no brokers please

Yeah, it sounds like a sales pitch

it really does. This Manhattan slowdown will bring out innovations, new ideas, new websites, new blogs, all in an effort to change the landscape, grab market share, or promote business. Lets not forget this is a commission based service industry.

I just dont see what this site brings to the table outside of having your listing on another venue. Is their marketing reach greater than that of NY Times? Do they have relationships with other sites that they feed your property too? Do they have masses of buyers looking at their site? It just seems to be another idea, which is fine, for sellers to promote their property and using the hatred of brokers as their main sales pitch. NO BROKERS PLEASE! That should work great with the anti-broker crowd of sellers out there.

Not that I blame them, brokers have a bad rep and from my experiences with co-workers over the past 4 years, rightfully so. Sometimes I hate this business. But in my opinion, the best model would be to offer quality content, get the buyer audience, and THEN launch a FSBO product where the website is widely known, highly trafficked, sticky, and based on content. Just starting a site and trying to brand it from advertising without any sticky content to me seems like an uphill model. But I wish them the best of luck and its always nice to have another site to list your property!

hey, EVERYTHING is a sales pitch. trying to get my kids to eat dinner each night is a sales pitch, getting away for the weekend with the boys takes a sales pitch, etc., etc. seems you can't be enthusiastic these days without someone thinking you are trying to sell them something.

yet in this case it's free - for a month.

hey if its free its worth it, why not! Im just disgareeing with the business model, thats all. How many FSBOs are out there? Are sellers going o leave full service and go here instead? Again, what are they offering outside of another site to promote your property?

Lets keep the conversation constructive, because its an interesting one. I truly deep down think this industry is about to change, with this slowdown. I think there will be very interesting models coming out to better serve the consumers, I just dont think this is it. Its ok I say this right?

I don't get what's special about this either. Would be nice if they have some success stories like how many sales of their listings have been credited with their website, or the # of daily hits to their website, etc.

The room for websites FSBO is crowded and this one isn't anything special or unique.

"I just dont see what this site brings to the table outside of having your listing on another venue. Is their marketing reach greater than that of NY Times? Do they have relationships with other sites that they feed your property too? Do they have masses of buyers looking at their site?"

digs, you could ask the same question about most listing agents.

"Again, what are they offering outside of another site to promote your property?"

They are offering a flat fee consulting service to answer questions throughout the process. Marketing aside, how is that different than your discussions about a flat fee consulting model? The value of the service is knowledge the marketing is a throw in.

the site is about 10 days old so i am not sure about any sales yet. i only know the traffic that it brings me personally. i can try to find out some answers for you Urban.

i know you have posted on here about a consultant-type model in the past and asked everyone's opinions on that. at the very least i have gotten enough info from the guys running this site (through their consultation) to know more about selling a property than half the brokers i have spoken to. it has given me a much clearer head to see through the bullshit they try to spin when they contact me or come to my open house. i am not a "broker hater" but i know how they can be and i am much better armed now. (btw - i feel that you are a different category of broker. just the feeling i get.) that knowledge alone has been invaluable. and for a $200 monthly consultancy fee alone i think it is worth. they offer other services for a price (helping your buyer's complete the co-op package, etc.) that seem worthwhile as well. this is an early experiment for me so i can't give you the full picture yet.

I think if Streeteasy ends up launching a FSBO product, they took the proper path, built a user base, offer quality content, has a huge buyer audience, and will have a high barrier to entry for sites like NO BROKERS PLEASE to compete.

Thats my point

I have to run, but will be back later to continue this. Good stuff. I thought this was more of a third party site for FSBOs to get more exposure, and not a consult model.

juiceman you beat me to the punch (faster typer, i guess) but you are correct. get that man a McCallum 20 year!
the consultancy part has been the gold mine. stuff that brokers might try to hide from me as an FSBO is now in my knowledge pool.
it has been so important to me that i am willing to get on here (and anywhere) to trumpet my feelings about it even though i am under no obligation to. if there is one other FSBO like me who can get the support that i have gotten then there is one more educated seller who won't be taken advantage of.

