studios

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/376659-coop-30-east-95th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york/visit_original

I'm guessing the studio is small, the "kitchen" is not separate and the bath is outdated, because there is a lot to like about that place. 96th Street is a border between the upper east side and east harlem, but that border is softer near 5th Ave / Central Park which is prime. In the last five years, you wouldn't find anything cheaper in lower (below 96th St) manhattan. With this downturn, who knows.

I finally got to the actual Streeteasy page for the building. There is a 3rd floor one bedroom for rent for $1999 down from $2700 last fall. I assume they are getting no traffic at the higher price. I'd say that would put a comparable studio at a value of $1300 rent, if the one bedroom rents for that price.

I agree with PMG across the board. Specifically:

Location: If you could have everything you want, you might go a few blocks further south, but 95th and Madison is a pretty great location.

Price: Without doing an exhaustive (or, for that matter, any) survey, the judgment that this is a great price vs. any recent trade seems solid. This apartment last sold in 2004 for $250,000. See p.273 in link below:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/pdf/07pdf/sales_manhattan_04.pdf

If you spend an hour surfing Streeteasy, you will find a fair amount of comps-based evidence that trades are getting done at various places around the city around maybe 2005-ish levels. Some below that or even well below, some above or even well above and even the occasional trade at what seems like a 2008 level, but quite a few in and around the 2005 zone. This is admittedly a rough and unscientific observation (and may expose me to being flamed by people (and there are many on SE) who believe that they know, with certainty, where prices are/are going), but let's work with the premise for a moment. Here we have a listing with an ask 10% below the 2004 last sale. Streeteasy notes that two more apartments in the C line have traded since and had higher asking prices. You could look up the actual closing prices on the same nyc.gov site as the 2004 link above, but in all likelihood they were above $250K. On that basis, and knowing nothing else about the property, this looks very well priced.

Price, part 2: Also agree that in this market, who knows? That said, at this price it looks as if the seller is eating a lot of market movement

Condition: Obviously totally sight unseen, but I'd guess that PMG is on to something on condition. If everything was clean and modern, you'd never get this apartment for this price. Life is about tradeoffs...

Two more things: (1) if for some reason maintenance charges in the building have gone way up since 2004, that could change the relative value discussion (i.e., provide a non-market reason for value to be down). Worth doing some investigation of this - both 2004 to present as well as any propsective increases or assessments that might, God forbid, kick in right as you close. It has happened to people before. Specifically, make sure you know what maintenance is inclusive of the 2009 property tax increase; in our building maintenance went up 8% effective this month. (2) NYC real estate brokers routinely inflate square footage of their listings, and this one looks suspect to me. Using the dimensions on the floor plan, the overall footprint looks like it might be a 16x18-ish rectangle, plus a few SF for the portion of the bathroom that fall outside the rectangle. What's that, 300 or so sf? 15% square footage escalation is probably on the mild side, in my experience.

One more reply to PMG's good efforts - at $1300 rent and the value = 15x rent rule of thumb that many use on SE, implied value is $234K, which is in the zone vs. the listing price

Blossom16
First advice is to find a damn good RE lawyer by referrals, brokers will try and take advantage of you. Make sure u dont buy a lemon:
-pending lawsuits on building/unit
-financial fraud in coop board
-rampant pest problems
-building full of rent controlled tenents which can never be evicted
-structual probs with the building
-the coop does not own the land

Would I contact seller's broker about maintenance costs or is that something that can be looked up somewhere? Are there buyer's agents up there and do listing firms split the commission with them like they do down here or are they paid by the buyer?

Apparently the area is fine but I'd be VERY careful with securing those windows with the fire escape out there; just sayin' ....... This from The City Review (.com) re: 95th & Fifth - This area has many private schools and there are several nice restaurants nearby on Madison Avenue. Cross-town bus service is at 96th and 97th Streets. This is one of the quietest areas of Fifth Avenue. And this re: Madison & 94th - The building's location, in fact, has constantly improved with new and charming nearby restaurants and boutiques. Whereas the Upper East Side north of 86th Street was long considered rather declass�, this particular area is now prime, especially for families as many prestigious private schools are also nearby. Of course, what depression ii will wrought remains to be seen. Have her go up there & look around & talk to people & go up there at night as well. Good luck!

