If You Can Demonstrate Market Movement With Comps: Upper East Side Edition

what happened to lehman's employees? are most of them unemployed by now or were they absorved by other institutions?

kas, I saw that. Amazing floor plan, one of the best i've seen.

Another comp from the upper echelon. Sold in Feb-09 for $7.8M, down 27.4% from a peak ask of $10.75M. The sellers bought it in Sept-06 for $7.128M. So, selling at a 9.4% gain over purchase price they just about broke even when you consider front/back-end closing costs. http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/326477-condo-3-east-75th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

kas242 - can you please illuminate on your comment about 79 E 79? Is the seller connected to Lehman Brothers?

1095 Park ave #6C Another chop today..bringing it down to $1,357 per f2...hmmm

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/367125-coop-1095-park-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york
StreetEasy History

11/22/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Elliman at $4,500,000
12/16/2008
Price decreased to $4,250,000
01/13/2009
Price decreased to $3,995,000
02/23/2009
Price decreased to $3,750,000
03/10/2009
Price decreased to $3,495,000

The seller at 79 E 79 is Dick Fuld's daughter (also the owner of the classic six at 175 E 79). It appears that she did a major renovation at 79, prepared to sell 175 once 79 was habitable, and then pulled 175 off the market just as Lehman was collapsing. Now the gorgeous, renovated 79 is on the market for approx. what they paid for it before the renovation.

A few weeks ago, Happyrenter mentioned 1070 Park Avenue #8B. The price was reduced $245K today, to $3.25MM:
--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT ...... #8B ............................ |↓ $3,250,000 3 beds
05/21/2007 . #8B $3,700,000 -5.0% |↓ $3,895,000 3 beds 2 baths
11/29/2006 . #4B $3,600,000 ....... |
03/07/2006 #15B $3,265,000 -3.8% | $3,395,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths

More finance fallout.

1100 Park Ave #15B $5,500,000 3bd 3bth 2,450 f2 $2,245 per f2 new listing today.

I guess they didn't get the message that Carnegie Hill, Park Ave 3beds are trading south of $1,500 per f2

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/390792-coop-1100-park-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

1230 Park, #17C -- 2 bed / 2 bath. This apartment had had some crazy price reductions and increases over the last 10 months, but it hit its lowest list today at $800,000. Negatives: The master bath looks extremely cramped, and it's a bit too north on Park for many folk's taste. Nonetheless it shows significant price movement.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/238959-coop-1230-park-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

#10C sold for $1,050,000 in May 2006 -- it's kitchen seems to have been more 'estate' than that of 17C.

skippy no need to fell sorry for them... these are the same people who call regular people flying coach "cattle." I've heard "regular" people called a lot worse by people with money (not saying they all do), but Fuld was a douche...can't see the apple falling that far from the tree... on the other hand, I knew this girl in college, the father was loaded and she drove a VW beetle and dormed... Somehow, it would have shown more class if she rented. i think Trump's son only had a$1MM home :).... when you have a lot more than others, its' classier to tone down the $$$$$ IMHO... Note this applies to people who have not "earned" their keep... so I'm free to flaunt my money all I want :)

Adding comps for 1100 Park Ave #15B:

12B $5,016,510 on 6/27/06
6B $4,830,000 on 1/10/05

The listing page for 12B still shows up on Corcoran's web site. The pictures suggest a tired property, but there is not enough shown to conclude how much work (gut or something less) would have been needed. It sold well below the $5.4mm ask and for a slim premium to the lower floor comp from 18 months earlier. Given the general rate of escalation in the market during those 18 months, the 12B price many have been held down by expected reno costs. I have no information on condition of 6B to complete the comparison. 15B appears to be in good shape and has the high floor going for it, but 10-14% over 2005/6 comps feels somewhat aspirational compared to where large family apartments are comping - even at current asking, let alone future contract/closing, prices - on the UES and (especially) UWS IYCDMMWC threads.

I'll also note (without taking a position on the question) that SE has 12B at 2,870sf vs. patient09's 2,450sf for 15B. Even at the larger number, 15B is listed close to $2,000 psf, which again is not a small number.

more movement in park avenue mid-tier. could park ave in the 90s be following west end?

3A just relisted
STREETEASY HISTORY
03/30/2007
Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Sotheby's at $2,750,000.
03/03/2009
Sotheby's Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $1,999,000.
03/17/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $1,795,000.

