for real estate prices, and just like the market will hit a level and stabilize, so will real estate. We all can't be sellers, even in the depression and the drity NYC of the 70s and 80s people were still buying here.

Yes, crime will rise, yes homelessness will rise further, but you'll see that even worse in other areas. It's extremely hard to get a mortgage; I think we'll see a lot of people weather the storm and hold on to their apartment until things get better, UNLESS they were part of the 10% down crew, and are way too levered up and under water. And this is DEFINATELY not a market that novice buyers should be entering

The way I see it is I signed up to live here, and frankly while I know most people consider me a yuppie, I'd rather see a bit more dirt and grime in the city than the revival of the Goldman Sachs 3 yr I-banking associate living in the Lower East Side.

West 70s - I've been to many cities, and as a residential neighborhood for a family with young children, it has few equals in the Western world. Proximity to parks, transportation, and all the things that young families need - I never have to walk more than 10 minutes to do anything with our kids. No, it's not downtown or the West Village, but life is pretty darn good.

gramercygrl - take heart in what you wrote! nyc's history is replete with events like these, e.g., the great depression, financial crisis of '73, crash of '87, 9/11. what is most notable is that we live in one of the most resilient cities in the modern history of mankind. look at how nyc's population has grown considerably after each and every major downturn.

1890 1,515,301 25.6%
1900 3,437,202 126.8%
1910 4,766,883 38.7%
1920 5,620,048 17.9%
1930 6,930,446 23.3%
1940 7,454,995 7.6%
1950 7,891,957 5.9%
1960 7,781,984 −1.4%
1970 7,894,862 1.5%
1980 7,071,639 −10.4%
1990 7,322,564 3.5%
2000 8,008,288 9.4%
2007* 8,274,527 3.3%

source wikipedia

people just keep coming to our fair city, despite all of the problems we have seen in the past. ultimately that means we will need more housing. many are suggesting that because of the credit crisis new construction will come to a halt some time next year. if you believe as i do that history is the best indicator for the future than a supply shortage is coming sometime over the next 3-4 years.

we will get through this, though the pain may be a bit deeper this time around than the past 2 recessions. hang tight, don't panic and enjoy our wonderful city especially as we enter the holidays! we will see a recovery and hopefully we all learn our lesson from this ridiculously irresponsible decade we have just witnessed.

lastly, my father-in-law reminds me that he grew up in London when the nazis nearly bombed the city to the ground. post WWII over the next two decades, London and many regions of Western Europe would enjoy unprecedented growth and prosperity. as he reminds me, keep your chin up!

By the way, as for dirt and grime - we can all make it better! I'm one of those annoying people who pick trash up after other people. I even offer people who let their dogs poop on the sidewalk a plastic bag (that usually shames them).

I'm an owner, and I'm happy. In fact, we're just coming to the end of a (too damn long!) eight month gut renovation at reasonably significant expense. Love the location, love my home (now that the reno is almost done), wouldn't want to live anywhere else, and plan to live here til' they take me out feet first in a pine box (hopefully a very long time from now!).

Though it should be noted, I don't have to sell now, either!

But that doesn't mean that we haven't been turning increasingly pessimistic, and going to a (almost all) cash position (vs. equities and art, that is) over the past six months.

nyc10023:

I absolutely LOVE that you actually carry around plastic bags with you and offer them to people on the street who don't curb their dogs! And don't get me wrong - I love dogs - just not irresponsible owners.

Good to hear from sellers & recent buyers. Good to hear different points of view. I too am a lifelong NYer, wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Lots of people are suffering & times are scary & tough locally, nationally & globally.

I also miss the griminess of the 80s. I mean, look what they did to CBGBs!!!!! And, as much as I disliked the foulness of the old 42nd St area, I can't stand Disneyland. I guess at least Disney generates revenue, whereas old 42nd was Midnight Cowboy.

CBGBs is now a John Varvatos!!! I will never forget walking past it with my husband and saying, the city has officially gone to the 25 yr old hedge fund lords.

