If You Can Demonstrate Market Movement With Comps: Brooklyn Edition

Well I'll repost my earlier comment which appears to have been the catalyst for the massive thread creation.

Here's a brooklyn price-chop preview with a free rent/buy analysis thrown in.
536 Henry st and 555 Henry st in brooklyn appear to be owned and renovated by the same developer. Very similar layouts at both buildings.
A unit at 536 Henry #2 is currently on the market for $725,000, post-chop
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/166075-condo-536-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

At 555 Henry street, #2 was taken off the market after being listed at $839,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/106093-condo-555-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

Now, 555 Henry has re-appeared as a rental unit for $3,200 a month!!!
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/446699-condo-555-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

I said on the prime brooklyn thread that I love this location, but $3,200/month is in the stratosphere for a decently sized 2BR in the area.

BUT, since the owner is willing to accept $3,200/month, what does that imply for the price of both buildings?
At 12x annual rent, $3,200 would imply a sales price of only $460,800.
At 15x, you're looking at $576,000.
To get to the current ask of $725,000 at 536 Henry you are paying 18.8x annual rent.

I would be surprised if they could rent that place out for $2800

150 Bond must be killing the current owner.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/212328-house-150-bond-street-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

Paid $1.725M in September 2007. Started a gut reno, then put it on the market at $2.5M seven months later. After six price chops, it's barely above the price they paid, and that doesn't include the money put into it. Ouch.

they didnt put any money into it. i thought it was gutted and the same they bought it as. no?

Building permits were filed after September 2007, so I assume not.

the location on the bond street house is fabulous, pretty much perfect. i'd rip out the garages and the garage/bedroom and put in a swimming pool, have a retractable glass roof down the middle of the deck, so you can open it up in the summer and have it as an indoor pool in the winter.

I kinda hate to do it, but here's my beloved 96 Schermerhorn Street:

MARKET DATA
6 active sales listings: $502 per ft² (avg)
27 previous sales listings: $601 per ft² (avg)

That's LISTING prices, not closed units!!

happyrenter, I really disagree with the location quality on 150 Bond. You're a block away from some major projects!

Here's some more anticipatory movement.
44 Prospect Park West #D7 in contract with a list price of $699,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/359874-coop-44-prospect-park-west-park-slope-brooklyn

44 Prospect Park West #?? has the same layout and asking price of $749,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/358977-coop-44-prospect-park-west-park-slope-brooklyn
This one claims to be 1,100sqft which works out to $680psf.

Assuming same sqft for both apartments and sale at current listing price, #D7 went out for $635psf

#B7 (same layout) sold in October 2006 for $662,500, or $602psf assuming same sqft.

Should be interesting to see how much #D7 sold for. It will be especially interesting if it sold today for more than the 2006 price.

bjw,

are we back onto the tired old topics of everyone being afraid to live near anyone poor? that bond street location is fantastic, close to all subways, great restaurants, BAM, within a long stroll of the park....it's a great location.

happyrenter, what's with the snark? It's not about being "afraid to live near anyone poor," it's about property value, and I think you'll be hard pressed to demonstrate that proximity to public housing is a boon for those. The location is otherwise pretty good, for the reasons you list, but take it easy on the accusations, por favor.

bjw,
not accusing you of anything. the fact is virtually everywhere in prime brooklyn outside of brooklyn heights, parts of cobble hill, and park slope is going to be somewhat near some public housing. this is true in much of manhattan as well--say, prime chelsea, which has extensive public housing projects. unless i have the location confused, this is smack dab in the middle of the boerum hill historic district, close to atlantic, close to smith street, on a prime boerum hill block. to get overly sensitive about some housing projects in the area seems, well...i want to avoid accusations :).

happyrenter, that's cute, but you are the one who injected the word "afraid" into the conversation, and now "overly sensitive" as well. That's ridiculous. Unless you're looking to buy the home you plan on dying in, you do care about resale value, and I'll repeat, housing projects do not help in that department. This is a major project that takes up several blocks - it is significant. I don't know if you've walked that area at night, but it is unfortunately not the safest feeling area, and many, many buyers have that factor near the top of their list. That's not being "overly sensitive" - that's being smart and deliberate in your buying decision. Certainly there are buyers who would be fine with living there, but you have to realize many aren't and that's going to affect value and appreciation, since those buildings aren't going anywhere.