07/16/2008 #9A $2,300,000 -7.8%
07/27/2007 #16A $2,200,000 -4.1%
07/09/2007 #11A $2,700,000
04/27/2006 #2A $2,125,000
08/16/2004 #15A $1,850,000 -
07/28/2004 #14A $1,850,000

these poor folks have had their place on the market for nearly 2 years, and now they are asking well under the 2nd floor same line comp from 2006. can they sue their brokers for malpractice?

this is a major price development for the upper east side. 22 East 88th--the neighbors are going to KILL these people. this is huge movement--a move-in condition classic seven in a great building in prime carnegie hill with an initial asking price of $2.5.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/392484-coop-22-east-88th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york

SALES LISTINGS FOR THIS BUILDING
SAVE Active Listings (3)
$3,600,000
22 East 88th Street #8F 4 beds 2,000 ft²
Open House: Wed, Mar 18 (10:00 - 11:30)
↓ $3,495,000
22 East 88th Street #12F 4 beds
$2,500,000
22 East 88th Street #6F 3 beds 2,000 ft²
Open House: Wed, Mar 18 (10:00 - 11:30)

recorded sales:

12/13/2006 #8F $2,575,000 -2.8% $2,650,000 ↓ (estate condition)
10/31/2005 #4F $3,550,000

if this apartment really is move-in condition, as stated in the listing, it is now asking 30% less than the 2005 price of a lower floor comp, and the same price as a 2006 estate sale that needed a complete gut. 30% below a 2004 price? jeez louise.

hr - what is the address of upper Park Ave apt. 3A?

As to "these poor folks" - perhaps. Or perhaps the brokers have spent two years trying to get unrealistic client to meet the market. (Not that I have any great love, or even respect for that matter, for brokers, but one can never be sure of the dynamics from the outside.) Based on the comps, it's hard to have much sympathy for someone who went to market on the 3rd floor unit at $2.75mm (around the time the two higher floor 2007 comps would have gone to contract) and then failed to sell. The greater surprise would have been if it had sold anywhere near the initial ask.

re: 22 e 88th

Note that 12 F isn't the same floorplan, it appears to have an extra library.

Also, 8E is also a 7 just in contract, listed by the same broker as 6F
01/14/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $2,850,000.
02/05/2009 Price decreased by 12% to $2,495,000.
03/10/2009 Listing entered contract.

It is 8F that is the bigger outlier.

HR was referring to 1150 Park:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/392485-coop-1150-park-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

mpaltrow,

i think you are a bit off here. yes, 12F has a different floorplan (same footprint plus an extra room), but 8F does not--and 8F is asking less than what 4F sold for in 2005. if a move-in condition apartment is asking 30% less than a lower floor same line comp from four years ago i don't really see how you can deny that that is major, major movement. that implies well over 40% off the peak (2005 was at least 10% lower than 2007) unless i am really missing something.

8F may looks significantly overpriced now, i agree, but that's not the main point. this apartment is selling at a huge discount to a same line lower floor comp.

as for the E line sale, it was estate condition.

sidelinesitter,

the comment was tongue-in-cheek. obviously it's their own fault for holding out for a crazy price and getting caught in a declining market.

happyrenter,

We are vigorously agreeing. We don't know what 8E sold for - but the 6F listing broker sure does. And knowing that, she priced 6F at $2.5. I agree this represents a lot of movement. My point was that 12F may not be THAT overpriced. 8F will be lucky to get what they paid - all of their renovations will be a loss. And if they don't move quickly to approach 6F's listing price, they may get stuck chasing the market down or pulling the listing.

happyrenter - I agree with your analogy between upper Park Ave and West End. If anything, the observation applies even more to the 22 E 88 situation (ignoring the fact that it is not in fact on Park), which as you note is a really major development. I have been watching the UWS action (not limited to West End by any means) enviously and wondering why movement in UES family-sized pre-wars has generally been much more modest to date. The 1150 Park and 22 E 88 examples certainly look like cracks in the dam...

Not paying attention much, on holiday and all. But holy moly on 22 E88. OMG!..You think 8F and 12F gave it No u di int!. This should be on the Holy crap my neighbor is killing me thread. Maybe reality is sloooowwwlllly setting in. ouch. where is w67 on this?

