the sleaziest realtwhore quote of the week

JS, I thought the same thing!

Well, the jerkstore called, they're running out of irony.

"A lot of brokers are making friends with lawyers and doctors and all those people who were left behind in the heyday of Wall Street, three months ago."

Unbelievable, like Wall Street types are the only people who need housing or can afford to buy apartments and now that the Wall Street guys have been fleeced, it is time to move on to the next group of professionals. I hope my professional is far down on the broker's lists. I am also happy that Madoff never gave me a call to join his club.

"In the last few weeks, intelligent buyers have taken the opportunity to snap up fantastic real estate at a comfortable savings. Speculative activity is certainly on the wane and the beneficiaries of the resulting drop in activity are undoubtedly regular New Yorkers who need to relocate. They are getting the best deals to be had in many years."

Pamela Liebman
Q4 manhattan report

q4 corcoran report

"A lot of brokers are making friends with lawyers and doctors and all those people who were left behind in the heyday of Wall Street, three months ago."

Didn't they already try the "doctors will save us" line 6 months ago?

And did anyone notice that lawyers are being laid off, and bonuses have also been cut there? Some firms are not paying bonuses.

Cause guess who paid the lawyers?!?!?

"In the last few weeks, intelligent buyers have taken the opportunity to snap up fantastic real estate at a comfortable savings. Speculative activity is certainly on the wane and the beneficiaries of the resulting drop in activity are undoubtedly regular New Yorkers who need to relocate. They are getting the best deals to be had in many years."

How on earth do they call this a "report"?

Its an opinion. hell, its a lie.

Sales volumes fell off a cliff....

As I said before, avoid the brokerage reports, go to the source...

"In the last few weeks...."

Wait till the next few weeks.

my wife's office just got a dozen bookings for procedures from RE brokers.. are they seriously going under the nice to try to make friends with doctors? Are there any Lawyers on the board, are brokers faking personal injury lawsuits to get some "lawyer friend" time?

Inquiring minds want to know?

I'm glad to see that the uptake of the word "Realtwhore" is vast...

"A lot of brokers are making friends with lawyers and doctors and all those people who were left behind in the heyday of Wall Street, three months ago."

- Is it me or is this one of the all time most ignorant comments ever...

Is it just me, or is this comment really not that insulting? I suppose it has bruised a few egos, but come on...

oh, I too am "whose family's income stems from the law".

The notion that the doctors and lawyers are the ones who are being left behind is just laughable when looking at how much doctors and lawyers earn compared to the rest of the population.

The income disparity in this country is huge. To exacerbate the problem, doctors and lawyers seem to only marry other doctors and lawyers. Now, I know there are reasons why high income people marry other high income people, but it does not give anybody a boost when the wealth becomes so concentrated.

"The notion that the doctors and lawyers are the ones who are being left behind is just laughable when looking at how much doctors and lawyers earn compared to the rest of the population."

Not really - compared to the expanding salaries of most people in the finance field, they were left behind locally even if they are doing fine on a national level.

As someone who's husband IS in "that area of law", it's certainly true that associate salaries - even senior associate and junior partener salaries - don't compare with the wall streeters. But that's all public knowledge. Perhaps I'm missing the point. I hope they call my husband. I'd love to wast their time b/c we aren't even close to being able to afford anything substantial in this city.

Overall, I find the comment desperate and hilarious.

Uwsmom, your husband does personal injury lawsuits? Slip and fall, in Manhattan?

LOL

Aboutready - how do you delete posts? I see you deleted yours - you know, the one I responded too.

Yep - slip and fall lawyer. I'm very proud of him =)

Seriously - how do you delete posts? I'm not seeing that option.

BTW - my apology to anyone who reads this crap. My spelling is atrocious today!

No, I didn't delete it. The powers that be clearly felt I was serious. Anyone whose read my posts over time, I would hope, would know that I was not. Good God, leave the bleeding liberal cloak off for a second, and I get nailed.

Last year I was quite seriously informed that anyone at less than a top partner level had been priced out of the market. I didn't take exception with the reality, but rather with the sustainability, of such a scenario and was told I was naive or some such. I truly like my broker, but many have been unwilling to waste their time on anyone without a mortgage commitment letter in hand over the last few years, and they should feel the pain of their short-sighted client marketing techniques. Perhaps I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder, yes?