I didn't know what 'John Varvatos' was & then I googled......the apocalypse. But, seems Hildy dropped the ball. Oh well, sad.

i remember when the stones would have random jam sessions at CBGBs! i remember the disco/real nightclub era when everyone who was willing to wait on line got into a nightclub, not just those stupid enough to pay $500 for a bottle of $20 absolut! more than anything i remember when atms and banks didn't appear on every other street corner, but instead cool local merchants opened stores and restaurants that would surprise everybody.

gramercygrl:

Two observations -

1.) I see nothing wrong with CBGB turning over and dying. Most art forms (and most art, but not all) has a life span, and then it's done. After that, the art form consists of (bad) imitators trying to cash in on that art form's last gasps, or overly nostlgic protectors refusing to admit that art - ALL art, no matter what type/kind/style - eventually falls away, so that newer generations have the room to make their own statement. That's just life. But what is really super fantastic about a place like NYC, is that it absolutely THRIVES on that kind of specific turnover and fresh attitude to new forms. Other places eventually become stuck in the tarpits of history (culturally speaking), and ossify. What is so cool about NYC is that it almost refuses to do so - the only static point of view NYC can offer is one of constant change and mutability. That's why, to so many people from outside of our own country, NYC embodies what they think of when they dream of coming to America - and why, when terrorists decided to strike, they went after the biggest visually target in NYC that they could.

2.) As far as Punk and CBGB's, it grew and flourished in a very short span of time - mostly in the mid/late 1980's, as a backlash to the uptown Reaganomics of conspicuous consumption - an art movement of do-it-yourself, aggressively lo-fi, lo-production art of all types that challenged the status quo. But once that uptown world imploded, there was nothing for the punks to rail (or wail!) against as they had. So the movement eventually turned into something else, the artists went on their individual paths to new and interesting places, and CBGB's primary mission was over and done with. After that (bless their heart), CBGB was treading water for a VERY long time. It's like a very old beloved family pet that it breaks your heart to put down, but eventually, you just don't want to see that best friend whom you've loved so much for so long suffer, just so that you can have a little more time with them.

That's the way I felt about CBGB at the end.

UWS1313, I'm part of the bottle generation--but I can safetly say I know no one who does that anymore. I will say that I remember when the Flatiron was 'shady', when NO ONE voluanrily went to the Lower East Side, when the East Village was punk, and I went to Columbia before the gentrification north of 96th street. Those were the days when I made no money and had no money, but I sure did have A LOT more fun then, and emjoyed the city much more.

Also an owner and quite happy. Fortunately have no reason/desire to sell for quite a few years at least, though anyone who has to right now must obviously be worried at this point. I've been "nibbling" at equities in the past month, though most of that doesn't look too good so far! nyc10023, I may adopt your bag-carrying-at-all-times idea - the look on their faces must be worth it!

We closed on a modest one bedroom coop in the East 20s just three months ago. At the time, we thought we got a major bargain—a sunny, well layed out 600 sq ft one bedroom on a high floor of a quiet elevator building for under 500K. It definitely needed some TLC — which is why we got it at 60K below initial listing. We put in about 12K to get it in good shape.

As a first time buyer, my biggest fear was to move in and wake up the next morning to read headlines announcing the market tanking—which is basically what's happened. And you know what? I'm still thrilled to be a new home owner and have a beautiful space I can share for many years to come with my spouse. Sure, we won't be able to flip it for a big profit but I have faith this great city will keep attracting newcomers and new businesses so I don't see the value of my apartment crashing. We also didn't listen to the advice of some lenders to buy beyond our means so we're stretched but not panicky and prepared to ride out the storm.

Yes, times are scary, but I don't actually mind a slightly less glossy and more humble NYC. Its still home.

Agree re: CBGBs being the dying family pet but wish it remained a venue for live performance or something similar. I dislike the gentrification of the Bowery, but the way the economy's going, perhaps the old Bowery will return (city wide), which wouldn't be great either. I just miss the Bowery Bums, including Leo Gorsey & Huntz Hall, great flicks.

Malrux--I like your point; I never went to CBGBs and thought it was a dirty looking old place, but I was sad to see it go more for what replaced it. And I suppose I should not be negative on hedge funds, my husband is a hedge fund guy.

malraux, LOVE your post on punk and CBGBs. Punk was inherently disposable (that Johnny Rotten essentially put the kibosh on the Sex Pistols and moved on to Public Image after one album is pretty solid evidence) and that venue served its purpose. New and great music continues to thrive in this city (amidst a lot of bad, no doubt). Although it seems a lot of it is coming out of Brooklyn these days, it's also evident in Manhattan, the other boroughs (even SI), and yes, possibly even New Jersey.