Blossom, there are buyer's agents but a GOOD real estate lawyer is what you want in NYC; s/he can look into that info for you.

Thanks. She lives in east village now but works retail upper east side. She would like to stay where she is but can't find anything this inexpensive and is tired of paying 1k a month for rent and sharing space with 3 other people. She is planning to take a look this week when she is back up there for work. I think, if we get serious, I will hire a real estate attorney. Didn't imaging all those possible problems with 300 sf of living space!

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/372950-coop-160-east-91st-carnegie-hill-new-york

how do you think this listing compares price wise and location? Any comments would be appreciated.

b16:
RE: PMG and UES101, As an avid RE bear and am always indifferent to rent/buy, care more about money than ownership prestige. They are giving you fair advice. If not, another reader would take up the fight, its what we do! The info you will get here and other blogs you couldn't buy, thank you Al Gore (he invented the web right?) I am an UWSer but my daughter is part of the uppereast elite school nonsense, So we are there all the time. your daughter NEEDS to do these things.
1. walk the hood.
2. Go up there with friends and walk until midnight more than once, its not the village.
3. If a biker or runner, go into the park at dusk, see if she is comfortable.
4. I am a believer in crime rates picking up/ single young woman need to be comfortable in their hood.
5.If you really like this area, think about 87th-91st west of lex, I like it better.
6. peace, Good Luck.

Blossom,

I used to live in 160 East 91st and it's a really great building. Directly across the street from the 92nd st Y, can easily walk to the 86th street subway (which, because it has both local and express trains, is much better than the 96th St. stop), a post office, NYSC, shopping, etc. There's a live in super, elevators, part time doorman (I think 5pm - midnight, plus afternoons on the weekends), excellent financials, and it's always clean and well maintained.

Other apartments in the same price will be further from the subway, won't have a doorman, and will probably be walk ups.

Now the bad. The B lines do not get any light. Literally a brick wall six feet from the window. She will not know if it's about to rain or if it's a beautiful spring day. I'm emphasizing this point because you need to understand that I'm not exaggerating at all.

A little history on the building:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/realestate/02scap.html

b16: One other thought Dad. Why not still rent. lets say you were going to spend 250K, 3% on 250k is $625 per month. Add that to daughters 1k per month= $1,625 per month. Shop for $2,000per month studios, offer them $1,625, you might get lucky. The 2k range studio is a HUGE uptick in lifestyle from a $250k ownership. You would probably get doorman, elevator and more. I would also consider upper west side. Easy crosstown bus service if near 86th or 96th

B16, I agree with patient09 about rental values. At $1600 you might get a rental downtown where your daughter wants to be, but you certainly can get a nicer studio on the UES or UWS with a short commute to an UES job.

As one example, here's a larger luxury renovated studio 2 blocks from the M96 crosstown bus stop: The ASKING price in net effective rent of $1604:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/434832-condo-230-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york

Agree with patient and PMG in that renting is the better route.

It's hard to explain my justification without sounding like a jerk, but purchasing a studio is making a strong commitment to being single. It's not going to be easy to make up the transaction fees on a short-term purchase, and she'll want to be rid of it as soon as she finds a partner.

$225K is a robbery and I will explain why.

Here is a historical information on median prices for Manhattan, starting on page 6:

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/images/reports/pde05.pdf

The last time we had a crysis studios were going for $100k-$150k, with $80k price at the gloom moment. 95th is a sucky place. If you believe this crysis is nothing to worry about, then $225k is ok. Given that talking heads on TV say this is nearly a depression -- this might make 1998 look like a booming year. Sooo... I would consider a reasonable probability that this studio will go in price down to $90k within one year.

Furthermore, going back to the lessons learned in '98 crysis -- nobody wants studios because 1BR are just a bit more expensive and in a bad RE market 1BRs will easily go at today's bid for studio.

Plus, for the life of me the maintenance is just darn too high. If you want to find a place to park for your girl -- P09 gives a really good advise. I am thinking come Spring 2010 you'll be chosing between a sweet bunch of 1BRs for $225k.

I agree that wait and see is the best approach at this stage of the game. Patience will be well rewarded, I don't have a crystal ball but we are in a declining market place and I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel...yet. I have a daughter that is 21, son is 24 so I understand your concerns both of mine were born here. I know my daughter who was raised downtown and hangs out in the East Village quite a bit would not be happy up on 95th and Lex. If a she hangs out primarily downtown this will become a big hassle and expensive with cabs.

