open houses on UES

Bender,

I would not live on that street: it's a cross town street & fire engines frequently use it (fire house is on 85th bet Lex & 3rd). Also, I've dealt w/ this broker & do not like her.

You wonder if they think they will always found a fool, even with today's issues and drops in prices.. or if they are just downright dull.. i would say the value is in the vicinity of 1.5 and i wish them good luck

dwell, that's a great point! I once lived on E 36st and when I looked at the apt, the broker failed to mention all the truck traffic into the Midtown Tunnel at 6am. Shocking, right?

I can appreciate the traffic comments -- but i cannot imagine, dwell, that anybody would make an ecomomic decision to invest in a home based on a broker. Like them or not-- not sensibly part of any equation.

Bender,

On the eastside, the entrance to the 86th st thoroughfare is on 85th st (although the crosstown bus goes up to 86 st, turns on 5th ave & goes down to 85th to cross the park). At rush hrs, there is almost constant traffic at the corner of 85th & Madison. I like the area, just would stay away from 85th, partic that corner.

I agree as pushy as brokers may be if someone is so misinformed as to wholely trust a broker at their word only, then shame on them. Buyer beware. It's on the buyer to educate themselves.

Right, buyers must do due diligence. Walking the area in day time, rush hr, night, wkends, etc. Also a good idea to google the address & see what pops up.

That price is absurd -- totally agree. Nice thing going for it is relatively low common charges for an apartment that size. But living room is not large (its ok) and dining area is small. Based on floorplan doesn't look that large of an apartment. Also, are two of the bathrooms in the master bedroom (understanding that one can be accesses from the entrance to the bedroom)?

As far as location, I'd take it, even with some traffic. Apartment is also on 14th floor so it shouldn't be that bad. Building looks nice but I'm not familiar with it.

Aparment has already been on the market for 3+ months, and they've already chopped 150k off, so clearly not getting much interest. For 1.5M its probably a decent deal given location and common charges. I'd take it for 1.2M or 1.3M in a heartbeat, but they are probably another several months away from being willing to accept that kind of offer.

I cannot believe that people who could pay 1.5m for an apartment post on streeteasy...maybe i'm nuts but I get the feeling I'm the only poster who is honest and doesn't play the million $ apartment. Is anyone on this board earning $400k+

Don't understand your post Julia. Any family that wants to live in NYC needs to be willing to pay 1M+ for a 2br/2bth. People like that aren't rich, just well-to-do. Can make 200k+ as a lawyer or doctor in NYC, save for a few years, and afford a 1M+ apartment. And that doesn't count a working spouse. You seem to indicate that anyway that can afford such an apartment is rich and would not bother posting on streeteasy, but reality is that living here is expensive and lots of people aren't rich who chose to do so.

Wow Julia,
Reverse snobbery. Different people at different price points.

UES_buyer: 2br/2bt in solidly affluent areas of UES were selling for 600K in 2003-2004, so I just don't understand why on earth you assume that anyone with a family who wants to live in NYC (in a good school area and etc.) would have to pay 1M+. Also, people with family incomes over 300K are like 2.5% of the population of this country, for your info, so that qualifies as a little more than just "well-off", and that's the kind of income that you need to carry a mortgage on a 1M+ apt.

Even on UES, you have to live near constant traffic and noise.

NYC just doesn't have that many nice areas to live in.

making $200k before taxes and able to afford $1m apartment plus high maintenance and standard of living in manhattan...I don't think so...Many people living in manhattan aren't rich (including myself). I'm just wondering if the people posting on streeteasy are dreaming and not living in reality. Maybe I should start looking for a job and stop posting.

I know I sound obsessed with traffic, but with the Lucinda (at Lex & 85th st) coming on board, plus the already high cross town traffic, I would not want to live on this corner. The Lucinda's entrance is on 85th & 85th is a west bound st. & I assume many Lucinda buyers will have vehicles (which they will most likely double park on 85th, loading/unloading). Then, there's the new bld on 86th & 3rd, bringing more people & car owners into the area, everyone squeezing down 85th, going west.