I have more smart-alecky ideas. At Fairway, when I see people reaching into the bread bins with their hands, I usually ask very politely, "May I give you a pair of tongs?" Heh!

CBs was disgusting, but that was part of its charm.

I closed on my place early last year and so far (knock wood) it's held its value. I also bought with the intention of staying for a while so I could weather any storm.

The idea of selling has crossed my mind, but I'm not sure it would be worth it for me to rent. I like where I am and am able to continue to afford living there.

Lots of families have stayed in the city; I wonder if they'll end up moving, but where to (barring corporaet relocation)? If it's hard to get a mortgage, and the same reasons people decided to stay here remain (conveniences, parks, resources), I don't see that changing near term.

I also don't see us going back to the high crime levels of the 70/80's, as post-9/11 there is police surveillance everywhere.

NYC economy and RE will recover eventually; just a mattter of when.

I'm an owner, and I'm quite happy. My after-tax monthly expense is a bit lower than an equivalent rental might be. Sure, there's opportunity cost on the down payment... then again, I sold a *lot* of stock in preparation to buy, and that happened to be within 5% of the all-time peak. I sold not just for the down payment, but to have an overall much more conservative portfolio after closing. That was a *lot* of potential crash money saved.

I realize I'm comparing apples and oranges. That just because I sold stocks at the top to buy real estate, doesn't change the fact that maybe I could have done better rebuying stocks at lows instead of real estate. But I don't work that way. I attribute the sale at the top to blind luck. I don't believe I can call tops or bottoms. Without real estate, I would have stuck with stocks.

I still know that some properties on the market today are justified by rent vs. buy math. Will rents go down? Quite possibly, in which case these properties will go down too. I don't have a crystal ball. But for today's numbers, I'm happy and secure.

uptowngal,
Good to hear, good luck w/ yr place & good attitude.

A general observation - I try to be middle of the road on this issue. If everything changed in the city all the time, there would be no stability. Obviously, there are some great things about NYC (Brooklyn Bridge, Empire State and Chrysler buildings, Guggenheim, Met, Central Park, Carnegie Hall, Grand Central Station, Katz's, Economy Candy, etc. - I'm sure you disagree with some of my choices and have plenty good ones of your own, but you get the gist) that I feel would be a mortal wound to NYC if they were displaced. But punk was intended, from the get-go, to basically be an ephemeral art movement (in general - though some of that music is still as awesome today as it ever was), and that's how I think CBGB's should have viewed themselves. But then they got too mired in their own nostalgia, wanted to 'cash in,' and basically became a corporate heart disguised with a wafer-thin veneer of punk attitude on the outside, in order to sell t-shirts and baseball caps and keychains and such to overweight weebles from the midwest who took these trinkets home to display how 'cool' and 'edgy' they to the the other overweight weebles in their little cowtown.

As a side note, I'm an old guy, :-( I was there. I can BARELY remember any of it through my drug and alcohol fueled/addled mind. But I would not have changed a single, solitary thing. It was pure, absolute, distilled magic. And we knew it. And we also knew it would never, could never, last.

RIP, CBGB.

Actually CBGB's opened in the mid-late 70s and came upon punk rock by accident (CBGB stands for Country Blue Grass and Blues). It was an iconic destination long before Reagonomics took hold; Patti Smith, Television, Talking Heads and Blondie were just some of the performers to grace its stage in the early years when the Bowery was still for bums (and yes, unPC as it sounds that's what we called them) and "Slimes Square" was the coolest place for high school kids like us to play hooky and get into trouble with the denizens: pimps, hookers, hustlers, dealers et al. They never took advantage of us, there were enough suburban kids, runaways and tourists to survive on.

Like many native New Yorkers, I miss the 70s and 80s and wish Disneyland on the Hudson would go away. But not at the cost of people's jobs and ability to maintain their homes. Let every yuppie get an offer they can't refuse to go work somewhere else. Let the tourists please find somewhere else to visit but let the jobs that depend on tourism morph into something else productive. I want my grime and grit back but I don't want increased suffering, seniors losing their nest eggs; mid-life professionals (like me) having to think about starting over. Manhattan can easily live without $300 children's sweaters, but let's hope like hell we don't end up with kids being cold.

On that note (no pun intended), maybe this downturn will spurn a new generation of art & expression? If commercial rents fall, then smaller mom & pop stores may come back and compete w Starbucks. Maybe the 'edgy-ness' that eveyone misses will return.