I am a (potential) buyer, and have visited the NBP site a few times... but I have to be honest, I am not entirely sure how to proceed with an FBSO bid. I am concerned that if I offer what I think is fair in this market, there is not enough critical distance between the seller and the buyer.

that is a fair comment but remember, knowledge is king. do your homework and find out how to create that critical distance yourself. it is false to believe that there is critical distance when you have a broker involved - the only thing you have done is bring in another person who has a completely different set of incentives than the buyer and seller (thank you Steven Levitt!)

when the student is ready the teacher appears:
just so happens that as i started my FSBO a friend gave me the book "Freakonomics" to read. It is basically economic theory (all based on data) applied to situations you would never think of. for example...

CHAPTER 2: HOW IS THE KU KLUX KLAN LIKE A GROUP OF REAL ESTATE AGENTS?

I would suggest everyone read at least the introduction of the book and that chapter. Give you a little more insight into why a real estate agent more likely wants you to sell for less. check it out.

Here's my FIZBO Model (A work in progress) This is from an e mail I sent to a prospective client-

I will get right to the point if you’re interested we can sit down and talk . I will act as your listing broker and get your apartment into the database of listings NYC brokers go to when searching for an apartment for a buyer. We list the apartment as paying a 2.5% commission to buyers broker- every broker in the city will of course except this, perhaps during a negotiation this can be lowered as well once we are on “the dance floor” so to speak.

This is still a work in progress but I believe this is a cost effective way to get the best of both worlds; full cooperation from the brokerage community at a deep discounted commission scale.
Here’s the “menu”:

1) Listing will be entered into shared broker database, all brokers can now access your property just as if you signed an exclusive with Elliman at 6%.
2) If you sell it on your own you owe no one anything.
3) You pay a flat $100 dollars per month(3 month min.) to me and your property will be listed on my site as well.
4) Your open houses will be listed on OLR, StreetEasy etc..
5) I will e blast out the listing to all contacts in my database 2 times a month(free)
6) I can also send out an e blast to over 8,000 brokers to announce a new listing, $75
7) Take high quality photos-optional of course, $100
8) Sign up for 6 months and also get one online NYT’s ad included.
9) Unlimited support via email from me and don’t mind a few phone calls with questions.
10) I will run your open house for $50 dollars per hour/2 hour min. I have found most buyers prefer not to have the owner present during an open house, just a suggestion.



You really have nothing to lose(well other than $300 dollars ;), all you will have to sign is an agreement that if a co-operating broker brings you a buyer that you come to terms with, that broker will be entitled to a 2.5% commission at closing. You will be able to cancel this agreement with written notice at anytime.

More or less what I have outlined above is exactly what Elliman or Corcoran would do for 6%. I Charge fixed upfront prices for my services which is considerably less than you would pay a listing broker.

Have I missed anything? Please give some feedback I would love to know your thoughts or hear suggestions. This is the first time something like this is being offered to Manhattan sellers and I will be fine tuning it as we go along. I have sold tens of millions of dollars of real estate in this city and have over 17 years experience-this is not some hare-brained scheme to extort money from sellers looking to avoid paying a broker.

I have found over the years that most serious buyers are working with a broker and most brokers won’t work with a not serious buyer. Over the last 10 years I have sold directly to a buyer not represented by a broker two times and both were for apartments that were listed under $400K. Although I have met many “buyers” on a Sunday open house that were without an agent and although most were very pleasant 99% were tire kickers. Please don’t just chalk this up to more broker BS, it’s not my style but I am weary of how all this comes across via e mail. I really would much rather sit down with you over a cup of coffee to discuss this in more detail.

i think burkhardt's model makes some sense too and is worth considering. i am.

Ok, but more from one potential buyer (who has eyes on an FSBO, so this is not hypothetical). I think the critical distance is much more difficult to create than you imagine. On the one hand, because I have met the seller several times when viewing the apartment, I know much more about the seller than I would otherwise (occupation, selling b/c of relocating, etc.). On the other hand, our visits have devolved into friendly chats, and have unfortunately become TOO personal. For the other apartments we are looking at, we have never met the seller, and I would have no problem offering a very aggressive price.

[And I do appreciate Freakonomics. Its a fun book. I also have a graduate degree in economics from one of author's schools, so I am very familiar with his work.]

"I am concerned that if I offer what I think is fair in this market, there is not enough critical distance between the seller and the buyer."

TripleP, this is certainly an issue with FSBO's. As a buyer, if you are not comfortable with negotiations this can be intimidating. I'm not sure what advice to give you except for finding someone knowledgeable in real estate and comfortable with negotiations to help you through it. Maybe pay a flat fee to someone like urbandigs?