Revisiting 1133 Park Avenue "E" line - the corner classic 7 with the unusual maid's room off one bedroom. #4E was just reduced another $250K, to $1.95MM - 30% below the peak comp one floor down, and within $225K of the owner's 2004 basis.
--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT ....#4E ............................ |↓ $1,950,000 3 beds 2 baths 1,700 ft²
08/01/2007 . #3E $2,805,000 +8.1% | . $2,595,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths
02/13/2007 #15E $2,500,000 ....... |
07/13/2004 . #4E $1,725,000 ....... |

#3E may have had an edge in condition, but Elliman's contention that #4E requires only "minor updating" appears credible. No idea what shape #4E was in five years ago, when the seller bought it.

Ok, here's some fodder for us under $1M folks.
Asking less than 2006 sale.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/393005-coop-345-east-81st-street-yorkville-new-york
09/05/2006
Previous Sale recorded for $670,000
03/19/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Elliman at $659,000.
Not sure if they updated anything. Description claims they were asking $799k (ha!) but I don't see that in SE (new broker mind trick?)

Asking same as 2005 sale.
This one's having a fun ride.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/206288-coop-308-east-79th-street-upper-east-side-new-york
Notice the attempted flip.
11/01/2005
Previous Sale recorded for $499,000
11/24/2005
Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $575,000.
04/24/2006
Corcoran Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $549,000.
03/23/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $595,000.
09/09/2008
Price decreased by 3% to $580,000.
09/21/2008
Listing is no longer available.
09/30/2008
Re-listed by Corcoran.
12/09/2008
Delisted temporarily.
01/21/2009
Re-listed by Corcoran.
01/21/2009
Price decreased by 5% to $549,000.
03/03/2009
Price decreased by 4% to $529,000.
03/18/2009
Price decreased by 6% to $499,000.

the recorded sales are starting to reflect the decline:

60 east 9th
recorded sale
03/12/2009 #516 $680,000 -2.7%
05/08/2008 #216 $810,000 -1.8%

17% off downtown (strongest area) under a million (strongest price point) AND with a quite significant difference in floors.

woops, wrong thread sorry

Re: 22 E 88, apt 8F

12/13/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $2,575,000.
01/23/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $3,600,000.

Is this a forced sale?

dwell: Ex-Blackstone Private Equity. Now Treasury Department. Relo, maybe?

Thanks, W81st. The 2 yr turnaround didn't make sense.
Wonder why they don't just hold on to it. The Treasury job probly won't last forever. It's a beautiful apt & block, right by the Gugg & CP.

dwell: It doesn't look like they're all that eager to sell. More of a "Make me move" deal, probably.

Thanks, W81. It's too far uptown for me, but if I was considering that area, I'd go for that bld & that street.

i love this one: if your bizarre pricing strategy has been a complete failure for the last 10 months, keep up the same thing and pray that it will finally work out:

1230 Park Avenue 17C:
STREETEASY HISTORY
05/16/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $1,150,000.
06/28/2008
Price decreased by 9% to $1,050,000.
09/28/2008
Price decreased by 6% to $990,000.
10/25/2008
Price decreased by 4% to $949,000.
11/13/2008
Price decreased by 3% to $925,000.
12/09/2008
Price decreased by 3% to $895,000.
01/05/2009
Price increased by 17% to $1,050,000.
01/31/2009
Price decreased by 5% to $995,000.
02/27/2009
Price decreased by 7% to $925,000.
03/06/2009
Price decreased by 9% to $845,000.
03/10/2009
Price decreased by 5% to $800,000.
03/21/2009
Price decreased by 1% to $795,000.

that 5k chop is going to make all the difference! maybe they should raise the price back up to $1,050,000 again.

meanwhile, the price for the lower floor comp from 2006 fades further and further into the rearview mirror:

recorded sales
05/24/2006 #10C $1,050,000

West 81st = Google Whore

Revisiting 103 East 75th Street, where this thread began:

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT .... #7FE ............................ | . $3,100,000 3 beds
CURRENT .... #5FE ............................ |↓ $2,550,000 3 beds 2,300 ft²
04/21/2005 #7FE $3,137,255 ....... |

#5FE dropped $445K last week. The finishes in #7FE are quite elegant, but #5FE is very nice too, and $550K is a big gap that will have to narrow if #7FE wants to compete. More to the point from a market movement perspective, #7FE is already below the owner's early-2005 purchase price, so any downward movement takes it deep into 2004. #5FE is probably there already.

