DUMBO--advice on nabe

A bz associate mine lives in DUMBO. Parking used to be a breeze, but they just started changing streets from pretty much free parking, to 2 hour parking during the day. With all the new residents, I think the days of free parketing are up. I figure they're ALL side streets in DUMBO.

The manhattan bridge has trains, so figure it will be how close you are to that or BQE.

For transportation, I'd just check a subway map...

You'll want to stay away from the projects.

I lived in Dumbo years ago, before it got gentrified. In those days it was just crazy artists down there.

I got mugged at knifepoint by a couple of jokers from the projects. I was walking home at night the F Train York Street station to my loft on Water St.

Now the neighborhood looks completely different, there are shops and groceries, and well-heeled people living there. But the projects still loom on the east side of the neigbhorhood. If I were you I would stay away from that end. And also have a car, don't depend on the subway all the time.

changedropper,

Dumbo has a lot going for it - lots of galleries, some nice non-chain shopping, cobblestone streets, old warehouse charm, park space, and views. I've had pretty good luck with street-side parking, though it was a bit tougher last time I went (due to the winter flea market). The noise is only bad if you're close to the bridge (and it is pretty bad there), so make sure you've got triple-panes on the windows if that's a big issue for you. Transportation is a bit of an issue, as you've really only got the F nearby. Walking to the A/C or 2/3 isn't too bad, but it's longer than you'd want for a regular commute, I think, and in most cases you'd have to walk through some really noisy, vehicle-heavy areas to get there. I've always found that Dumbo's a bit of a niche market, as people who love it really love it, whereas others are pretty indifferent to it. As always, the best thing to do is spend some time there and get a good feel for it.

Street parking is a bit of a nightmare, but if you have flexible hours and don't need to use your car daily you can pull it off. You may find yourself parking in Vinegar Hill much of the time. I would opt for a monthly parking space, though. I saw a car get towed last week - and it turned out the guy was just in a deli getting a sandwich.

I love the neighborhood for its architecture, the parks, and the bridges. Services are vastly improved over what they were even a few years ago. I don't love the noise or the aforementioned parking issues. I think David Walentas (who developed most of DUMBO) is a genius, even if I don't always agree with his methods (give artists cheap space so they will gentrify a neighborhood for you, then kick them out or raise their rents). And I hope they don't build a high rise on Dock Street, even if it does net the nabe a school.

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

"I've always found that Dumbo's a bit of a niche market, as people who love it really love it, whereas others are pretty indifferent to it."

They must REALLY love it then... considering it is substantially more expensive than anywhere else in Brooklyn... not exactly what I'd call "niche"... at least compared to areas which more more narrow demographics, like WB.

Thanks Graffiti--damn that sounds scary--sorry you had to deal with that. When you say "east side" are you referring to Vinegar Hill or anything east of the Manhattan Bridge? Was your place on Water east or west or the Manhattan Bridge? thanks

"They must REALLY love it then... considering it is substantially more expensive than anywhere else in Brooklyn... not exactly what I'd call "niche"... at least compared to areas which more more narrow demographics, like WB."

I'm not going to rehash this conversation ad nauseum, because we simply disagree, but yes, those that love it really do love it, and many of them are quite well off. The pricing is highly influenced by the housing mix, which is unlike anything else in Brooklyn really. Williamsburg is really not narrow at all in terms of demographics unless you get all your info from Curbed.

Anyway, changedropper, as you're renting, it's relatively low risk, but I strongly suggest you spend a weekend there to see how it fits your tastes/needs.

> Williamsburg is really not narrow at all in terms of demographics unless you get all your info from
> Curbed.

Yes, very wide.... wanna be hipsters under 25 AND wanna be hipsters under 35 putting their kids in Che tshirts.

VERY wide demographic.

And, no... I don't get my WB info from curbed...

Although I'm pretty sure you got your WB info from the WB, watching TV from Boston and seeing where the "cool kids" lived.

are there any good public schools for dumbo..?

"Yes, very wide.... wanna be hipsters under 25 AND wanna be hipsters under 35 putting their kids in Che tshirts."

You're just plain wrong on this. Really. It's arguably the most diverse neighborhood I've lived in.

"Although I'm pretty sure you got your WB info from the WB, watching TV from Boston and seeing where the "cool kids" lived."