I also disagree with the assessment that "virtually everywhere in prime Brooklyn" is going to be somewhat near public housing. You listed 3 rather significant neighborhoods already (and there aren't many, so I don't know how that qualifies as virtually everywhere to being with), but there are no projects I know of in Carroll Gardens, Northside Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and Prospect Heights. In fact, the only major projects in "prime" Brooklyn are the ones in Boerum Hill!

bjw,

the only takeaway from that is that you think the entire neighborhood of boerum hill is a problem then. if you feel that way, then by all means don't buy there. but i think you're hard pressed to convince me that boerum hill is not considered a nice brooklyn neighborhood. of course i agree that all factors should be considered when buying a home, and it may be true (although from what little i know of the data i tend to doubt it) that boerum hill as a whole is held back in terms of price appreciation relative to its neighbors. but those projects are every bit as close to parts of caroll gardens and even much of cobble hill as they are to boerum hill. there are also projects in or around red hook (obviously) carroll gardens, ft. greene, and williamsburg. there aren't any that i know of around prospect park, that's true, but aside from park slope i don't consider any of those neighborhoods nearly as desirable as ft. greene.

i think you'd be better served by looking at the crime statistics for the area rather than asserting an 'unsafe feeling.'

finally, it's sort of a cop-out to say 'because other people don't like to live near x, i can't live there, because i won't be able to sell as easily.' that's fine when talking about living in an actual high crime area (as opposed to an area that supposedly feels unsafe, whatever that means), or living on a noisy intersection, or many other factors. but just because some other people don't like living near, oh...hmmm....black people (which a number of streeteasy posted have openly stated), or poor people, or immigrants, or soup kitchens (that was a charming discussion the other day) doesn't mean that it's ok to go along with their prejudice. i'm not trying to accuse you of anything personally--you may feel that boerum hill is legitimately dangerous, in which by all means that's a good reason to stay away. so i'm not talking about you, but about this general issue.

buying with an eye to other people's concerns is one thing, but buying with an eye toward their prejudices is another.

sorry, that should read "nearly as desirable as boerum hill." i have the flu, bear with me.

happyrenter, whoa, hold on a second. I never claimed that "the entire neighborhood of Boerum Hill is a problem." That's just very, very wrong. We are talking about 150 Bond St, which is LITERALLY a hop, skip, and jump away from the Gowanus complex, which takes up 4 entire blocks between Hoyt and Bond, not to mention the Wyckoff and Warren houses a block east. As anyone who lives in NYC knows, things can change very quickly within a few blocks, and once you got a bit further away from this area, that's really prime Boerum Hill, which is without a doubt, lovely. Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens are indeed even further away. Where are the projects in CG? I don't know of any. Same for Northside Williamsburg (which I consider prime, at least based on ppsf, though I'm biased).

Crime stats are no good here, as they're reported by precinct, and not only is Boerum Hill kind of split between 2 precincts, but you've also got other, quite distinct neighborhoods in those precincts (Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Red Hook, Downtown, etc). I don't know how much time you've spent in the area, but I know it well and know people who actually live nearby - there is a palpable difference once you cross Hoyt from the west in this section.

Your rant about black people, poor people, immigrants, and soup kitchens is way off base, because I have never mentioned any of these terms. I know you said you're not trying to accuse me of anything, but if you have a problem with others' reference to them, or prejudices, respond to them, but that has nothing to do with my argument here. I really don't understand why you brought it up.

bjw,

i brought it up because your argument was that the area "feels unsafe" rather than that it "is unsafe." what does it mean for something to feel unsafe without being unsafe? the house on bond street is not surrounded by those projects, it is on a beautiful landmarked street in a historic district. is the problem that it is unsafe, or that, for some nebulous reason it feels unsafe to you or to others? that's the question.

i certainly know this area very well. boerum hill is on of my favorite neighborhoods in the city.

happyrenter, yikes, just yikes. I say "feels unsafe" and that elicits thoughts about black people, poor people, immigrants, and soup kitchens? That comment notwithstanding, I think you're just a bit too cavalier about dismissing "feels unsafe" as not really "unsafe." The house on Bond St is less than 300 feet from the projects. That's been my point all along - most of Boerum Hill is not THAT close, but anyone buying 150 HAS to be aware of their neighbors. I have friends on Warren St, about the same distance from there and while they're fine, they have seen and experienced more suspect behavior and you know, actual crime, than I care to live around and consequently warn everyone to be a bit more careful if walking around there at night. If you think that's trivial, fine, but I dare say most people do not.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/318252-coop-28-pierrepont-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn
$849K

This is purely anecdotal evidence, but if you read the Police Blotter in the local newspaper (The Brooklyn Paper), you WILL see there is more crime surrounding the projects. They typically give the address of the crime (although, many of them are simply things like "stolen from car" type of stuff). Personally, I walk by the projects at night without much fanfare, but there's usually some people yelling about [whatever] nearby... so, regardless the safety factor, it IS definitely louder than most the the neighborhood.

bjw,

are you kidding me? you said it 'feels unsafe' because it is near projects. and why would that feel unsafe? not because of the people who live in the projects, ie. poor people? come off it. please explain what makes it 'feel unsafe' then.

as i said before, if it actually is unsafe--which is what you are now saying--then of course that's something very different from feels unsafe.