1150 Fifth Avenue "B" line: Corner nine (yes, nine). LR and Library face the Park. #8B was just re-listed at $3.475MM, a full 40% below the peak comp three floors below. #8B needs work, but so did #5B. The footprints are identical; both floorplans have been tweaked. Overlooking the park, on a major cross street, the extra three floors of elevation are quite valuable, so the real decline from peak cold be well over 40%.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/1150-5-avenue-manhattan
--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
NEW LISTING . #8B ............................ |↓ $3,475,000 3 beds
08/09/2007 . #5B $5,785,000 -3.5% |↓ $5,995,000 Sold 3 beds 2 baths
01/12/2007 . #2B $4,925,000 -1.4% | . $4,995,000 Sold 3 beds 2 baths
01/12/2007 . #3B $5,600,000 -6.6% |↓ $5,995,000 3 beds 3 baths 2,600 ft²
09/19/2006 #12B $6,785,000 |↓ $6,785,000 3 beds 3 baths
05/20/2005 . #7B $1,650,000 ....... |
12/15/2004 . #4B $4,150,000 ....... |

#12B clears the hill and trees for a full reservoir view, and it was in better condition, so it's in a different class. Don't know the story on #7B. Most likely a unique footprint.

"could be", that is.

this is quite the dramatic decline; i haven't followed the UES in the 90s as closely as the UWS because i don't like the neighborhood, but there appears to be a similar dynamic. the view, while not full reservoir, is nonetheless magnificent. but the maintenance in this one is the kicker: $5500.

It's both a kicker and something of a vicious circle. When these apartments were trading at $5-6MM, an extra thousand or two per month in maintenance probably didn't faze the kind of buyer who could pay $2MM up front and carry a mortgage of close to $4MM. The maintenance is probably a bigger deterrent for a $3MM buyer. (BTW, the public school catchment is more likely to be a concern for that buyer too.) So I'm not sure falling prices are really widening the buyer pool for these apartments all that much. Mostly, I think this class of homes is just getting cheaper for cash-rich buyers who could afford them already - and who now have a lot more options.

Anyway, the maintenance was never low, and recent increases haven't been so big that they discredit the comps.

I also think that E96 and above declines more in this environment.

uppereast: Maybe, but 96th Street is much less of a red line on Fifth Avenue than, say, Park.

Carnegie Hill as a whole seems to be taking a big hit, especially north of the PS6 zone. (BTW, the premium for PS6 may drop if there's really a shortage of space for in-zone kids).

That's intersting news, west 81, there might not all all zoned kids in PS6?

UE, see yesterday's NYT article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/education/24schools.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=ps%206%20zoning&st=cse

FROM THE WSJ - FOR ALL THE "BITTER RENTERS" OUT THERE...

Manhattan Rents Falling, Falling
By Dawn Wotapka
Equity Residential

More evidence that it%u2019s a good time to be a renter in Manhattan. Apartment giant Equity Residential has cut asking rents by an average 13% since February, bringing the total decline to roughly 25% in a year, according to Macquarie Capital analyst Michael Levy.

In recent weeks alone, the Trump Place buildings on the Upper West Side saw prices slashed an average 15.5%, he said. Studios got a nearly 20% haircut.

At the Riverside Boulevard address that boasts a round-the-clock concierge staff, a 421-square-foot studio starts at $1,920, excluding a free month of rent, according to Mr. Levy. In November of 2007, the asking price for a similar unit was $2,750, and the rent bonus wasn%u2019t offered, he added.

%u201CBecause of the downturn in the economy, we believe that high-end apartment operators are having a much tougher time finding tenants willing to pay what they had been paying a couple of years ago,%u201D Mr. Levy said. It%u2019s tough to be renting to %u201Cbankers in the city or anyone affected by the recession.%u201D

An Equity Residential representative declined to comment, citing upcoming earnings results. The Chicago-based company has more than 20 buildings in the New York metro area, with about half of those units in Manhattan.

Landlords are working harder than ever to fill apartments in a post-bubble world, said Jamie LeFrak, whose family owns tens of thousands of rental units region-wide. %u201CUnlike the sales market where sellers are holding out hope for a miracle that will never come%u2026landlords will choose to rent at market rate immediately.%u201D

west81st,

i completely agree about the maintenance: as prices fall it becomes more and more of a deterrent to buyers. in other words, the apartment isn't really competing against other apartments in the $3.5 million range with maintenances of, say $3k, because that extra $2500 per month in maintenance pushes up the cost to more like $4 million. i agree, as well, that this does not discredit the comps. it's simply an added drag on the apartment.

kas242, what happens in first grade then? I thought first grade is mandatory. Will they get you a spot in another schcool?