My husband represents large international corporations suing each other. And, even though he's a liberal, he cares whether or not he does well for them. Go figure.

"Is it just me, or is this comment really not that insulting? I suppose it has bruised a few egos, but come on..."

You clearly have not dealt with many brokers....

LOL...WTF???? I could probably diagnose you based on this thread alone =)

garelj - I have limited exprience w/ brokers

"Last year I was quite seriously informed that anyone at less than a top partner level had been priced out of the market."

They were kidding, right? How can someone with the salary of a lawyer or doctor be priced out of the market when they can easily buy a smaller apartment without any problems. Oh, they meant they were priced out of the 3 bedroom 2500 square foot places? What kind of property are we talking about here?

Why don't you get rid of your broker and go talk to sellers (and their brokers) directly. They will look at your financial situation and decide whether to go forward with you, regardless of a silly pre-approval letter.

You did mean pre-approval letter, right? Mortgage pre-approval letters are not worth the paper they're printed on when the bank walks away from the deal, as happened to one of my friends, three days before closing.

407PAS: "The notion that the doctors and lawyers are the ones who are being left behind is just laughable when looking at how much doctors and lawyers earn compared to the rest of the population."

I really don't think you appreciate what the practice of law is all about, and what most lawyers get paid.

To be a lawyer, you need at least a college degree (which most of the adults in the U.S. do not have) PLUS you must spend another 3 years in law school (which, I might add, is 50% longer than business school). On top of that, you have to pass the bar exam (which, a not insignificant portion of law school graduates never do). Even after all of that, there are far fewer "lucrative" law firm jobs than there are graduates. If you weren't one of the 2,500 people each year to graduate from a "top" law school, then you better have been in the top 10% of your class or have some other distinction to get a high paying job. All of the other lawyers (including those who are driven by more than money) toil for anywhere from $30k a year (public interest work) to $80 or $90k or so (smaller firms). And, even if you are working at a big firm and making top of the market pay, you're still paying 40% or so of your income in taxes.

On top of ALL of that, you probably have $50-$125k in student loan debt to pay.

Oh--and I won't even get into the hours.

And the path for doctors is even more difficult. Perhaps others here can comment, but my understanding is that med school is 4 years, plus there's 4 years of residency, plus 4-7 additional years if you want to specialize--during which time you make next to nothing and work 100 hour weeks. Then, when you're 35 or so, you can start to make the "big" bucks...which you can use to pay off your student loans. Oh, and don't forget, the 40% that the government gets.

No, PAS, these were people on this board, and they/I were talking about 1400ish sf 2 bedrooms, and they were right, I was priced out, not to the extent that I couldn't have gotten financing, or technically "afforded" the apartment, but to the extent that it would have been stupid to overextend like that. I have a child, a smaller apartment won't work, and I can rent a nice 1200 sf apartment for $4000 (which I do).

I've bought and sold three times. Thanks for the advice, but I've known and worked with my broker for almost 10 years, and I am fully capable of running the numbers to determine affordability (both in terms of industry standards, and as an investment). Regarding the pre-approval letter, I wasn't speaking of myself, I was talking generally about the behavior of brokers. Buster2056 is right, many people who make what would be considered an absurd amount of money most places were, at least temporarily, left behind. PAS, sorry, my comments made sense to me, but clearly weren't so cogent.

Slope, one has to wonder why anyone is going to med school these days. I read somehing last year about a med school grad with $300K in debt, living in a modest community. Some financial analysts were setting forth two lifestyle choices for her, I don't remember the details, but it was something like a draconian not have a bit of fun five year option, vs. have a tiny bit of fun for eight years option, then she would be out of debt. Normal living, something like a 12 year period before real solvency.

"No, I didn't delete it. The powers that be clearly felt I was serious. Anyone whose read my posts over time, I would hope, would know that I was not"

Wow - I'm sorry that the powers that be are taking the liberty of determining which of your posts are worthy of staying and which must be abolished forever (or perhaps it will mysteriously reappear...).

Enjoy your day my friend. You are truly entertaining!