I would have to agree. It's at the bottom of the ride that people feel freest to express themselves. When you're at the top, nobody wants to rock the boat too much, they just hope the ride keeps going up.

this is one of the more enjoyable discussion threads! a cross section of new yorkers, living volumes of history and nostalgia, and disparate visions of what could be a better future for us all.

don't forget for one stinking ny minute that this town is going to lead the world out of the terrible mess that it's in. the first shining example of that is the NY Fed Governor just got the nod from Obama to take over the Treasury and the market couldn't have been happier.

let's not totally condemn any segment of ny's wonderfully diverse populace. we need the hedgies as their extravagance and excess is classic ny boom/bust; we need the artists, rich, poor and otherwise as ny might as well be chicago or toronto without them, we need all the various subcultures we have seen and will once again see 'cause deep down we all miss them.

i wouldn't mind a bar in which i could occasionally get pissed and have a smoke! then again i never stink when i come home at 4:00 am!!

"Let the tourists please find somewhere else to visit but let the jobs that depend on tourism morph into something else productive. I want my grime and grit back but I don't want increased suffering" Amen.

And, yes, we need the hedgies.

I like the fact that Times Square is cleaned up. It's now a tourist haven so they can stay there. And no more squeegee people. Actually tourists are good for the city, they $pend and generate tax revenue. But having a Whole Foods in the Bowry does seem a little goofy.

And Obama might be good for NY; with the (soon-to-be-former) head of the NY Fed, Hillary in the cabinet and a president who understands first-hand urban issues, plus key Dems in Congress from the area (Rangel, Schumer), things could be a lot worse.

If NYC population is projected to grow, but I wonder how many of the figures cited above are immigrants whose spending power may not be enough to sustain the current housing market in the near term.

I'm really glad to hear that so many of you owners are happy with your places even with the real estate market crashing--seriously, I think that's great. If you were intending to stay in your apartment for a long time, then why should you care if prices plummet? It's just a paper loss. Enjoy your home and try to tune out the noise.

I was born in New York and I love New York as well and barring something catastrophic and unforeseeable I'll be for the duration. I hope the City gets through this rough patch quickly but I have my doubts. Fingers crossed that we don't have a repeat of the 70s, and I don't think we will, but things can get a lot worse.

No hedgies, no tourists, no this's. no that's...

NIMBY-ism at its worst.

What makes NYC NYC is its very diversity from top to bottom. It's like an ecosystem - try to remaove big chunks you don't happen to personally like (don't like creepy-crawlies? GONE! Don't like rats? GONE! Don't like pigeons? GONE! etc.), and the thing can actually collapse. The strength of NYC, unlikeso many other homogeous parts of the US, is its willingness to at least tolerate incredibly disperate people from all walks of life - cultural, economic, religious, left, right - the whole enchilada.

Shit, there's people/things I don't like about NYC, but the worst thing is bigotry in any form - against cultures, religions, economic stratum, yuppies, tourists, longtime residents, whatever. Granted, there has to be chaeck and balances to some degree, otherwise it's total anarchy. But railing against hedgies and/or tourists ain't the issue.

Great thread. I moved here for the first time in 90, after college. It was still hanging on then...great sleaze and magic was still to be found. Left for Europe in 93, came back in 05. It was gone.

""By the way, as for dirt and grime - we can all make it better! I'm one of those annoying people who pick trash up after other people. I even offer people who let their dogs poop on the sidewalk a plastic bag (that usually shames them).""

nyc: This one works great for me--If I'm walking behind someone who drops trash on the sidewalk, I pick it up, run after them, say "scuse me, I believe you dropped this" and hand their turd right back to them. Talk about shame.

As for post topic, I'm an owner but purchased back in college (late 80s) for peanuts, with no mortgage, so I'm not remotely interested in selling at this point. As long as I can rent it out I'll be happy. Even if I have to let it sit vacant for a year or two it won't be too painful.

squid,

why don't you live in the apartment you own?

^^^ Too small.

^^^ sorry--signed in under paid account by mistake. As I was saying, too small.

I'm glad CBGB died. Because it had already died, it was just a joke that lived on. A bunch of 12 years olds with OMFUG tshirts on walking around the mall. In a neighborhood that now has nothing to do with what it was. It was a joke by the end of the 80s.

Its like the Bitter End. Dylan's ghost gone for years, just an excuse to sell bad beer at inflated prices to Germans.