What?

No schools, period. You share with the projects...

They're trying to build one, but everyone is protesting.

Just a quick two cents re transportation. There's only one subway that's truly convenient to DUMBO proper, and that's the York St. station on the F (the one Graffiti mentions). I've been in it two times, and it's always seemed menacingly deserted. During commuting hours, it may be populated and fine, but not early in the morning or at night. The area around the exit also doesn't feel particularly safe if you're alone at night.

The A is up the hill, too, but a longer walk. I assume everyone who lives in DUMBO, a) doesn't have to get anywhere on a daily basis; b) drives to their job; c) is convenient to the F on the work-side; or d) doesn't mind a 5-10 minute walk to the A.

I wouldn't rank DUMBO high on the transportation convenience scale (and those Manhattan Bridge trains are LOUD).

On the upside, it's got some great restaurants, bars and shops, and the waterfront park areas are fantastic. We live in Brooklyn Heights and walk down there often just to stroll around. The area between the two bridges is incredible. Something about being steps from the water is really appealing (even if you can't swim in it)

where do these cool people send their kids to school?....or maybe they are too cool and don't have kids

williamsburg is the most diverse neighborhood you have ever lived in??? you should check out the bronx.

> williamsburg is the most diverse neighborhood you have ever lived in??? you should check out the
> bronx.

He's comparing it to Boston.

> The A is up the hill, too,

What hill?

or astoria queens for that matter which was statistically proven to be the most diverse neighborhood in all of new york city. or so the times or some such paper said not that long ago

oh HA i didn't see that comparison to Boston. that is ludicrous :)

jasonkyle, never compared it to Boston, that's nyc10022's way of being cute when he's got nothing to say anymore. I never said Williamsburg is the most diverse neighborhood I've ever been to - just the most diverse place I've lived in. Big difference, no?

yeah i went back and reread it and i see what you meant. it's funny to think of someone comparing boston to williamsburg though. i got a good chuckle out of it.

Only if Boricua College is the Puerto Rican affiliate of Boston College!

"I never said Williamsburg is the most diverse neighborhood I've ever been to - just the most diverse place I've lived in."

Meaning he's still comparing it to Boston

Do you think DUMBO is safe for a girl coming home alone from work at night after dark? This is assuming she is coming from the F train stop on York...

nyc10022, honestly, what is your problem? I've lived in several neighborhoods in this city. Get over yourself.

changedropper,
I think the York stop is fine, though I think it depends on the time. If it's 2am, as someone said above, it can feel pretty deserted and therefore unsafe relative to some other stations.

changedropper, do yourself a favor and take a cab. If you work downtown you can probably get to DUMBO for <$10. Why take the risk?

junkman I work in mid-town and taxi is not viable everyday--If the risk is substantial I will look in another nabe. Thanks everyone for your input

"nyc10022, honestly, what is your problem? I've lived in several neighborhoods in this city. Get over yourself."

Yes, we know... Boston, Upper West Side, Brooklyn Heights, Williamburg. Its like a tour of all the least diverse places!

I don't care for the people of DUMBO. A year or two ago some residents tried to organize a grassroots campaign to kick panhandlers out of their neighborhood. Imagine that. Kicking panhandlers out of Brooklyn! The birthplace of the ACLU!

While these were select individuals, I believe they captured the ethos of the DUMBO mentality that they are better than the rest of the outer boroughs. DUMBO doesn't even have a supermarket. What kind of neighborhood is that?

"Do you think DUMBO is safe for a girl coming home alone from work at night after dark? This is assuming she is coming from the F train stop on York..."

If its actual DUMBO yes. Vinegar Hill, no.

Last time I took F, there was a cop booth inside station, and a cop car parked in front coming and going (hours later). Remember, brooklyn navy yard and the policy squad car spot are all in walking distance... so, very cop-heavy. And there is a HUGE luxury building across from the stop, and the central corridor of DUMBO a block away.

So, I wouldn't put it in the Brooklyn Heights safe territory... but I'd certainly put it ahead of most of the spots folks call Williamsburg - certainly more than McCaren park or the spots under the above ground subway lines or the places as you get closer to BQE.

changedropper,
In that case, check out the police statistics
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/crime_prevention/crime_statistics.shtml

Here's the stats for DUMBO (84th precinct): http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs084pct.pdf

84 covers most of boerum hill as well, although not the projects.