Well, that's the thing with the powers of the powers that be. They have the powers to take liberties. Puts me almost in the same category as the Steve imposter and Mitch2, etc., though, which I'm fairly certain is not a good thing.

A good day to you, as well.

Look, I understand the problems faced by doctors and lawyers, in terms of paying off their student loans and becoming solvent. I am not belittling those problems but their incomes are still relatively high when compared to the general population. I think you are understating lawyer's incomes in order to try to prove your point. Taxes hit everyone so that is not really a fair argument.

I knew two doctors, former friends, who were married. One of them was trying to shirk her responsibilities and not pay back her student loans. Is that right? Now, I hear some people are trying to flee the country to avoid repayment. Absolutely incredible.

aboutready,
If brokers get in your way to buy an apartment, you should go around them, and so should your friends. Who needs more roadblocks in the process?

As for your comments being flagged, look, you made threatening comments. None of us 'know' you or know the tone of your posts, we can only judge you by your words. You should not go spouting off that people 'should be hurt' and 'have to go', no matter how much you disagree with their statements. Those comments were over the line. Admit it.

I have totally popped some corn for this thread, which I am following whole-heartedly (I'll admit it, it's a boring, rainy day).

aboutready a.k.a 407PAS - you really need to work harder at masking your alter egos. It's quite transparent.

Good effort though.

Popcorn is fresh so I shall wait for more =)

Hahahaha

aboutready and 407PAS are not the same person. This has made my day! Very funny.

I am a FSBO seller, as people who hang out here know. I am not a broker.

I am not aboutready. I have not really followed her posts and I don't know anything about her.

Sorry uwsmom, you are completely wrong here.

cue aboutready...to also deny this claim, of course.....

Look 407PAS - it was easy really. You and aboutready are responding very quickly to one another. The posts are attempts at being very content oriented, yet they're really pointless.

Also, I do not believe 407PAS, as an independent agent, would care why aboutready's posts were deleted.

try again!

They weren't threatening in the slightest. They were obviously hyperbole. They were also directed at someone not even identified in any way, merely quotation marks, without an author indicated. Look, I don't care if you reported it as abuse. It was hardly a comment of any great import. BUT...

You still don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. Brokers are there TO DO BUSINESS FOR THOSE WHO HIRE THEM. To be hired in the future, they ought to do business in a manner which would encourage people to hire them, or to use their services. For brokers who have been nothing less or more than jerks (I toned it down, just for you) toward 95% of the population to be suddenly kissing up to the "second tier" might be offensive to those in the second tier, or heck (toned down, again), anyone below the first tier. I am NOT including all brokers in this rant. There are many brokers I respect, who are doing a great job, in an industry where some bad apples can give people indigestion rather quickly. This whole thread has to do with a broker's quote, not what I should do in finding an apartment.

Regarding lawyers' and doctors' salaries, anyone remember what I think Forbes said was necessary after-tax income to have the "good life" in NYC? That included a couple of kids, an owned apartment, some vacations? I think it was at least $500K after tax. And that implies that you have managed to save up the money necessary to buy, and have no outstanding debt such as student loans.

oh, and I don't have a photographic memory for recalling threads, but it also seemed like one of 407PAS's posts changed a bit during the time of my "deletion threat".

Interesting, no?

uwsmom, honestly I don't think aboutready cares enough to have an alter ego... she's been on here for a while.

aboutready, 500K after tax seems a bit high, but maybe that's why I don't have a classic six or more then one kid.

aifamm, I only have one kid, and still.. Yeah, even I thought $500K was high, but this was in early 2007 I think and things were awfully pricey.

407PAS: " Look, I understand the problems faced by doctors and lawyers, in terms of paying off their student loans and becoming solvent. I am not belittling those problems but their incomes are still relatively high when compared to the general population."

RESPONSE: Yes, for the select lawyers who are able to get jobs at large law firms, their salaries are relatively high when compared to the population as a whole. My point was that to get those salaries, they have to do a lot of things that the rest of the population does not have to do--like graduate from college (4 years), graduate from law school (3 years--during which time you probably don't have a job--certainly not a full time job), and pass the bar exam. And on top of that, you have $50k-$125k in student debt that somone who did not go to law school does not have to pay. And they have to work nights and weekends and holidays that people with "regular" 9-5 jobs often do not have to do.