NYC is about change. Its not a museum. And everything that CBGB was, the opposite had overtaken it. Glad someone put it out of its misery.

I also want to punch the people who "miss" times square. Fuck you, really. First off, the people that say it weren't there. Because I don't remember any yuppies there. Hell, I don't remember many white people there (only saying this because its white yuppies who claim this). I went to get a fake ID once and had to fight some guy off who wouldn't let me not buy it. I don't miss any of that shit, it wasn't exciting, it just sucked. Anybody who longs for the crime and the poverty and the mental patients is an idiot. Things like Time Square have just become a "well, you had to be there" for someone who has been here for 8 years to brag to someone who has been here for 4. Noone I know that was born here misses it, it sucked.

As for trash/dogshit, I usually start with "are you retarded?" and then just stare at them like I'm going to punch them in the face. Its fun to just see them stammer and try and come up with a response.

""As for trash/dogshit, I usually start with "are you retarded?" and then just stare at them like I'm going to punch them in the face. Its fun to just see them stammer and try and come up with a response.""

Ha! I'll have to try that next time.

Yes, I tried other stuff, but I realize that waiting for THEM to say something is better than trying to come up with the perfect line.

BTW, I concidentally stumbled on this... Barbara Corcoran has a similar sentiment..

"I really miss having the bag people on every other block. I miss going to the Theater District and not being able to bring my parents because I thought they couldn’t defend themselves if they were attacked. I miss terribly the squeegee washers on the 59th Street Bridge. I miss the sense of dread going down a street that had no one walking on it."

As I said, anyone I know who was here for the bad shit thought it sucked...

I'm one of those people who is misses Times Square etc and I was definitely here for the "bad shit", grew up in lower Manhattan and have lived on this island long enough to get mail from the AARP. Not only did we hang out in Times Square in HS in the 70s but in the mid-80s I worked at 1515 Broadway and drank at some long gone gin mills on 43rd street that primarily served Times employees. Yes, sometimes it was fucking scary but we were imbuded with street smarts from birth so we knew how to deal(and we knew no other way to live).
I check the box marked professional but I'd put my non-yuppie cred up with just about anyone's. And yes, I'm white and female..
And I'm not saying it didn't suck in many ways but it was real and it was the unique New York I loved. Now the shopping mall could be anywhere in middle America, you even have Applebees and Olive Garden. No one wants to bring back dog shit, 2000 murders a year or homeless people sleeping in doorways (a regular occurance in my old apartment in Murray Hill through the mid-90s), but I would like to think we could have replaced it with something a little more interesting than emulating Omaha (without even a Warren Buffett).

By the way, I recently purchased my dream home, at the height of the market and pray that I will be able to fulfill expectation of being carried out or at least going from here to assisted living. I expect my apartment has already lost value and will lose some more in the months/years ahead but my visiion is so long term I expect it to be recovered and then some by the time I (or perhaps my estate) want to sell. My fear in this environment is not the value of my apartment but frankly, despite putting a lot down and having a minimal mortgage, but rather maintaining an income to keep the apartment when jobs (I'm not in finance but I'm expecting to be let go very soon) are hard to find especially for senior employees...and the "nest egg" has been fried to the point of almost dispearring.

liz, you've got the right 'tude. If you're looking long-term you'll be fine, barring some natural catastrophe or nuke attack on the city. Dream homes don't come around very often. When you find yours, it makes sense to pounce, height of the market or not.

i arrived here in 1983. when i was in college uptown, dead bodies were left in rolled up rugs on the sidewalk, you never ever went into central park after 9:00 pm; every where you walked in the village someone offered you narcotics of one variety or another; used syringes and condoms littered the streets of chelsea; the meat packing district smelled of the blood from the dripping cow carcasses shipped that day; and police corruption was institutionalized. how times have changed! and that's the point of this whole discussion. sure we may wax nostalgically of the bygone days of the mean streets of nyc. but ny real estate never would have had its run-up to where it is today if the quality of life did not change as dramatically as it has. and that's why i'm not scared. people all over this discussion board have told us how much they love living here! many newcomers will experience that same feeling over the coming years.

finally, new york will re-make itself again - don't you worry about that. just a little over 60 years ago nyc was an industrial and manufacturing powerhouse. do we actually make anything here anymore? of course not. will nyc rely as heavily on finance in the future - i'm guessing not. but something new and wonderful will be created here over the next ten years. i cannot tell you what it is but the history of nyc tells us that time and time again nyc re-creates itself.