Many who live in this neighborhood, me included, foresee traffic congestion & car exhaust.

I agree dwell. That area is a terrible place to live. No wonder the brompton and lucida are struggling.

Julia, to answer your question 'yes.' And the comp for this apt is its next door neighbor which sold in December. It sold at a very high price. Prob wouldn't get it now.Its a two bedroom with a large terrace. The people who own this three bedroom apt are stuck in 2006/2007.

"making $200k before taxes and able to afford $1m apartment plus high maintenance and standard of living in manhattan..."

-- You took the bottom of my scale, added a "high" maintenance and SOL. Point is that with an income above 200k you can afford to buy a 1M apartment, would obviously need to run numbers but can find buildings, especially on UES, with low common charges.

"2br/2bt in solidly affluent areas of UES were selling for 600K in 2003-2004"

-- Ok, but was 5 years ago. Prices may well fall there again, but reality is that tons of people bought in the last 5 years and paid 1M or more for those apartments. And those people were not rich. Just able to carry monthly cost and want to live in NYC.

"Also, people with family incomes over 300K are like 2.5% of the population of this country, for your info, so that qualifies as a little more than just "well-off","

-- Not talking about the country, talking about NYC. I don't know the answer, but would be curious to know the % of people in NYC making more than 300k. In NYC I consider that well-off, not wealthy or rich. Outside of NY area obviously diff story.

UES_Buyer, while I generally tend to agree with you...

1. I don't mean to single you out, but a $200k/year job in NYC won't get you a $1M+ apt, particularly in this climate; and

2. Also, I just saw a new conversion, a 1,100 SF 1.5 bedromm (i.e., one bedroom plus another w/o a window) w/ 2 baths for $827k in a stable FiDi development (85% sold)--the location, to me, was much more desirable than 35 E 85th. So, there are other options.

taxes in new york are much higher than most of the states where earning $200k would be great. Fed, State, City taxes would not allow you to purchse a $1m apartment, plus buy food!

vanderveen: "1. I don't mean to single you out, but a $200k/year job in NYC won't get you a $1M+ apt, particularly in this climate; and"

Why not? No one is saying that someone who makes $200k can purchase a home right off the bat. You'd have to save for a few years. But you can definitely put aside enough over 5-10 years to afford a $1m apartment.

Also--what "climate" do you refer to as impacting this analysis?

roofy: not a terrible area, just a bad corner & a street not to my liking. Area's great.

Slope11217: Are those your typical rhetorical questions/sarcasm (e.g., Your (in)famous question, "Why would anyone pay more than $50k for a 2BR?"), or do you really want an answer?

Hint: Use a mortgage calclator and see how much one can afford, keeping in mind at least 1/3 of your income would be gone after taxes. About the "climate," have you dealt w/ mortgage companies lately? An annual income of $200k won't by a long shot qualify most Americans for a $800k loan (assuming a $1M property w/ 10% down--or even 20% down)--particuarly if the bldg is less than 100% solid financially.

"with an income above 200k you can afford to buy a 1M apartment"

No. You can't. Massage the numbers all you want, but you can barely afford a $500k home on that salary.

evnyc: Thank you. At least someone on this board knows what s/he is talking about.

You people are all crazy - 85th and Madison is a bad location? You're worried about traffic from people unloading their cars at the Brompton and Lucida? To do what - cruise across town to park their cars? Play their loud, thumping music? The UES may not be your cup of tea, and that's fine, but to say that 85th and Madison is a bad location for someone who likes the UES is ludicrous.

printer, we are NOT rufus, so I don't think it's a "bad location" at all. It is a good location, and I'd live there if I can, within my means. But it isn't an excellent location for the reasons some of us cited.