Moreover, I don't think you appreciate how many lawyers are NOT making big law firm pay. In fact, it's a small percentage of lawyers who make $150k or more. Many lawyers simply can't get a job at a major law firm because they don't have a good enough resume. Moreover, there are literally tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of lawyers who are working as public defenders, prosecutors, judicial clerks, doing other public interest work, doc review temps, self-employed or working for smaller firms and making $30k to $90k.

Heck--even the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States makes LESS than $220k. Think about that for a minute--the single most powerful and prestigious position for a lawyer in the United States pays LESS than $220k. Associate justices make even less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_court_of_the_us#Salary

407PAS: "I think you are understating lawyer's incomes in order to try to prove your point."

See point about re: salary the Chief Justice of the United States. See also point about re: Associate Justices of the Supreme Court.

If that's not good enough I can give you the contact info of some of my Ivy-league educated lawyer friends who are making $50k (or less) working as: public defenders, prosecutors, or doing other legal aid work.

407PAS: "Taxes hit everyone so that is not really a fair argument."

Sure it is a fair argument. For now, let's forget about state and city taxes and just focuses on federal income tax because that will make things easier. The federal income tax is progressive, not flax. It starts very low (10% I think) and goes up as you make more (I think the top marginal tax rate is now 35%). If you make $40 or $45k a year (the median salary in the U.S. is about that much), you pay very little in federal income taxes. If you have a child or two and take typical deductions (including the child tax credit), then you will likely pay NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX AT ALL, and many people actually get a check back from the IRS. (Since the child care tax credit is refundable, you get it even if you have no federal income tax liability).

Compare that with someone who is making $160,000 a year (the base salary for a lawyer in NYC). They will pay federal imcome taxes at a marginal rate of 35%, and an effective rate of 30% or so (I'm just estimating the effective rate). 30% of $160,000 is $48,000. That means that the typical first year year in NYC is paying more in federal income taxes than the entire salary of someone making $45k AND on top of that, the person making $45k may even be getting money from the IRS if they have a child.

So, please, tell me again how discussing taxes isn't fair because "[t]axes hit everyone."

--

Seriously, if you don't believe me on these points, ask any lawyer. I'm sure that they'll back me up.

Ok,
Here is the solution to the mystery. I flagged aboutready's comments and my own. There you go. Sorry, aboutready, your obvious hyperbole was lost on me when you referred to the fact that you are not normally aggressive, but in this case, you would make an exception. Anyway, let's move on, I will take you at your word.

I agree with you about brokers. Yes, they are there to perform a service, if they do not perform the service well, they should not be in business. I have given up dealing with them, just because of all those bad apples you mentioned.

I don't like referring to people in the first tier, second tier, etc only based on their income. I think it is demeaning. Some of the most interesting and kindest people I have ever met probably have some of the lowest incomes and are not even in any of those top tiers.

Who puts any stock in that Forbes rag? Why should Forbes tell me what it takes to lead a 'good' life. People buy a bill of goods based on the nonsense published in those kind of magazines. I try not to give Forbes a dollar of my money.

Lots of people lead good lives without children. Lots of people lead good lives alone, without being married. There are many ways to be. I suppose all these masters of the universe who keep committing suicide over their lost wealth have somehow figured out the secret to a good life?

Gee, Slope, trying to throw the book at me. ;-) Look, the Supreme Court guy is a government position, we all know that government jobs don't pay.

Top partners make over a million a year, easy, no? Sure, I suppose there are few. Actually, your comments make me feel a little better about my own lowly status, that maybe I stand some chance in the market and I will not get completely priced out of every cardboard box.

I pay all the taxes you mentioned, NYC local taxes and I know the pain. Honest. Your $160k guy is stil ahead of your $45k salary person.

The deleted comment was so benign, I'm surprised that I even remembered it was you who posted it. Why in the world would I report it as abuse?

Diversionary tactics are also a dead giveaway =)

PAS, that's why I apologized. Obviously my intent was not coming across. No harm, no foul.