Not quite correct...

"The Residential areas are : Brooklyn Heights, Boerum Hill, Vinegar Hill and the Farragut Residences."
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/precincts/precinct_084.shtml

Farragut.... thats a HUGE bunch of projects.

Strangely enough, DUMBO isn't mentioned.

Sorry I was talking about the projects in Boerum Hill. I thought Farragut was over the easter border of the coverage.

*eastern

I don't know what projects are what, but I know I've seen Farragut houses written on a bunch o big ass projects over there.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycha/html/developments/bklynfarragut.shtml

These seem to be the ones smack there next to VH.

"Yes, we know... Boston, Upper West Side, Brooklyn Heights, Williamburg. Its like a tour of all the least diverse places!"

nyc10022, flattered that you're taking notes on my life, but even then, you've got it wrong. Even for someone on an anonymous message board, you've certainly got a stick way up your patootie. Chill out.

"certainly more than McCaren park"

McCarren Park is actually quite safe - I don't think you know Williamsburg well at all.

You are a tourist who doesn't know much, so that you didn't know the truth make much sense.

If you think McCarren is safer than DUMBO means you don't know Brooklyn at all.

You can claim what I don't know all you want, but... what, have you been here for 2 weeks?

And keep telling me how I don't know WB. Amuse me.

You were learning about WB on the WB while I was there....

Keep telling me you know everything about WB.

You still think its a diverse neighborhood!

I'm a tourist? Yikes, now you're just blatantly making stuff up? Come on now, that's what you've got to resort to?

I said McCarren was quite safe, I did not compare it to Dumbo, which is quite safe as well. If you read what I wrote, I simply stated that at 2am the York St stop can feel deserted. Williamsburg is diverse, I can't believe you deny this!

> I said McCarren was quite safe, I did not compare it to Dumbo,

You were specifically arguing with the comparison to dumbo!

Oh my lord, does your nonsense ever end?!?!? Stop lying already!

Jesus, go home tourist.

nyc, got it, your comments are vulgar and juvenile - exactly the kind of behavior you accuse others of when they can't refute arguments anymore. You can choose to actually post like a civil adult or choose to be the kind of poster others roll their eyes at. Good luck.

Janus7 - You're referring to "Smokey" who has spent the last 5 years standing outside Peas & Pickles with his occasional sidekick "Crackey." Smokey is the neighborhood drug dealer...How dare they want to kick out this "panhandler"

What makes dumbo the most expensive in brooklyn as some say in this thread. I know B Hts, and wmburg, butt don't really know dumbo.

jim,

On a ppsf basis, Dumbo is probably the most expensive area in Brooklyn, but there are clear reasons for that: the housing stock is almost entirely condos (which are more expensive), and there really aren't any brownstones I can think of (which tend to be a bit cheaper on a ppsf basis). Some might think being most expensive = most desirable, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's also a very small area, so probably a bit more prone to fluctuations and skew from the high-end conversions/new construction. Hope that's helpful.

To figure out what made Dumbo so expensive, it's helpful to look at *who* made Dumbo. David Walentas is a visionary developer, who transformed the neighborhood almost singlehandedly. In 1981, he bought a number of buildings in the then-bleak area and, over time, managed to rezone the neighborhood. His company, Two Trees, still owns a number of commercial and residential rental buildings, and he rode the crest of the wave he created to sold-out condos in One Main, 30 Main, and 70 Washington (in addition to 110 Livingston in Downtown Brooklyn).

His strategy to bring in high-end buyers seems to have worked in this way: while awaiting rezoning, he made space available to artists and arts organizations at a discounted rate. The artists transformed the neighborhood by creating a demand for services in the area (seriously, in the 1980's you couldn't get a cup of coffee in Dumbo). Coffee shops, delis and bars emerged to serve the artist population. "Destination" restaurants like Superfine (which sprang from the backside of a divey bar before moving to its current location) began to bring in people from outside the neighborhood. Walentas used the vast lobby spaces in his buildings as galleries, and large-scale art events spilled out into the cobbled streets. People were enchanted by the river, the bridges, the sense that something cool was happening. By the time the buildings had been reclassified as residential properties, there was enough pent-up demand to sell some very pricey (albeit extraordinary) apartments. People were willing to pay more for the views, the high ceilings, the massive pre-war masonry and steel construction - especially because there was little condominium stock in the surrounding neighborhoods. Most of Brooklyn Heights was/is co-op, much of it with very high maintenance. Walentas didn't overdo it with in-building amenities, and his timing was brilliant.