Can anyone tell me what this sponsor unit sold for? I've heard that sponsor units are often very negotiable on price, so I'm curious.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/361371-coop-61-pierrepont-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

#84, presumably 5 floors higher and already renovated, sold for $987k in May '08. Otherwise it's approximately the same layout, so I wonder if the buyers of #34 negotiated a big discount.

Yes. http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2009011301112001

happyrenter, I really don't get where you're coming from. I can see why project housing would make you think of poor people, but I never said a thing about black people, immigrants, or soup kitchens. If you're going to argue semantics (feels unsafe vs is unsafe) on this board, I'm sorry the phrase didn't come out to your liking. Furthermore, it's not poor people that make it unsafe, it's the crime. Frankly, I haven't any idea if it's merely people living there or if it's attracting others (I would guess some of both, but again, I have no real basis for that). Have you ever noticed the police presence in the area? Why do you think they're there? Anyway, I didn't expect my comment to elicit that kind of a response - I'm sorry it's taken up so much of this thread.

bjw, if you think the difference between 'feels unsafe' and 'is unsafe' is semantic, then i really don't know what to say. kind of like the difference between "i'm afraid i might have cancer" and "i have cancer." clearly semantic. anyway, time to move on.

happyrenter, this is what I originally posted:
"but it is unfortunately not the safest feeling area"
I apologize for including the word "feeling" in there, as apparently that just spun everything I said 180 degrees for you. This is a message board, not a Dostoyevsky seminar.

West81st - thank you. If I'm reading the record correctly, the "Doc Amount" (730000) is the closing price? (Sorry - these records are very confusing.) Very interesting if the apartment went for that much.

evnyc: Yes, that's correct. Just looking at the numbers, it seems the sponsor may have built much of the recent drop into the asking price; but you'll have to judge that based on comps and relative condition.

so we are back to the 'semantic' difference between crime and the warranted or unwarranted fear of crime? i didn't know Dostoyevsky was involved. :).

ev, it all comes down to the conditions of the two units.

I remember some idiot girl from like Kansas yelling at me about how Giuliani stunk because, while crime had gone down by like 25%, it didn't "feel" like things were safer... so it didn't count.

of course it didn't feel safer to a girl from kansas. in kansas there are no black and brown people.

Is there any chance you could accelerate the process of moving on, happyrenter? Alternatively, perhaps start a new thread and drone on endlessly there instead.

Yes, happyrenter - Dostoyevsky wrote a nice little novel about this very thing! Look, there is crime in this area (read broadwayron's post if you think I'm alone in thinking this), but if you think this is a "perfect location," that's totally cool with me.

bjw2103 and happyrenter. Your respective points have been made, and I agree with mjmsmith -- you're violating the sanctity of an IFYCDMMWC thread with a personal battle that has no end. If you really need to determine who should have the last word on this, pls take it to the on-line equivalent of 'outside.' ;)

Thanks JKB, I agree. To get this thread back on course:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/160-columbia-heights-brooklyn

Really unclear if 4GH is the same actual unit as 4G (both are 2/2). Anyone know anything about this building? 4G closed for $895k in 2007 and 4GH last month for $995k. I would guess they tacked on a studio (that's what H line seems to be) so this may be a sign of prices coming down in a pretty top section of the Heights. I know the view from the roof is fantastic.

bjw2103: The maintenance only appears to have gone up by $200. Looks more like inflation/tax increases than physical expansion. Hard to tell.

Just to be a good message-board citizen, here's a fun one at the lower end:

www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/211838-coop-150-joralemon-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

11/28/2007 Previous sale closed for $440,000
04/02/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $540,000
05/08/2008 Price decreased to $510,000
05/28/2008 Price decreased to $499,000
09/03/2008 Price decreased to $475,000
09/18/2008 Price decreased to $450,000
10/24/2008 Price decreased to $440,000

It's its own comp, having sold in October 2008 at the price it's now asking in January 2009. The outsized maintenance at this building (150 Joralemon in Brooklyn Heights) probably explains a good deal of the problem for sellers here. They're in a pickle - nothing about this building justifies the high maintenance (no doorman, not-great amenities, although maintenance is 60%-ish deductible) -- there are two other 2 BRs available in this building, too, both lower floors but HIGHER asking prices:

www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/345770-coop-150-joralemon-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/168722-coop-150-joralemon-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

Should be noted that all three have been on the market for a looooooong time -- 134, 288 and 358 days.