I agree with you entirely on the tier issue, that is why I resent brokers' doing the same and why I put "second tier" in quotes. That is the entire crux of my issue. And, if I had such difficulty in the real estate market of the last few years with a husband who was a relatively well-paid attorney, how much more difficult might it be for others?

I just mentioned the Forbes article as one example of how crazy things had become. Yes, many people do live good lives without children. At this point, that's not an option, and knowing what I know now I still would have had my daughter 12 years ago, and with joy. Renting is hardly the most horrible thing in the world, but as someone raised to believe in the power of the real property deed, it's taken a bit of time for me to adjust.

uwsmom, I never indicated that I thought you had reported it as abuse. Hmm.

Sorry, when you said, "They weren't threatening in the slightest. They were obviously hyperbole. They were also directed at someone not even identified in any way, merely quotation marks, without an author indicated. Look, I don't care if you reported it as abuse.", directly under my post, I thought you were referring to me.

My bad. Anywho - my popcorn is gone. It's been fun.

I think I was writing at the same time you were, but I'm more long-winded and thus slower to post.

aboutready, I think we're in violent agreement, as we used to say at one place where I worked. Get it? Funny, right? :-)

I flagged the posts, as I said before, sorry if I overreacted.

I don't like filters and that is a major reason why am selling direct,without an agent.
I like talking to interested buyers and I will give everybody a fair shake. I even helped a previous buyer with a problem when it was obvious that a bank was trying to stick her with bad terms.

I did a complicated deal in the past, directly from the owner, and I can see now that an agent could have blocked it but there were none and the seller took me at my word and I delivered, even though it was a lot of work. I know what you're saying.

Some brokers are gold, others not so much. Good luck with your sale, and as you put it, there's not much fundamental disagreement here, is there? I'll make sure I watch those rampant violent tendencies in the future. We should be careful, though, or uwsmom will conclude that we've morphed back into one agreeing persona.

You only get the real property deed with a condo, with coops you get shares but you know that. Don't worry, be happy.haha

Kids are a delight. We just returned from a three babies tour of Europe. I wish everybody the best, really.

Sorry all. It was a truly weird sequence of events that wasn't making any sense. I'll put my detective kit away for the night.

Peace has returned to the StreetEasy board. More fun tomorrow, I am sure! ;-)

There used to be a poster hanging in my management company's office, in the room where the closings were held. The poster showed all the parties to a real estate transaction, buyers, sellers, lawyers, agents, bankers, etc etc.

In the first frame, all was calm, everybody was holding their paddle and the boat was steady.

In the second frame, the coxswain yells "CLOSE!!!!", everybody starts bashing each other over the head with their paddles, and the boat starts to tip over. StreetEasy kind of reminds me of that.

"However, Paula Del Nunzio, a senior vice president and managing director at BHS, said that "unique" apartments, like a penthouse, or a particularly large or small apartment, will always fetch a high price, no matter what the state the market is in."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN4QJxnx6cY&eurl=http://ny.therealdeal.com/&feature=player_embedded

Here's some BHS broker spiel that's being e-mailed out to potential clients:

"Hello All, I am attaching our fourth quarter 2008 NYC Residential Market Report. In the report you will find pricing analysis/ trends for the Manhattan cooperative and condominium sectors of the market, as well as a summary of the market for the fourth quarter of 2008. Please let me know if you have any questions.

To summarize:

The average price for Manhattan apartments, including co-ops and condos of all sizes, was $1,449,621 in the fourth quarter of 2008, up slightly from a year ago but down 2% from the third quarter. The median price, the data point with the most integrity as it is not influenced by the highest end of the market, was 8% higher than a year ago at $895,000. The average sale price for condominiums was $1,713,124 in the fourth quarter, 7% lower than a year ago, attributable to the decline in closings at 15 Central Park West and The Plaza. The average price of cooperative apartments was $1,103,952 in the fourth quarter, 3% higher than a year ago. This increase is solely due to a 25% rise in the average price of four bedroom and larger co-ops. These data reflect the delayed effects of the credit crisis on the market. While the number of reported closings fell 9% compared to the same period a year ago, both the average and the median prices were higher. There are two factors contributing to the delay. One is the protracted period of time from contract signing to closing, which for some properties can span a year or more. The other contributing factor is the solid market fundamentals of Manhattan. The fundamentals that have underpinned the long-term stability of the market are limited inventory, significant equity due to cooperative’s restrictive financing, a low percentage of investor-owned residential properties, and a diverse economy.