Thanks Squid. My "dream home" is hardly grand..a nice (real not converted) two bedroom in a doorman building in a great but non-pretenious neighborhood. Best of all it gets light and air, something the 350 sq ft apartment I lived in the past 25 years sorely lacked (first floor rear in a renovated temenent...a true cave..but it was cheap...and in my wilder, crzier days, not having to deal with the rising sun--or more correctly the sun that had already risen--was not necessarily a bad thing). One persons dream is another person's starter home but for me..this is where I want to stay.

this is a great thread. I too am an owner, and a renter too at the moment. I closed on a place 3 weeks ago that I signed for 20 or so months ago. We're doing some work and will be moving in in Jan. Am I pessimistic about real estate, damn right, how could you not be. But I'm an owner not a seller, big difference, I suspect we'll be happy in this apt for at least 10 years and perhaps forever. In fact if prices do in fact tank (and my business does reasonably well), I already let my mind slip to the idea of buying the place next door or above or below me and combining. Anyway the new apt is amazing, so much better than the one we sold in 2007 and the overpriced rental we've been in since. So yeah I'm nervous but super excited as is my family.

I am an owner of a one bedroom in a coop building. I don't care about what my apt is worth because I hate moving and intend to die here. However, my neighbors terrify me, because if they don't pay their maintenance then I will have to pay it. Start worrying about insolvency people!

Sold a two-bed uptown in a bad school district and bought a 3-bed downtown in a good school district last summer. Bought the 2-bed a few weeks after 9/11, putting my life's savings into the place. Decided this is where I wanted to live, short term problems notwithstanding. NYC is one of humanity's greatest creations and I don't intend to live anywhere else. I'd rather face economic problems in NYC, than in some Arizona exurb.

Even on this cold day, I still love New York! As long as we are employed, we'll try to stay here. Even idly thinking about doing some more renovations because good contractors are not busy right now.

This thread has me feeling nostalgic for the 1987 crash. Gee, New York was fun back then. I lived in Williamsburg in 1989, when all these underground clubs started - Mustard, Keep Refrigerated, Quiet Life - you could get $1 Black Label in cans, see a band for $3, make out with some arty guy from Kansas... A big night out would set you back $10. We didn't need to go to CBGB's! Then came the Happyland fire and Giuliani...

I'm an owner in Red Hook, Brooklyn. We bought last year, at what was arguably the top of the market here - I think we may have paid the record price for a two-family in this neighborhood. I'm also a broker and recognized the coming crisis; I knew we were buying for the long haul. But after opportunity costs, we pay the same amount as we did for our rental (even before you factor in the tax benefits), and we love our home. Plus we bought with only 10% down, and our primary mortgage is a type that doesn't exist anymore - a 10/1 interest-only arm, at 6.35%. If I'd waited, even if prices dropped 30%-40%, I wouldn't be able to buy because I didn't have the 20% down. In any case, even as the economic picture gets gloomier and gloomier, I have to remind myself how lucky I am.

I was born in NYC but didn't live there on my own until 1981, when I rented a one bedroom at 40 1/2 St Mark Place for $600/month, big money when my salary was $23k per year working for NYC. East Village was great back then, every other person had purple hair. I used to hang out at the Pyramid Club, A7, 8BC, Mudd Club, Danceteria, Irving Plaza, etc. A7 was sort of an afterhours place with 2 doors to screen out cops, on the southeast corner of A and 7th, where 5 or 6 bands would play until 6am, and cans of Bud were served from trash cans filled with ice. Breakfast at the Odessa or Kiev afterwards.

I worked downtown on Chambers Street behind City Hall in the old Emigrant Savings building. My co-workers and I used to hang out after work at Puffys Tavern on Hudson St, I was there so often when friends wanted to reach me they would call the pay phone at Puffys (note to twentysomethings: hard to imagine but people did meet up pre-cell phones and text messages). My office had a co-ed softball team that played over by Avenue D in the East River Park and afterwards we would all walk through Alphabet City (since we were carrying baseball bats we felt safe!) to go to St Marks Bar and Grill for pitchers of beer and have pizzas delivered into the bar.

Now I own a depreciating 7000sf house in the 'burbs. where I am happy to lose 50% of the peak price since I intend to trade it for a 4000sf loft downtown where 50% off will more than make up the difference. I love NYC.