West81st - I generally agree with your comments about the $3mm buyer ($5,500 maintenance affects affordability, public school zone matters at least somewhat, options as a buyer are increasing, etc.), and in many ways you are profiling me in your post. I do think that such significant price changes widen the buyer pool more than you might think. Your cash-rich buyer who could swing the $5-6mm apartment is one thing, but the $3mm buyer who thought that a well laid out 7 or maybe an 8, at 50% down / 50% financing was a reasonable aspiration both from a financial and board standpoint gets really excited when 9 rooms start to look accessible. I added 1150 5th 8B to my sales listings yesterday for this reason. I can't be the only person in this financial zip code; in fact I suspect that there are more in this zone than the $5-6mm, maintenance-indifferent zip code. PS 198 is an issue though. Probably makes 1150 5th more theoretical than practical for us.

uppereast - I think you misunderstand the Times article. It is not saying that the kids can't go to public K, but rather that DoE doesn't know yet where they will go. See the comment from the DoE official about waiting until September. I can't imagine much that is less satisfactory as a parent than being told to wait until September to know where my 5 year old is going to start school (in September), but it's not the same as saying that you are shut out of all public schools.

sidelinesitter: Excellent post. I stand corrected. I also have to tip my hat to you for astute management. If you were a $3MM buyer a year ago, and you're still a $3MM buyer today, you have weathered the storm much better than most of us. A lot of people who used to live in your "zip code" are in financial Siberia now.

You're reading the Times article correctly. It's Pre-K where the City only offers a certain number of slots. I've never heard of anyone being shut out of K altogether. There's just no guarantee you get a particular school. By the way, this situation shows that the brokerage firms were pretty smart to tell their people they had to stop answering questions about school catchments. The liability if a school fills up, or a zone line changes, could be huge.

One other thing: for big, Park-view apartments on the UES, the maintenance at 1150 5th isn't really that far out of line. If you want to see a building where sellers are hog-tied by maintenance, try this one: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/371292-coop-730-park-avenue-lenox-hill-new-york

900 Fifth Avenue "C" line: large, south-facing six. View of Frick and Park from LR. 11C, 8C and 4C have all had cuts of 13-21% this month.

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT .... #11C ............................ |↓ $2,495,000 2 beds 1,800 ft²
CURRENT ..... #4C ............................ |↓ $2,445,000 2 beds
CURRENT ..... #8C ............................ |↓ $2,550,000 2 beds
05/20/2008 #12C $2,985,000 . -0.5% | ↓$3,000,000 2 beds 2 baths
06/01/2007 . #5C $2,950,000 -14.5% | . $3,449,000 2 beds 3.5 baths
10/29/2004 . #3C $1,975,000 ....... |
06/02/2004 #16C $2,700,000 ....... |

Yikes - sorry about the formatting there... something weird with the arrows.

I saw that 730 Park maint. yesterday when I was searching around. So apparently you pay $3000 more per month in maint. just for the honor of living between 720 and 740. Personally, my favorite listings right now are 22 E 88 - 12F; and 1095 Park - 6C. I guess we're looking at the same sorts of apts sidelinesitter. Kind of scared of the board at 1095 Park, though.

xellam, are you ready to move? I have bids out to similar properties. So far they didn't take them. Have you had conversations with the broker yet? I can do an all-cash deal so hoping that's a plus for owner.

Is 1095 Park a tough building? 22 E 88 looks terrific, and there are quite a few on the market there now, which should give 12F less leverage.

22 E 88 has a pretty easy board. We bid on an apartment a couple of years ago, weren't that cash rich and would have been approved according to a contact we had on the board (someone else outbid us though). The funniest thing is that that apartment is on the market again. The one that has the modern renovation.