Sincerely,

Judith A. Furgiuele, CFA

Vice President/Director
Brown Harris Stevens"

"a diverse economy"

What a solid fundamental! BARF.

Reading the post with new eyes this morning. I see where there was much confusion =). LOL, I hold this board in such low regard that I think people are having conversations w/ themselves. That is sad =(.

aboutready - my husband is also a corporate lawyer, so I'm curious, when you say "I had such difficulty in the real estate market of the last few years with a husband who was a relatively well-paid attorney, how much more difficult might it be for others?". W/O getting too personal (since salaries are public knowledge) what level of an attorney was he at that time? B/c I can honestly see that any salary below a mid/senior level partner's could be a deterrant in the manhattan market (at least for anything substantial for a family).

I also don't think $500k take home is that much in manhattan. This, of course, is in comparison to manhattan, not the rest of the country.

"The other contributing factor is the solid market fundamentals of Manhattan."

Really?

"The fundamentals that have underpinned the long-term stability of the market are limited inventory"

A 2-year supply?

"significant equity due to cooperative’s restrictive financing"

And now that that's gone....

"a low percentage of investor-owned residential properties"

In new development?

"and a diverse economy"

Tell that the mayor, governor, and MTA. This is a one-horse town.

What drivel!

Welcome to our thread Steve, where we invent multiple personalities and talk about things with ourselves. Why do I feel so utterly alone? Should I post as aboutready now??? ;-) Hahaha, she will join us shortly, or maybe not. I have no idea as I am not aboutready.

Gee, your $500k take home line as not being too much kind of hurts. That is some serious cash. If I have to compete against two $500k take home married partners, I'm doomed.

By the way, the Danes are the happiest people on earth because they have low expectations.

I'm up, I'm not dead, and lunch is coming up soon, everything is fine!

407PAS - $500k is a lot generally! And two $500k take home married partners is golden (we're a single family household).

BUT - $500k take home in manhattan, when you're hoping to buy something large enough to raise a family, is not a lot of money =(

LOL - I'm distracted (as usual). That should read "single income household". This thread is jinxed for failure!

407pas?

He's now a mid-level partner, but at the time he was a non-equity partner/entry-level partner (had to lateral after not making partner at a top-5 firm, remained associate, then of-counsel, then non-equity partner, turned into a 14-year equity-partnership track and I kind of feel lucky because it's just been getting harder and longer for litigators, at least during the last 8 years). The top-5 firm he was at used to have (when he started) an 8-year partnership track, then it became 9, then 9-10, finally at 10 he was told no but maybe next year and he left for browner but now greener pastures.

We have one kid, but with each child (especially with private school, and I've been through that debate here many a time, but I felt private was necessary), your money shrinks and your real estate needs seem larger. I've committed myself to renting until the numbers make more sense, even doing some renovations on a rental because economically the numbers worked, but I'm used to owning, so perhaps I'll get back in in a couple of years. I know some people who were totally destroyed in the late '80s, swear they'll never buy again, I'm being cautious.

Yes, Steve? I am here. I know you take a lot of abuse on other threads but I appreciate your posts. Don't let them get you down.

By the way, the prevalence of two income families is what bolsters my support for gay marriage. If we're going to run this economic system mainly based on teams of two income earning individuals setting the prices, then I think everybody should have the chance to play the game that way.

I understand the space and monetary pressures with regards to raising families in Manhattan. There are lots of factors. You have empty nester people in large apartments who are not giving them up as well as rent stabilized people who aren't going anywhere either. I don't have any easy answers for you.

Once again, in my long-windedness, many people posted as I was writing. I think I should keep my responses to two sentences then the thread might be more clear.

PAS, alot of it depends on when and how you've made it to the serious cash, and what you've been doing in the meantime. We had a kid relatively early, went to one income that was in the $200K range (before taxes), and started paying for nursery school, then private school, then prices started going through the roof. In 2001 my husband was making $275K (before taxes) as a SENIOR associate at a big firm when 9/11 occurred. Obviously that tragedy was much greater than the subsequent reduction in bonus, but taking $50K away from a $275K total when private school is over $20K hurts. So by the time you get to the partner level these days, unless you've had two incomes steadily saving with little or no student loans, you're already probably behind, and then you get to save a couple of hundred thousand for a down payment.