"i think burkhardt's model makes some sense too and is worth considering"

burkhardt's model is compelling, but would ask why Elliman do it? The only answer I can come up with is that if the FSBO option fails for the seller, they would be first in line to switch you to a full commission model. It is an interesting strategy.

TipleP - i think you need to know what you are willing to pay and friend or not that is what you stick to. don't confuse business with personal. if you make an aggressive offer and someone comes in with a better one, odds are they will not sell it to you for less. they will give you a chance to match the offer and then take it if you can't.

if anything, you should use that personal relationship to your advantage and let them know "i love your place. i can really see myself living here but financially i am only in a position to offer you $xxx. if this works for you, let's get it done. if not, keep me posted on how things go. i have enjoyed our meetings and i will still be interested."

"I know much more about the seller than I would otherwise (occupation, selling b/c of relocating, etc.). On the other hand, our visits have devolved into friendly chats, and have unfortunately become TOO personal."

I think this is a good thing. If I were you, every contact with the seller should be a negotiation opportunity. Talk about the apartment, why it is perfect for you, how great of a job they did decorating, and continue to hint that it is a bit too expensive. You have to guess that the seller is fairly new to FSBO and at the end of the day, all you care about is price. Don’t feel bad about it, it is business!

Also, I ran into an issue at closing (banks fault) where I did not have enough $$ to close and I found out last minute. I had built such a good relationship with the seller, we closed and I paid him the difference a week later. Without that personal relationship closing would have been pushed for weeks. These things matter.

This is always an interesting thread, however, Mr. theburkhardtgroup, what is your ultimate aim, you are basically just being paid hourly, do you want to just collect many apartments and build and empire? or do you just love real estate so much that you are basically working for free? btw, I am not knocking the model, it is interesting.

as an FSBO i look at burkhardt's model like this:

is it worth it for me to get him involved for $375 - which would put me on his site but more importantly have him e-blast my listing to brokers that just don't know i am out there right now. he claims that he can get my listing to 8000 brokers twice a month.

once that is done i have the decision to make in deciding whether or not the offers their clients bring net as much as i want with that 2.5% on top. not a bad deal for $375.00, i think.

I have a contract at 141 5th ave ($3m), did two furnished rentals this week am on my way to get a two bedroom lease-break at the west coast(fireplace,outdoor-space-Anyone interested?$5400-no fee). just trying to stay busy :)

when I was in the music biz the owner of the label would always tell me "It's just another bullet in the chamber" in regards to marketing plans I wasn't always up for.(Yes that's how I got in this biz, rock & Roll didn't pan out)

Not to take anything away from listing brokers(been one many times myself) but they basically sit at open houses for two hours on a Sunday, arrange weekly showings and get the ads in the paper, online etc.. and the brokers come. Its a nice gig in Manhattan for 3% $1m=$30,000=NICE! Who cares how much "traffic" your company website gets as brokers with buyers look up listings through their collective databases or the NYT's open house feature. "Broker gets buyer, searches TAXI database(Corcoran), searches NY Times open house schedule, e mails listings to customer, meet me at 41 5th ave at 1pm Sunday." That is how it works in a nutshell.

I think a straight FISBO has their work cut out for them in this city, why? Because essentially as far as buyers are concerned a broker is a "free" service. Also for the sophisticated Manhattan buyer a broker can provide a valuble service. My answer is work at a reasonable flat rate with additional services billed accordingly...not a real lot of work for me to do. But this will be very powerful for a seller looking to save a lot of money and get more or less everything a listing broker at any major firm can provide.

I agree with DIGS that the NBPLS website can't hurt but brings very little to the table, I want to help you sell your property at the end of the day that is what matters. free months of service, books and forms is a nice gesture...but bring me a qualified buyer that "signs on the line that is dotted!"(Glenn Gary reference :).

bmw I am still working in a conventional matter as well...With 10,000 sellers out there and climbing just give me 10% That's 1000x100=$100,000 I'm not greedy I can work with that ;)

Sniper: It is not that the listing is just on my site(although that's good). It will be in the databases that brokers search when looking for properties for their customers!

I think the burkhardt model is the right one for now assuming that listings through it don't get blackballed, which I could see happening. (Then comes the litigation...)

theburkhardtgroup - good job!! that's wonderful. I could work with that too :)

Thanks for all of your comments on my dilemma! I think the approach sniper laid out make sense: "here is what we will offer, we would love to live here, etc. And if this is not what you want, then let's keep in touch."