P.S. We were pretty close on the price. I am glad we didn't up our bid... There are three apartments I am interested in. Will report when a bid sticks. One lowered the price quite dramatically and the broker told me they already got bids over ask. Let's see. I am very excited though! Waited so many years and feel this is a great opportunity.

buyer09: According to wallfly.com, 1095's board requires 67% down, and then 3-4x the purchase price liquid after the purchase. Plus society recommendations, etc. So basically your stereotypical Park Avenue building.

carnegie: No, I haven't had any conversations yet. The amount of 8s coming on the market right now is astounding; seeing if anything else comes along in the near future. And good to know about the board at 22 E 88...too bad you didn't get 8F then, maybe you could have done a less bizarre renovation. I love the fact that 12F is an un-conventional 8 (3bd + library)...but sf wise, it's actually smaller than the 1095 Park listing, which's rooms are definitely better for entertaining.

carnegie: While I am a definite real estate bear, I do agree that now can be a great time to buy apartments in this range. Especially if they are obvious estate sales, like 1095. You know that apartment didn't cost them $3.5M, so bidding low isn't going to cut into anything except someone's inheritance. Also, I imagine 12F can be bid low as well, now that 6F and 8E have ruined the party for 8F and 12F, as mentioned above. Also, do you know if the 21 E 87 listing is a 7 or an 8? It's hard to tell from the broker description.

Haven't seen listing at 21 E 87. So you are going to wait longer since you are a bear?

It shows up when you look up 22 E 88. Sister building. And I'm not sure; I guess it depends on how low they are willing to go. Just because you have $3.5M+ in cash to buy a place doesn't mean you shouldn't try for $2.8-3M. 500k is 500k.

I like 22E88, 12F probably because it is the biggest and has the most potential.

xellam - yes, we seem to be looking at similar things, although you may be at a bit higher price point. I browse at higher price points to understand relative value and to get a preview of things that might fall into my range, but I value the lack of financial stress (paid cash for current apt) and prefer not to buy so much apartment that I worry about the burden. As my screen name suggests, I don't see any current urgency to act and believe that the market continues to come my way. I may miss a few nice trades along the way, but I'm confident that there will be more between now and, say, end of 2010. That said, 12F is pretty sweet; best value I've seen yet. I'll bet it comes down more, but sells above my bogey. Beats 1095 Park on school zone too.

I know a family at 1095 Park and am surprised at the wallfly.com intel. They probably bought when 67% of purchase price meant $1-1.3mm on a $1.5-2mm purchase price, but I doubt that they had 3-4x liquid post-purchase. Also surprised that the board is so hoity-toity that far north on Park. They need to get over themselves.

I've been as guilty as anyone, but I'll note that we've had a lot of chatter off the comps topic the last few hours. The IFYCDMMWC threads are precious things and deserving of respect. If we want to discuss UES 7 to 9 room pricing and preferences, maybe we should take it to a new thread.

I think Michael J Fox lives at 1095.

sidelinesitter, have your current apt on market?

uppereast - No. I don't see myself as close to jumping on something and I need a place to live, so it would be very premature.

sidelinesitter, thought you might want to sell and then rent for a while? Or do you figure you sell low but also buy low?

uppereast - well settled in and kids are small, so would only move if it was to the forever, family-sized apartment. And yes, I also figure sell low, but buy low. I am short housing in that we are in a smaller place than we eventually want to have. The current apartment is a partial hedge on that position, but I still have a favorable exposure to a falling market because the price of what I want to buy is falling more than the price of what I own. In theory I could sell and rent, converting my housing position into a naked short, but I'm OK with the current situation.

bump

beautiful carnegie hill apartment headed below the lower floor comps:

1100 Park 15B
STREETEASY HISTORY
03/10/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $5,500,000.
03/28/2009
Price decreased by 11% to $4,900,000.

recorded sales
06/27/2006 #12B $5,016,510 -7.1%
01/07/2005 #6B $4,830,000

Another prime park location, now asking the 2004 same unit sale price:
1036 park avenue 20BC
STREETEASY HISTORY
10/20/2004
Previous Sale recorded for $2,585,000.
02/18/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $2,750,000.
03/28/2009
Price decreased by 5% to $2,600,000.

170 East 79th Street, # 5-6A closed for $2,150,000:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/795807

Last list price was $2,495,000. This same apt. had sold in August 2004 for $2,100,000

A very large classic six at 142 EAst 71st, apt. 10A, closed for $2,050,000. Last list price was $2,395,000.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/349495-coop-142-east-71st-street-lenox-hill-new-york

11A sold for $1,950,000 in October 2004.
8A closed for $2,325,000 in January 2005, and sold again in June 2006 for $2,295,000
3A sold for $2,425,000 in June 2007.
7a Sold for $2,375,000 in August 2007

2004 pricing seems to be the rule, not the exception. thanks kas.

2004 pricing may have been the rule when these went into contract but what is the rule now?
any way to know when they went into contract? if it was even just 3 months ago haven't things gotten worse?