BTW, I know families where both parents work, but with my husband's hours (although flexible and he's usually home for dinner, the total is still very intense), I don't know how we'd have a family life if we both worked. Choices.

Hello aboutready,
I understand what you're saying. Your story kind of reminds me of a little article that was in one of the New York magazines a while ago that showed that New Yorkers were anxious about their finances, no matter what income bracket they were in. It was kind of sobering, nobody was happy.

We all take on our own share of burdens, hopefully ones that we can carry. I am not going to criticize your choices. I know there are a lot of people in the country who are in much worse shape, financially speaking. So, you know, count your blessings. ;-)

Of course, PAS. Not to belittle the plight of many, or to bemoan mine too greatly. What many of us have been pointing out, however, is that this market had become stupidly overpriced. When doctors and lawyers have a difficult time getting a two bedroom with a dining alcove, things seem a little skewed. That doesn't mean that they are the only ones who deserve it, in the slightest, just kind of a way of measuring the insanity.

Ironically, affordability is just around the corner for us, and now I'm not sure I want it (the condo/coop, not the means). Small town girl that I am I've always bought into the ownership notion, renting seemed strange, but now it's not seeming like such a bad option.

aboutready,
So, we have the same apartment dream and there are only so many of those apartments available. ;-) Demand drives prices, as does people's incomes and their ability to pay higher and higher prices. The entire middle class of the country cannot live in Manhattan.

I think it is still unclear how far prices will fall, even with all of the screaming on this board. We shall see.

If you invest your money somewhere else and beat the appreciation (?) then you can come out ahead when you rent. There is risk everywhere and no guarantee of winning the game, whether you rent or own.

PAS, bubbles also drive prices.

"If you invest your money somewhere else and beat the appreciation (?) then you can come out ahead when you rent."

No, you don't even need that to come out ahead renting.

You just need renting to be cheaper... which it has been for some time.

Hmmm, if you lose a large percentage of your downpayment in the market, have you come out ahead renting? I just don't think it is as cut and dry as some of you people make it out to be. Maybe you're all better investors than I am and have turned in stellar returns, I don't know.

I think Manhattan prices have been surprisingly stable compared to the rest of the country, mainly because the 25% down rules in coops have prevented silly money from really blowing things up. I'm not saying that there has not been a run up in prices, just that it is nothing like the rest of this country.

30yr loans have fallen to an average of 5.01,

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/08/real_estate/mortgage_rates/index.htm?postversion=2009010811

amazingly low, so I do not think it is that bad a time to buy. I know any optimism will get crushed on this board, but, there it is...

PAS, first of all, I think you're in a different universe than many of us, the one called the confoming loan. Checked out jumbos recently?

Two, the percent down rules in coops have been around for a long time. Prices have still risen, and they have still fallen. And, the run up has been astonishing. I bought in 1995 and 2000 and sold in 2004 and have been looking with fair regularity since early 2006.

Yeah, well, I'm selling an apartment that can be bought with a conforming loan, so I suppose I have been looking at those loan rates. On the purchase side, I'm not sure that leveraging highly on a jumbo loan is a good idea in this climate, especially with those rates being as high as they are, as you know. Still, cheap jumbo rates would drives prices even higher, no?

It is probably a good thing that the percent down rules have been around a while, perhaps they have smoothed out the swings. I never questioned price fluctuations, I'm just saying the New York housing market has not been destroyed like a lot of other housing markets in the country.

New York enters downturns late, falls hard. Historically speaking. The swings haven't been smoothed out here, there have been some awful collapses.

Cheap jumbo rates are better than expensive ones. But no, at this point they wouldn't drive prices higher, they might minimize the downturn slightly. You'd also have to change LTV requirements, prohibitive credit rating restrictions, condo pre-sale requirements, etc. Banks can't securitize these loans, and they don't want them on their books unless they smell like the rarest of roses. Easy credit is generally gone, be grateful that the property you are trying to sell falls within the government's desperate attempts to stabilize an asset class that shouldn't be stabilized.