I have friends who lost their studios/offices/illegal homes as these buildings were converted, and saw some great art spaces transformed into high-end appliance stores and children's boutiques. But most people in Dumbo (even those who lost their cheap rentals) don't begrudge Two Trees their systematic transformation of the neighborhood. Like a brilliant card player who lays down a straight flush, you just shake your head and hand him your money. He outplayed you, fair and square.

However: his Dock Street building is the most controversial move yet, and he may lose whatever good will he still has in the community. Residents of 30 Main have begun ditching their coveted apartments in anticipation of their river views being blocked by a residential tower. There's an ongoing fight over the historical buildings, the public school that would be housed in the lower stories, the proposed height of the structure, etc.. Given the economic climate and the state of the real estate market, I know I wouldn't be trying to add residential units to an already built-up area, especially given the chilly reception One Brooklyn Bridge Park has been receiving since last summer.

Then again, the man looked at an industrial wasteland in 1981 and saw the potential for a well-heeled boho community. And spent 20+ years making it so. I would never bet against Walentas.

tina,

Great summary! I feel that should be published in a Dumbo brochure somewhere.

thanks for the comments tina. great read.

tina,

hey! you calling 'between the bridges' a dive? god i miss that place.

I called it "divey". With affection!

Thanks for great summary..I guess I'll go check it out

Tina, lets be fair. Walentas obviously did this for profit, but he STILL spends crazy amount of effort and dollar on arts/culture, definitely more so than any developer I've seen.

It wasn't a bait and switch, he's still doing it. He rents out spaces at half price or sometimes free (yes free) to what he things are good arts groups. Sure, it helps build the neighborhood, but this isn't exactly standard. I know a bunch of artists in those buildings.

I also remember when curbed covered the "I won't open chain stores" thing, where he literally tries to keep "cooler" stuff in, and not going to the highest bidders.

Yes, he's in it for the money, but to play it off like a bait and switch is not quite accurate.

Also, a lot of the "bad stuff" he gets accused of isn't actually him. I've heard people refer to certain buildings, but they were owned by others... like that Guttman/Greenberg whats his name that torched stuff in Greenpoint.

Dock Street, yes, thats a big controversy, but a LOT of bs on both sides there (including falsified pictures by folks who didn't support it).

"nyc, got it, your comments are vulgar and juvenile - exactly the kind of behavior you accuse others of when they can't refute arguments anymore. You can choose to actually post like a civil adult or choose to be the kind of poster others roll their eyes at. Good luck."

Ok, hall monitor hypocrite. Some day we can try to live up to all your so called "adult" behavior. You are as guilty as anyone.

Thanks for the laugh.

Thanks for that informative summary--you said

"especially given the chilly reception One Brooklyn Bridge Park has been receiving since last summer"

Why did One Brooklyn Bridge Park get a chilly reception? I would think a park would be well received as DUMBO isnt exactly filled with green spaces...

changedropper,

Park isn't there yet, but they're making a lot of progress on parks in that area recently. 1BBP hasn't done well because it's kind of isolated on Furman St. It literally abuts the (noisy) BQE, which is probably a turnoff for a lot of people who can afford an apartment there. I guess you could technically call this Brooklyn Heights, and while there isn't much new development in the neighborhood (20 Henry is the closest thing I can think of, and that's been stalled), I'm not sure there's a lot of demand for it from the Heights crowd either.

"What makes dumbo the most expensive in brooklyn as some say in this thread. I know B Hts, and wmburg, butt don't

really know dumbo."

My take on some of the reasons... no particular order, just the stuff that comes to me... by no means complete.