Hang in there at least another 6 months, have her start following apartments in various neighborhoods she likes and keep an eye on prices etc.. Disclaimer: I am a broker. I believe having a good, knowledgeable and honest broker(yes they exist regardless of what some will tell you here :) will be a great benefit to your daughter. Good luck!

b16:
Full disclosure, I am not a broker. Many brokers provide a great service. Most don't. It just simply is not worth what they charge. If you can get one to work on a flat fee or for about 25% of the going rate, then even I, and many others on this Board will allow you to proceed. Otherwise, sight unseen, we will refer to you in the most terrible of terms. peace, good luck.

Thanks for all your comments. I do think we will wait until the summer atleast. We just started looking last week. I will start to track the properties that we might be interested in purchasing. She did say that she thought there were mostly families on the UES and she would miss the village if she moved but is looking forward to living by herself....It seems complicated by having to find a property that will allow parents to cosign. Thanks to all!!

P09 If the seller has a broker how are you saving? In this case the seller has signed an agreement to pay a broker 5%-6% of the sale price-the buy-side broker gets paid out of this.. The commission model needs to change I agree as you know from my posts, but lets have a hard look at the sell side commission model.

But you have to approach the deal smartly, (without going into all the dynamics) I am now representing buyers for 1% as a buyers broker who is entitled to 50% of the commission...well do the math. We may have to be creative in how we deal with seller and his broker but I will give your offer more power/save you money.

I have been showing, selling and renting apartments in this city since 1991, I know a little bit about real estate and I love what I do. I have lived in this city since 1981 and raised two children here so I know a few things about Manhattan as well. A good buyers broker is really what's essential, sell-side brokerage is what really needs to be reformed-you get 3-6% for essentially sitting in an apartment on Sunday afternoons and advertising it. That is why I will list your apartment for 1-3.5%

I tend to agree with you. Most agree that the model is flawed. A real simple basic problem I have ALWAYS had is this. Why does the listing agency/broker get so much. Other than advertising and showing up so ANOTHER broker can bring a buyer, they add NO value. The split should be 25-75, not 50-50. Then buy side brokers will flourish and compete for customers.

Seller brokers cutting comm to 1-3.5%... Re: "sell-side brokerage is what really needs to be reformed-you get 3-6% for essentially sitting in an apartment on Sunday afternoons and advertising it." Even 1% is too much, no? ;)

The problem also lies with the Brokerage firms in our city they should not be getting 50% of the deal, how about 15-25%? Maybe they need to change their model-not likely I know. There is room for a well funded person to start a new brokerage firm and turn this city on it's ear, there are a few considering it and if I can find the right partner it will be me.

1% if I can sell to a direct buyer. 3-3.5% max commission so this way the seller benefits from full cooperation with the entire brokerage community. On a co-broke 1% to the burkhardt group 2.5% to buyers broker. Best I can do until the system changes.

B16, if the brokers have scared you off and you want some free advice from a 26 year resident and 21 year owner feel free to contact me for unbiased advice as I'm not selling anything. I lived through the last downturn, and I saw studios not trade and larger apartments trade at a loss for eight years. Currently I live happily in a west side studio. uws.dude *plus* @yahoo.com

blossom: the Manhattan real estate market is very different from real estate markets elsewhere. Be prepared to deal with a whole host of paperwork and other obstacles, aside from those associated with getting a mortgage, that you do not have to deal with elsewhere.

Find a broker who has experience dealing with people unfamiliar from the area. You don't want a broker (or lawyer) who just "assumes" that you know what the co-op board requires or what to look for in the co-op board's financials, etc.

fakeestate, Is she looking or transacting? anyone with transaction experience would be a help, and unlike a lawyer, would not charge her for the info or advice.

just looking. . . and educating myself about the market up there

blossom -- if she wants to rent I just listed a no-fee studio for $1,650. It's in the Financial District -- so probably the same length of commute she's got now -- Murphy Bed, doorman building w/laundry and elevator, good landlord.

I'm at ali [at] dgneary [dot] com

ali r.
{downtown broker}

$1650 for a doorman studio is a great price!

rent for now -- much cheaper