Frankly, we have nothing to lose. We are renting a great apartment that is reasonably priced and we don't have to make a move. Plus, I firmly believe prices are going to soften further and the owner's of the apartment I like are moving to the west coast.

sounds like a good plan. you do not having anything to lose and the best part is: you are being sincere and honest. it is what it is - you can either pay more or you can't. you don't have to be a negotiator.

I think Burkhardt's plan is spot on. I must admit it is very similar to some ideas I have spoken to partners with, but did not proceed on because we did not fulfill all our requirements for a GO.

someone mentioned the "blacklisting" of listings. would this be an issue?

i just heard a rumor of an elliman broker that started a flat rate selling forum.

anyone else hear this?

Im telling you, we will start to see crazy innovation in the next 12 months or so, that buyers/sellers will have tools at their disposal once thought never possible in a market with no public MLS system. It will be exciting I think and way more efficient for the consumer

"i just heard a rumor of an elliman broker that started a flat rate selling forum."

I think that is Burkhardt no? He made an Elliman reference above.

Burkhardt, $300 a seller isn't going to pay the bills. What's the catch? This isn't a snarky comment, just trying to understand the business model.

nevermind..its this no brokers please site, by Tom Demsker who used to be with Elliman

when you said you heard a rumor - where did you hear it?
just curious.

blaha, blaha, blaha... if you do not have a job and have all the time in the world, selling your property on your own makes sense; if you have the cash flow to advertise (not only on NY Times but all over), if you have the nerves to persuade brokers to bring you buyers (they do hold a huge chunck of buyers); if you want to lose all your Sundays and wait for your property to sell for the next 6 months good luck. Selling is not easy, every smart sales person knows that.

Cheers

co-worker asking if I heard about that Elliman broker that just left and started a flat fee sell side business. I didnt think it was this site

No catch JuiceMan read above. This will be perhaps a third of my business aimed at hardcore FSBOS that are willing to put in some sweat equity so to speak to save big money-100 clients x $300=$30,000 it's a very achievable goal. Otherwise hire me for the full service experience and my commission is 3%-3.5% still saving you a lot of gelt and not alienating any of the brokerage community as 2.5% of that goes to cooperating broker. www.theburkhardtgroup.com It will be outlined in detail on my site in a few days.

You may also pick up a direct buyer this way they troll SE and some of the other sites I will be advertising on. Either way it a brutal market so prepare to hunker down, no one has a magic formula to sell you apartment.

mallan - sour grapes? what do you care if someone "wastes" all their sundays? last time i checked, losing the wife and kids for 2 or 3 hours on a sunday is a bonus! also, $50K in my pocket instead of someone else's is an extra salary as i see it, no for "someone without a job."

you provide a service that is right for some people but again i will mention chapter 2 of "Freakonomics." The internet has become a great equalizer in industries like real estate and the stock market. Whereas in days past the "experts" held (or withheld) most of the information that is now readily available to those willing to look for it. i understand you have a job and you don't like to see others try to eliminate it but don't over-inflate the value of what you do (6% is inflation enough). mechanics don't get up in arms when people change their own oil. carpenters don't stand outside of home depot throwing eggs at do-it-yourself-ers. think about it.

i have been in sales for over a decade and i have seen plenty of monkeys succeed. if you are in sales i am sure you have too. every smart sales person knows that...and they bristle every time the moron in the next cubicle rings the bell.

urban - you have a great blog and great posts but i think the thing i appreciate the most about you is that you sense the change coming and are trying to embrace and be a part of it. just like you tell sellers "don't price behind the curve - be ahead of it," i think the same advice should be given to some of your fellow brokers - get ahead of the curve.

"100 clients x $300=$30,000 it's a very achievable goal."

I wouldn't bet on it. If you do the math, that is a very difficult way to make $30k and you will spend A LOT more time than you think. This is not a feasible business model.

"Otherwise hire me for the full service experience and my commission is 3%-3.5%"

That's exactly right. The catch is to reel sellers in for the $300 and then do everything possible to convert the customer to a traditional broker relationship. A 100 leads that turn into 10 traditional clients is a good investment. Let's be honest, you could give a crap about the $300, the sales lead is what you really care about.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this strategy. Let’s just not go overboard with all of the "changing the game" and "broker of the people" malarkey.

sniper... i like you :).