To elaborate on the concept of pre-historic communications. Whenever the pay phone would ring in most drinking establishments the first response would be a chorus of "I'm not heres" from the bar stools lest whoever answered it give away location to someone's signficant other, mother etc. And of course the person on the other end of the phone knew damn well their husband/boyfriend/daughter/ WAS there. It was a neverending game....But then we only had about 30 channels of TV and a primitive game of Ms Pac Man to entertain us.

modern, can you share the suburb you live in? Do you think all suburban living is terrible, or does it have to do with the particular town you are in?

modern:

Those were wonderful times. And the fabulous gallery scene - International with Monument, Fun, Pat Hearn, Gracie Mansion, Piezo Electric, 51X, Nature Morte, Civilian Warfare, New Math, and all the others.

Come back home - we welcome you with open arms!

UWS1313,
"dead bodies were left in rolled up rugs on the sidewalk,"
You must have gone to Columbia, as did I. Dead body in rolled up rug (on 114th?) is classic Columbia lore. But, so what? It was a great rug! You gotta a problem with dat?????

I still don't go into any park after dark, too many rats (2 & 4 legged).

Corcoran's nostalgia is BS. I didn't like walking over & thru homeless druggies as I entered a bld or any of her other reminiscences. Squeegee guys, get outta my face.

NYC is always reinventing itself, some for the good & some for the worse. Transformation is essential to survival & thrival. I just dislike NYC becoming a Mall of America, antiseptic & corporate.

Good to hear from die hard NYers who won't leave as long as they can hold on.

I actually tried the middle American thing a few years ago..good job, money went much farther, no income tax blah, blah, blah. Bought a beautiful 1926 Tudor house for what my friends paid for 1 bedroom apts in Manhattan (although my colleagues didn't understand why I didn't buy a new McMansion for the same money. Then again they also told me not to dismiss as husband material a friend I identified as being gay because "he could change".) No one in my family had ever lived in a house before....Needless to say, at the first whiff of corporate cutbacks I raised my hand for a severance package and ran back to where I belonged (and the 350 sq ft apt I had sublet but not given up). Now my feeling is I would rather BE the dead body rolled up in the rug on a New York sidewalk than be exiled again...although in this economy anything is unfortunately possible and "never say never" is an adage I believe in.

I bought a similar vintage 3 br house in Minneapolis near Lake of the Isles in 1988 for about $275k, when I left NYC after the Tompkins Park riots (which happened outside my window) and thought I'd try something different. Mistake. After freezing our ass off with boring people for 2 years moved back to West 11th and Washington St but had trouble selling our house (1990 was a slump). Ended up losing more than our entire 20% downpayment and had to write a check at closing. The thought of defaulting on our mortgage and not paying never crossed my mind. How things change, people seem to think you are stupid to make good on your debts nowadays. Besides Minneapolis I've lived in DC, San Francisco, and Boston but I'll join you in that rolled-up rug before I leave here again.

kas242: I live in Chappaqua, chosen 15 years ago because it was less suburban (more semi-rural, with minimum 1 acre zoning and most houses having more, I have 3 acres). I don't hate it but it is not where we want to be anymore. Moved here because we thought we needed to for the kids, in hindsight I wish we had tried to raise them in NYC. Sent one kid to public school and one to private, while the public schools have a great reputation most parents will give you a mixed review once their kids are older. Big focus on kids sports, almost to the exclusion of anything else. Chappaqua is the town where a coach/parent broke the arm of the umpire after he called the coach's son out on strikes. And then after being arrested and suspended from coaching, the parents started a petiton to bring him back, saying well yes he was a hothead who screamed at the kids but he won games! Not sure it is much different anywhere else though.

The thought of living in the suburbs literally scares me, yet some love it. Different strokes. I need a city and how many 'decent' cities are there in the US? Many places which are called "cities" are, in my opinion, towns and maybe they're big towns, but they're not cities like NY is a city.

Thanks, modern. As a product of the suburbs, I hope never to return. I love nearly everything about city living and plan to be here for the long haul. But I have to admit that on days when I am cramming myself into a crowded 6 train in the evening, or walking blocks in wintry winds to grocery shop that the suburbs can hold a false allure. I don't think I'll ultimately end up back in the 'burbs, but it's always good to hear how others have reacted to the change of locale.

I am not an NYC owner (yet), but thoroughly enjoying this thread. Been here for 9 years, hope to make it 90.