Thus, it's great for what it is, but it is less than what a $1,500/SF price tag may imply.

239 E79th Apt 7P

Ignore the merits (or lack thereof) of the apartment. It is a 2b/2b apt that is family friendly. It is asking 999k with 1400 per month in maintenance.

Income of $200,000 with after tax income of approx $133,000 gives you a little over $11,110 per month in spending money. Total monthly cost of the apartment, per info below, is under $6k, leaving you with $5,222.66 for food, utilities, buying stuff, living, etc. Is it tough, sure it is. Now, obviously you this hypothetical person needs to save for a while before he/she can make a down payment. But also these numbers do not include about $1,400 per month in tax savings. Just saying its possible.

Asking price = $999,999
Down Payment = $249,750
Mortgage Amount = $749,250
Rate = 6%
Monthly Mort Payment = $4,492
Total Monthly Costs = $5,894

No, UES_Buyer, that computation is unrealistic (also 25% down on a $200k income?) and perhaps too "American" (i.e., not saving AT ALL).

There is a problem when you are spending more than 50% of your income on housing. Also, even if you are comfortable NOT saving at all, based on my personal knowledge, you will NOT be approved for such a mortgage.

UES Buyer - you are crazy to think a family with 200k of pre-tax income can afford a 749k mortgage in NYC. The cost of living (aside from housing) is very expensive when you consider nursery/private schools, higher food costs, etc. Frankly the co-op boards wouldn't even approve someone at these numbers. A 200k income should allow someone to purchase an apt for 500-700k max. People stretching and buying more than they could afford is what got us into this real estate mess in the first place.

there is also no guarantee you will be able to keep your 200k job, or that your company will not ask you to take a pay cut.

such apts used to be affordable because you could buy them at 10% down on a teaser rate and refi in 1-2 yrs. that's not happening any more nor is it likely to come back for a while.

UES, I think the assumption of after tax income is high, it would be closer to $115k, which leaves less per month. In addition, making $200k, assuming very aggressive savings, it would take a person 6 years to save for the apartment ($250k down, plus closing costs, moving, etc.). Also, with this size of loan, isn't the rate closer to 7.5%?

Vanderveen - exactly. In the scenario that UESBuyer suggests, the buyers are not saving anything at all for retirement, or in case they get laid off. The $200k salaried buyer is looking at apartments that will cost $3-4k a month in total carrying costs - and that is pushing it, in my humble estimation. Even if you could scrounge up the down payment from your parent(s), you'd never make it past a halfway competent board.

Dwell, I agree completely. And I just hate it when I ask about noise and the broker responds, "Oh, but these are City Windows. Practically soundproof." Of course, airens and horns permeate the thickest windows, but more importantlay: why is it assumed that windows are not for opening? I won't stay a few nights in most Ritz Carlton hotels because they are sealed, so why would I buy an apartment that's a prison?

Oops -- I meant sirens. Sorry

Thanks, Riley. I also like to open windows, can't stand sealed ones.
Yes, brokers lie & I particularly dislike Claire.

Just adding my voice to the chorus - affording $1MM apartment on $200K compensation is either impossible or very stupid. You'd have to stop putting anything into 401K, saving for college, going out to eat, vacations, etc.

And I think Boss77 is being much too charitable with his possibility to save enough for downpayment and closing costs in 6 years, unless you're living somewhere rent-free and payment-free for all of that time.

Curious to know what level of income you think you need in order to afford an apartment between 1M and 1.2M.

We bought an $800K condo with $800/month carrying charges on $275K income (good interest rate, although I can't recall exactly what it was), which was tight (one kid in private school, tuition around $25K at the time), and became impossible after post-9/11 bonus reduction of $50K (to $225K). We were certainly not living the high life, no expensive shoes, suits bought at discount stores, eating in, etc.

Will never again have mortgage that is more than twice income (less as interest rates and/or monthly charges go up). Even though now I could probably afford it, won't do it.