Burkhard "We list the apartment as paying a 2.5% commission to buyers broker- every broker in the city will of course except this,"
I believe you meant "accept". I know I type like an ape sometimes.. but if you are gonna send this.. just correct that typo.

UD and Burkhard good luck on your endeavors.... you guys will do well in this downturn... maybe you guys can hire Dottie :)

One got one buyer lined up... but I am a patient man and I'm thinking if I have one of you guys in tow to bid on a property it'll give me street creds and this should make up more than enough for the 2.5% I'll pay you... i'm in the market for up to $2.5MM and growing by the month :) Peace out !

i calls 'em like i sees 'em

thanks sniper!!

"last time i checked, losing the wife and kids for 2 or 3 hours on a sunday is a bonus!"

Amen to that. Win a free bonus game if you can get them to take your mother-in-law along with them!

Juice: A bit cynical are we? You really are not getting it these are two separate issues, there is no "reel them in" with the $300 dollars. The hard part is making sellers understand the role of the listing broker; 'sit in apartment on Sunday afternoon for two hours, schedule weekly showings , place ads in NYTs online, shoot out e blast and get the listing in the RLS system, repeat this until property sells.' Yes I have saved a a few deals with good diplomacy and I will offer my services as a negotiator as well if you feel you need it but for a flat fixed fee. You can pay now or you can hand over an additional 3% at the closing. This is what a listing broker does end of story, you decide if that is worth 3%? To some it is to others it is not; my idea is to offer my customers a choice where now they have very few.

I disagree that signing up 100 sellers out of a pool of 9,200 sellers and growing in Manhattan alone is a difficult task. I am also open to servicing Brooklyn as well..

Sure if you give the listing to your doorman hey you may have problems with a sale. The Internet has changed the ball game and I'm just stepping up and telling you how it is. I really should have rolled this out 5 years ago when you could put a flyer on a post and sell your apartment. Now you need broker participation more than ever and I am offering you a few ways to do things as effectively as with a big firm and save a few bucks in the process.

*west67th note taken on typo, thanks brother. Peace out 4x

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/131155-coop-17-west-67th-street-lincoln-square-new-york

It looks like you guys are in the biz... Can you guys explain this to me? 2 yrs... no sale.. so, by my law of economics.. I need to raise the price. LMAO... Curtis Jackson is BLIND... I can't see where the market is going, pls help me. UD you coulda made a killing on this guy as a market maker in NASDAQ, no?

It's the new economy. Price high to anticipate the low ball offer. Old economy was price low incite rabid bidding war. What's not to get?

what happened to price right and sell?

"http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/131155-coop-17-west-67th-street-lincoln-square-new-york

It looks like you guys are in the biz... Can you guys explain this to me? 2 yrs... no sale."

I can explain. That's a join with a huge maintenance. Sure, you get a huge apartment but you duplicate your costs because you are paying maintenance on two distinct apartments. I would never buy a join or create a join. I don't think joins are competitive in the marketplace unless the maintenance in the building is incredibly low.

w67thstreet,
Can you unjoin these two apartments? If so, there is some chance I would be interested in one of them. Roughly, what would they sell for separately?

"Juice: A bit cynical are we?"

Absolutely, and for good reason.

Yeah you are right of course, many reasons. I gave up on cynicism a long time ago as it was not conducive to spiritual equilibrium.

A healthy dose of cynicism helps protect one from being cheated easily and quickly. More people should be a little more cynical about what they are told.

Just be smart. But to each his own...

"I gave up on cynicism a long time ago as it was not conducive to spiritual equilibrium."

Probably true, but it is conductive to keeping more of my hard earned $ in my pocket. As I said before, I don't think there is anything wrong with your strategy and I wish you luck. It is great that sellers will have more choices; my point was for individuals to go into this (and all business relationships) with both eyes open.

"conductive" = "conducive"

unfortunately more money in pocket does not equal happiness, although perhaps the false illusion of happiness.
most of us know this but we can't shake it anyway.

I don't think we're talking about happiness, we're talking about honesty in business dealings, something that has been in short supply in the real estate business for a long, long time. I want to be treated fairly, my happiness has nothing to do with it. I don't want to overpay people for the services they provide, nobody does, I would say.