I just wanted to add my name to the list of happy owners in this thread. We closed in late June and just moved in last week after extensive renovations. Fortunately we did not buy at the top (we paid 8% less than ask and over 10% less than the highwater mark for a comparable unit in our building). (Also, the rent-buy multiple we paid was not totally out of whack. It was around 16x, which is still higher than the 12-13x that stevehjx throws around but much less than the crazy 20-25x that were going on in some cases.) We also accepted at the time that prices were very likely to fall further. Having said all that it will still be somewhat painful to see a significant paper loss if prices fall significantly as I strongly suspect they will. Mentally we were prepared for another 10-20% drop, but if it is more like 30+% it will undoubtedly sting a bit. OTOH, the place we bought is pretty much the one I expect to be carried out in so to speak so I am really in it for the long-term.

After having viewed pretty much all the buildings in our preferred area and having evaluated the pros and cons of each, including every new development, we decided that we would love to stay in our current building (in which we were renting) if only a 2 bedroom ever became available. (BTW, we are in central village area where I have lived now for over 15 years.) If several 2 beds turned over every year we would have undoubtedly waited things out a bit more. However, they rarely do. So, when one 2 bedroom (conv. 3)/2 bath became available on a high floor with stellar views we jumped in.

During the endless renovation process as the market slid there was definitely some moments of doubt and self-recriminations. But now that we are done we absolutely love the place and are happy we bought notwithstanding current conditions.

i'm not an owner, but don't see why a paper loss should worry somebody not interested on selling. the only negative i can see are worse consequences of a job loss if another job cannot be found soon enough on the same city. it also hurts your mobility (but most sound not willing to live anywhere else, so it's not relevant).

the owners that do care, is it more of a psychological thing? like buyer's remorse: you could have gotten something bigger and better located with the same money?

Lived in New York for 20 years, married to a "real New Yorker" who was born here, have owned since 1996. Just sold the beach house so we are down to one property, a condo studio near Time Warner Center.

If prices don't adjust and volume tanks, it will be good for my net worth and bad for my business. If prices slide and volume picks up, it will be good for business and bad for my net worth -- so oddly, I feel like my risk is as diversified as it's going to get!

I worry about my friends' jobs -- and my 201(k) -- but at our current mortgage rate of 4.25% I'm not that freaked out. For us, it would take four years of worst-case interest rate resets before it would feel like the 1980s again.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

dwell, yes columbia class of '87. my second week of carman dorm life and the cops taped off the room with the dead body!! i also fondly think back to the late 80's, my first year of work - 2 tokens (anyone remember those) a ny times, and lunch would cost me less than $5/day, and i worked at the palladium and area to make side $$. i had more fun than any 19 yr old kid should have been allowed! i also kissed a few strangers those nights dwell!

now back to the focus of this discussion thread...look i think some ridiculous properties will correct dramatically (50% ), but did anyone really think the time warner condos were ever worth $8k psf?? i had a few friends who went to those invitation only viewings and they came out saying $8k psf and i don't get any outdoor space! thanks to all of those media moguls and hedge fund billionaires who spent their monopoly $ we all felt like $1500 psf was "reasonable?" those excesses will be gone for a few years! i also think some desperate sellers will sell at any price to raise cash, pay off debt, alimony, support bad habits whatever....

but, i believe that nyc's intangible value is timeless. sure, sure over-supply/reduced demand, wall st layoffs, credit crsis, blah blah blah. sure buy a crappy estate co-op for $500 psf and let the roaches and mice run all over you whilst you celebrate how smart you are! don't you hate the jerks bottom fishing for absolute crap and trying to tell the rest of us that's where the market is headed?

when i am my most pessimistic i am reminded of the friends whose great grandparents/grandparents bought entire city blocks during the great depression. those families now own/control/manage most of nyc's real estate. could you ever imagine buying when unemployment was greater than 25%, when middle class folk lined up at soup kitchens for every meal, when gangs controlled the streets, not the cops!

sure we all need to be prudent and plan for the worst, but never mind the postings that tell you that nyc's best days are behind us. f them!

if anything, i am becoming greedy when others are scared!!!

hang in their everyone. when you're feeling shitty, go to one of those old nyc bars, pump a few dollars into those new high tech juke boxes and sit and watch the young kids kiss strangers! if you're feeling really brave you might even kiss one of them yourself!