Location of this building is great, but I don't see these places moving anytime soon without serious willingness to negotiate. Places like this were selling at right around $400,000 in late 2006/early 2007. I'd bet the sellers won't get even $400K now.

Oh, most recent comps were in September 2008: similar places went for $522,000 and $525,000. I'd mark that as the peak-peak for 2 BRs in this building.

It's funny about 150 Joralemon - as you say, no doorman, high maintenance - but it's a great location and a nicer building than the prices suggest. Classic Brooklyn Heights dilemma. See also my post above about 96 Schermerhorn...

jkb,

i think that could go under the neighborly competition thread as well, no? i agree, a ways to fall.

Here's the 96 Schermerhorn link...
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/96-schermerhorn-street-brooklyn

I think the split of the thread into 10 separate ones, while well intentioned, was not well thought out.

If these things stay active, they're going to take up most of the board. They seem to be half the visible posts.

nyc10022: After a few hiccups the first day or two, the neighborhood-specific threads seem to be working prety well. There are four comp threads on Page 1 of the board (20% of the page): Downtown, Brooklyn, UWS and UES. The others have gone quiet, and don't figure to get much activity if the original IYCDMMWC is any indication.

Sorry if we've crowded out the latest news from Chicago, Detroit and Southern California, or updates on Tim Geithner's nanny.

West81st, totally agree. I was a bit overzealous with the breakouts, but as I said, posters will take care of the threads and we should go with the ones that seem to be working. And if it drowns out the Chicago talk, even better! Thanks for spearheading the idea!

tina24hour, those are pretty stunning prices at 96 Schermerhorn! That is a loud intersection at Boerum Pl obviously, but how is the building?

4 is much more "doable" than 10.

Good to crowd out chicago... but don't miss the threads on getting deposits back, the 21% drop in manhattan office rents, the manhattan brokerage closings, julia's one bedroom thread, etc.

bjw2103 - I love 96 Schermerhorn. It's a well-managed building, great lobby, amazing high ceilings, good light, nice roof deck. Super quiet. Pet friendly. Ridiculously close to transportation. Really agreeable about renovations.
Cons:
No w/d allowed in the units, but there's a great 2nd floor air-conditioned laundry.
Maintenance is high, if stable (although there was a big assessment last year, but most owners paid it in full).
Some of the apartments have not been touched since the eighties, when the building was converted.

But worth a go - check it out!

This isn't a real comp per se, but it's a whopping discount off listing if the filing is correct:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/150-java-street-brooklyn

6B listed at $729k, sold for $450k. Something does seem a little off here, especially with the dates, but if this is accurate, that's 38%! I don't know about the building, but that's a very good Greenpoint location.

Here's a good one.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/375316-condo-87-smith-street-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn
87 Smith street, 2br with a pretty big terrace/private roof deck.

06/13/2008 Previously listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran for $1,040,000
06/17/2008 Corcoran listing unavailable at $1,040,000
01/15/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $765,000
01/23/2009 Corcoran listing entered contract

I should have scrolled down, it sold for $720,000. The other sales on the 12th floor are also listed.

12/30/2008 #12C $745,000 -6.8% $799,000
12/22/2008 #12F $720,000 -5.9% $765,000
12/19/2008 #12G $730,000 -8.6% $799,000

Wow: http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/02/toll_even_more.php

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/140353-condo-4-north-5th-street-williamsburg-brooklyn
10/23/2007 Listed in StreetEasy by Halstead Property at $2,019,990
02/06/2009 Price decreased to $1,274,990

wowzuh

Featured on brownstoner today, a "2br" @
147 South Oxford Street #3c - http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/351514-coop-147-south-oxford-street-fort-greene-brooklyn
09/25/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $525,000
11/11/2008 Brown Harris Stevens listing entered contract
01/22/2009 Sale closed for $487,000

I hate the layout of this place and I would hardly call anything south of Greene Ave in "Fort Greene".

Wake me up when you can get a real 2br at this price between DeKalb and Lafayette.

Prospect park price confusion Thursday.