Changing the conforming limit or the Fed agreeing to buy jumbo loans would help, ha ha. (Although, anything could happen, but it's pretty much guaranteed to happen too late if it does).

I love optimism, just don't share it.

Well, you seem kind of angry and bitter but I can't judge your tone from the post. You're renting, your risk is pretty low. You might even get a good deal in the downturn.

Easy credit is what destroyed the housing market in this country. It is a good thing that it is gone. Buyers should have substantial cash in the game in order to keep things real. Your remedy seems to entail loosening up restrictions in order to prompt more people into buying assets they can't really afford.

Most people in this country have mortgages that fit within the conforming limit so I would say that the government is trying to help the most people that it can with their proposals.

To the contrary, I neither happy nor unhappy. Regarding my personal real estate prospects, things are looking peachy. I'll either rent or I'll buy, depending on which one makes sense economically and allowing for some amount that I'd spend to avoid the risk (limited) of rising rents and the ability to own and customize my own home. Regarding this economy, I feel rather angry that the stupidity and greed of some have hurt so many. I really don't know how so many people can so totally separate the two. The government is playing Russian Roulette with my child's future, and I should be happy because I can now afford a 1400 sf apartment on a partner's salary? I shouldn't feel frustrated that the prices that made it so hard for so many were caused by idiocy?

You really don't seem to get what I am writing. Earlier people were getting loans with little documentation, so-so credit ratings, 10% down (condos) with 10% HELOCs eliminating the need for PMI. Now PMI has disappeared, for jumbos frequently banks require 30% down unless you have absolutely unblemished credit. It's called an overcorrection (in credit standards, but rational from a bank's pov) and it is a killer, but it may get even worse as banks continue to factor in potential declines in asset values. I am not saying what I want in the slightest. I am reporting what has changed the purchasing environment in the city. It's not my remedy. Easy credit didn't just exist in California, it existed here as well. Coops preventing financial difficulties? Let's hope the owners didn't rush out post-coop purchase and pick up some prime Hamptons property.

You also seemed to have missed the sentence "the government's desperate attempts to stabilize an asset class that shouldn't be stabilized."

aboutready,
Ok, you have a flattened affect. ;-) I will try to keep that in mind when I model your side of our discussion.

You were not specific enough in labeling all the idiots. There were the idiot buyers who took out loans they could not possibly afford.There were the idiot real estate agents who helped talk them into buying those properties. There were the idiot appraisers who assigned overinflated values. There were the idiot loan officers and banks who handed out no-doc, 0% down, loans. There were the idiot lawyers who didn't advise their clients not to take the bad deals.

In the end, the whole model was based on the idea that someone else could always be stuck with the bad debt. Guess what, now all of the taxpayers are stuck with the bad debt, that would be you and me, and I know I didn't involve myself in any of these shenanigans, but I will have to pay.

The government is trying to do the best they can in what is a terrible situation. I did read your sentence and I replied to it by saying that the government is trying to help out most people in this country who are in trouble, mainly those people without jumbo loans. I don't really understand why you think the government should take no action. So, you really want to see things get much worse?

I think you overcorrection is only slightly more stringent than what the rules should have been in the first place. Thanks for reminding me why I will never buy a condo in this town. I'm not getting in bed with a bunch of 10% deadbeats who are carrying two liens from day one. PMI has always been a slush fund for the banking industry because they never tell you when the ratio tilts in your favor. I haven't paid it in 20 years and never will.

As for the post-purchase Hamptonian splurge scenario. Sure, it is possible, but, you know what, people who behave a certain way before a purchase, most likely behave the same way after the purchase. The traits that got a person in the position to buy a substantial real estate asset are most likely the traits that will allow that person to keep the asset and profit from its ownership.

I have always been conservative with money, have impeccable credit, and am just fine. I am not rich, but doing ok, thank you very much. Perhaps I learned all this from my mother:

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/spending-too-much-blame-mom/

Teach your children well.

I'm sorry captain, I can't hold her much longer. She's going to blow.

KABOOM. She's gone.

Haha, there you are. Well, I guess it is time to hunker down and hold on as we await the explosion.