170 East 79th Street went into contract early February.

142 East 71st Street entered contract early January.

Today brings what could only be called a grudging response from 103 East 75th #7FE to the price chop from #5FE last week (discussed by West81st above). A $105K reduction takes the owners meaningfully below cost, but I'm just not sure it moves the needle either in the neighbor-on-neighbor competition or on the appeal of 7FE in isolation.

01/13/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Warburg at $3,100,000.
03/27/2009 Price decreased by 3% to $2,995,000

The gap to 5FE at $2,550,000 is still huge. One would have to say that the 7FE owners either aren't too serious about selling now or aren't too connected with today's reality.

Re: 22 E 88, #6F
The apartment is far from move-in condition. The bathrooms need work, the kitchen needs updating, and all bedrooms are facing a brick wall that's less then 10 ft away on west side of apartment. 8F clears same mentioned wall.

1150 5th Avenue #5B (discussed by West 81st above) got to contract in just a week after the last price chop and a month after being relisted. Apparently the last listing price at ~40% off the peak comp and 16% off the lower floor 2004 comp was enough to get someone off the sidelines with their checkbook. Can't wait to see the contract price when it closes.

side: Not my hood, but..lets say it prints at 3mm, that rolls out to about $1,250 per f2, with direct park and southern exposures. Granted condition could be challenged and maintenance at $2,28 per f2 is a bit steep, but wow. This seems like a new price point. Very sexy!

Maybe they had the lowball bid already, and the price cut was a last-ditch attempt to draw something better. One week is awfully fast to get a contract signed on a property like that. BTW, for clarity - I think it's #8B.

Oops, yes, 8B. Proofread before posting. Sorry. On the tactics, your theory seems like the most plausible one. That or some variation also involving a buyer who was deep in the process prior to last week.

FWIW... if that was me, I'd withdraw my bid. Stupid broker trick. OR I would've asked for $100K off in this market... don't use me as a dark horse.

howz tricks westie and p09?

120 East 75th Street. Couple of interesting stories developing here. One is a same-unit resale on #3A, $200K below the owner's 2006 purchase price and still sitting three weeks after the chop:
--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT ....#3A ............................ |↓ $1,275,000 2 beds 1,200 ft²
03/03/2008 #4A $1,575,000 -4.5% | . $1,650,000 Sold 2 beds 1.5 baths
08/16/2006 #3A $1,475,000 -0.0% | . $1,475,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths
07/27/2006 #8A $1,300,000 -6.8% | . $1,395,000 2 beds 1.5 baths
09/27/2004 #7A $1,300,000 ..........|

Also worth watching are #9B, another five that went to contract asking a 2004/2005ish number, and #4C, a big seven with 5BR potential that just dropped to $1.795MM. The maintenance on the fives is very high, but for some reason #4C much more reasonable at about $1.40/sq.ft. Would have to check the fine print on that one to see if a rebate or some other gimmick is in play. Anyway, breaking $1.8MM in the PS6 zone on an apartment that size seems notable, if your kids can handle ambulance noise and the occasional whiff of formaldehyde from the morgue.

Actually, scratch the formaldehyde and ambulances. That would be 76th-77th.

Does anyone know what the apartments that are currently for sale at 975 Park last sold for? I can't seem to get ACRIS to open properly? I think they are 4D, 9D and 12A....

The large seven at 12 East 75th needs a complete gut, but the amount of space is impressive. I don't think anything (kitchens, baths, wallpaper, etc.) has been touched since ca. 1975. This is a back-of-building apt. that has virtually no views. One of the bedrooms sees a bit of townhouse charm, but also of note is the children's playground seen from the living room / dining room. Potential noise problem? Anyhow, whoever takes this one on is going to sink a lot of money into updating it.

Correction for above - The address should read as 120 East 75th, apt. 4C.

silentwaiter, their previous sales were all pre-ACRIS.

By the way, a broker told me today that 1150 Fifth's listing price was partly due to the market but also due to some problems the building has. Does anyone know the building well? Is that true?

Thanks, NWT

kas242: Thanks for the additional info on 120 East 75th.

Let's try something a little humbler, a few blocks away (channeling Julia):
205 East 78th Street #12B. Pre-war 1BR/1BA. Listed as 800 sq.ft; probably closer to 700. Just reduced to $450K at Elliman. Originally listed with BHS last August for $565K. Maintenance is on the high side at $1406, but it's still getting close to rent-buy parity.