2BR at 90 8th Ave #4C
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/358657-coop-90-eighth-avenue-park-slope-brooklyn
Asking price is $649,000

The same apartment (same pictures in both links) is also being offered for rent at $3,000/month, after being listed in December for $3,200.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/442503-coop-90-eighth-avenue-park-slope-brooklyn

At a 5% mortgage rate for 30yrs, $3,000 a month is $311,520 of borrowing. Gross up to account for 20% down and the breakeven rent/buy on this place is approximately $390,000.

Looks like this one has a long way to fall.

^ that $311,520 = $3000/month includes the $1,182 of maintenance expenses also.

Pretty astounding sales price:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/343947-townhouse-147-st-james-place-clinton-hill-brooklyn

01/01/2009 $1,930,000 Sold
12/15/2008 $1,950,000 Listed
01/08/2008 $995,000 Sold

They did a gut reno, but got nearly twice what they paid for it in 12 months time! Impressive. This is Clinton Hill landmarked block, but still.

Delusional seller of the day:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/386011-rental-262-bond-st-cobble-hill-brooklyn

Asking $1.6M, $300k more than the 2007 sale price. The developer did a really nice conversion, but these apartments are on a dumpy block of Bond St literally two doors from the Gowanus Houses.

.....LOL!!!!

pull up a google street view of that block if you aren't familiar with it. It is a barren treeless wasteland of warehouses/garages 1 block from the projects on one side and one block from the gowanus canal on the other.

On the upside, it should be easy to find parking on the street on that block.

This might properly be placed in the 'price choppers' thread, but I thought it would have more relevance to a Brooklyn-focused crowd. Did anyone else see this 2 BR closing at 588 Henry in Carroll Gardens?

10/09/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $595,000
10/31/2008 Price decreased to $569,000
11/21/2008 Price decreased to $475,000
01/11/2009 Brown Harris Stevens listing entered contract
02/13/2009 Sale closed for $410,000

www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/356464-coop-588-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

A 31% reduction off-ask in three months (or $185,000)! There are many reasons why this is not a 'prime' Carroll Gardens apartment (the apartment's not swank or big, the location's out of the way), but still ... you could say the same about many of the condos they've built down in this area that are F-train dependent.

Anyone have a guess (or an explanation) as to why this closed so low?

As a comp, I offer 161 President, which sold for $475,000 in a location with virtually all the same benefits and drawbacks:

www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/348497-coop-161-president-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

I saw this place and it's in a great little co-op, but it needed a top-to-bottom renovation - new floors, kitchen, bathroom, windows, you name it. The layout also isn't great - you have to walk through every other room in the house to get to the MBR.

Are these just cases of each transaction being completely unique? Any other theories?

I was watching both of those properties and am shocked that the President St. property went for that much. They don't even show the interior, and the garden is a shambles. Someone must have walked in and had a vision of exactly what they wanted from the space.

"Anyone have a guess (or an explanation) as to why this closed so low?"
I remember 588 Henry... aside from the fact it's like a 1BR where they added a wall to make it a 2BR (see the floor plan), the seller started a thread on Brownstoner (which I can no longer find); I think her husband moved and left her to sell the place. I believe they needed and expected a quick sale, but the broker priced it higher than where they thought was realistic. I'm guessing that paying for 2 places got old after a while, so they sold it for what they could get.

Thanks broadwayron. I actually vaguely recall that thread, too, but I hadn't connected it to this place. And you're right about the bedroom -- that certainly explains why the floorplan didn't provide any dimensions.

So this does create a type of comp -- appears to be an example of a "must-sell" putting downward pressure on prices for everyone else.

I've been looking Park Slope/Ditmas Park/Propect Heights. May add some of the other areas in the next couple of weeks.

Must say, somewhat surprised at this listing:

81 St. mark place listed at $699k
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/394326-condo-81-st-marks-place-park-slope-brooklyn --

Sold in May 2006 for $650k
http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2006052501563001

There are number of others I have seen priced at near their 2005 or 2004 sales numbers.

Here's another one:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/386544-condo-484-8th-street-park-slope-brooklyn

Priced at $599k, buyers paid 625k in August 2006 (per acris). Sellers have left, the agent did a really nice job of staging the apartment. Will be interesting to see how low this one goes (owners have a $499k mortgage).

I would pay more for 484 8th st than 81 st marks. The floorplan at 81 st marks is terrible, with the kitchen lining the walls of the livingroom. Who in their right mind would pay $699k to live in an apartment that cramped and awkward, and on 4th avenue to top it off!!!