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT ....#12B ............................ |↓ $450,000 1 bed 800 ft²
06/19/2008 #17B $635,000 -1.6% |↓ $645,000 Sold 1 bed 1 bath 800 ft²
07/02/2007 #16B $590,000 +1.9% | . $579,000 1 bed 1 bath 700 ft²
06/29/2006 #9B $534,000 -0.9% | . $539,000 Sold 1 bed 1 bath 800 ft²
08/04/2005 #4B $527,500 ..........|

Condition is fine, so this looks like legitimate retrenchment to 2004, at least.

812 Park Ave..9/10D..enters contract
amazing what the beauty of pricing it a bit closer to reality can do for a sale

THE BAD
Here is the history of 5/6C

12/03/2007
Listed in StreetEasy by Sotheby's at $12,000,000.
01/29/2008
Price decreased by 8% to $11,000,000.
02/26/2008
Price decreased by 5% to $10,500,000.
04/14/2008
Price decreased by 14% to $9,000,000.
11/18/2008
Price decreased by 6% to $8,500,000.
01/11/2009
Price decreased by 12% to $7,500,000.
03/05/2009
Price decreased by 13% to $6,500,000.
03/13/2009
Listing entered contract.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/158190-coop-812-park-avenue-upper-east-side-new-york

THE GOOD
On the other hand, here is the history of 9/10D
Think 5/6C could have saved themselves some loot by offering it aggressively early instead of chasing the market down?
02/03/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Sotheby's at $8,250,000.
03/13/2009
Price decreased by 16% to $6,950,000.
04/04/2009
Listing entered contract.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/378841-coop-812-park-ave-upper-east-side-new-york

9/10D looks like a great floorplan----any guesses on the sales price----I'll say 6.5M

Can you say 2003 pricing?, sure ya can!
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/385295-coop-1036-park-avenue-upper-east-side-new-york

Actually, P09 the asking price is almost exactly what they paid in 2004. However, if we consider that the average spread between ask and sale is about 10% nowadays, yes, it may very well sell for a 2003 price.

yep, I am just extrapolating the trend, thats all.

trompiloco,

that apartment at 1036 is currently ASKING it's 2004 price--that's their absolute best case scenario. but, as you point out, that best-case is highly unlikely, as there is an average 10% spread between the final asking price and the sale price these days. on top of that, the apartment isn't even in contract, so even a 2003 price would be a rosy scenario for these folks.

here's an example of....i don't know, probably 2002 pricing?

1165 Park Avenue Apartment 14C
STREETEASY HISTORY
01/21/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Warburg at $3,495,000.
03/04/2009
Price decreased by 7% to $3,250,000.
04/06/2009
Price decreased by 9% to $2,950,000.

also on the market:
STREETEASY HISTORY
03/31/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $4,750,000.
05/08/2008
Listing entered contract.
05/30/2008
Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
08/09/2008
Price decreased by 3% to $4,595,000.
10/10/2008
Price decreased by 8% to $4,250,000.
12/06/2008
Price decreased by 6% to $3,995,000.
02/10/2009
Price decreased by 5% to $3,795,000.
03/02/2009
Price decreased by 8% to $3,495,000.

recorded sale
07/19/2004 #2C $2,800,000

so in 2004 the classic 8 on the 2nd floor sold for $2.8. now the same apartment on the 14th floor is asking within 7% of that price. and there has to be a 25% premium to go from the 2nd floor to the 14th with views. the east 90s seem to be going the way of the west 90s.

HR: Couldn't agree more, don't have the time to get examples right now, but Park ave sixes and 7's 85th-96th St seem to be in a world of hurt. Seems on same trajectory as WEA sixes, just with a 4-6 month lag. Based on personal knowledge, this pocket seems to be the epicenter of overlevered, midlevel I-Banker types that need to get liquid.

985 Park Avenue. First attempted resale is already below owner's basis.

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT ... #6/7 .......................... |↓ $4,950,000 #67 3 beds 2,469 ft²
12/12/2007 #6/7 $5,300,000 ........ |

I remember looking at these a few years ago. If by some weird idea you thought, hey, maybe I will put down some wall-to-wall carpet in my new joint. Then ordered up 2,469 F2 of carpet, when the installers arrived, they would scratch their heads for a minute and say, ok, I guess we're supposed to double it over and install it.