1. Better/more updated housing stock on average (I like brownstones but a LOT of stuff that really needs work).

There is very little unrenovated stuff.... and the minimum standards are good. There are relatively few small crappy apartments.
2. General demand for the neighborhood, its definitely been "hot", its been named as hot/expensive, and a

tremendous amount giving PR to the neighborhood. Think the waterfalls, the Flea winter market. Tons of artsy fartsy stuff... walentas does a ton of events to play up the neighborhood, its just getting much more PR for all of this, and tourist focus seems to have shifted to DUMBO specifically
3. Diversity of appeal. WB is known as hipster hell, and a lot of adults simply avoid it. DUMBO has the artsy farsty thing going, but its actually got a LOT of things going for kids. Might surprise some folks, but TONS of parents taking strollers over to the park. BH is more mixed.
4. Brooklyn Bridge Park events - tons of stuff bringing people to the waterfront, and through DUMBO
5. Better parking for the yuppies. Its has been one of the best places for keeping your range rover, though this is changing.
6. Increased appeal of the "walk over the brooklyn bridge" thing. Amazingly, I remember talking about walking over

the bridge 10 years ago, and it seemed foreign to a lot of Manhattanites. Many didn't know you could even do it.

With the "hot" of brooklyn in general AND the bridge anniversary, much more of this goes on. And the bridge drops

you off right in DUMBO, so Grimaldi's/Jacques Torres has become a "must see". This can't be underestimated.
7. Its in every freaking movie/tv show.
8. Its the "new" thing.

Maybe the most important of all

8. It makes sense to Manhattanites. Not saying they are necessarily correct, but I think to many it seems to be a much more logical jump from a manhattan high rise to a place in DUMBO. I think part of this is the housing stock, I think part of it is DUMBO's manhattan focus (if nothing else, coming from being next to the road leading to it). I think its easier for folks moving out of manhattan to justify the compromise in BH.

wow, sorry, textpad killed my formatting. Trying again..

"What makes dumbo the most expensive in brooklyn as some say in this thread. I know B Hts, and wmburg, butt don't really know dumbo."

My take on some of the reasons... no particular order, just the stuff that comes to me... by no means complete.

1. Better/more updated housing stock on average (I like brownstones but a LOT of stuff that really needs work). There is very little unrenovated stuff.... and the minimum standards are good. There are relatively few small crappy apartments.

2. General demand for the neighborhood, its definitely been "hot", its been named as hot/expensive, and a tremendous amount giving PR to the neighborhood. Think the waterfalls, the Flea winter market. Tons of artsy fartsy stuff... walentas does a ton of events to play up the neighborhood, its just getting much more PR for all of this, and tourist focus seems to have shifted to DUMBO specifically

3. Diversity of appeal. WB is known as hipster hell, and a lot of adults simply avoid it. DUMBO has the artsy farsty thing going, but its actually got a LOT of things going for kids. Might surprise some folks, but TONS of parents taking strollers over to the park. BH is more mixed.

4. Brooklyn Bridge Park events - tons of stuff bringing people to the waterfront, and through DUMBO

5. Better parking for the yuppies. Its has been one of the best places for keeping your range rover, though this is changing.

6. Increased appeal of the "walk over the brooklyn bridge" thing. Amazingly, I remember talking about walking over the bridge 10 years ago, and it seemed foreign to a lot of Manhattanites. Many didn't know you could even do it. With the "hot" of brooklyn in general AND the bridge anniversary, much more of this goes on. And the bridge drops you off right in DUMBO, so Grimaldi's/Jacques Torres has become a "must see". This can't be underestimated.

7. Its in every freaking movie/tv show.

8. Its the "new" thing.

9. Its cooler-looking. Its a damn movie set!

Maybe the most important of all

10. It makes sense to Manhattanites. Not saying they are necessarily correct, but I think to many it seems to be a much more logical jump from a manhattan high rise to a place in DUMBO. I think part of this is the housing stock, I think part of it is DUMBO's manhattan focus (if nothing else, coming from being next to the road leading to it). I think its easier for folks moving out of manhattan to justify the compromise in DUMBO.

"I know I wouldn't be trying to add residential units to an already built-up area, especially given the chilly reception One Brooklyn Bridge Park has been receiving since last summer. "

Horrible comparison. 1 BBP is like an island to itself, its barely in any areas. You have to walk under the BQE to get there from all of the rest of BH. Its an island to itself, missing many of the advantages of BH itself.

Compare to jcondos, which supposedly sold out a the same time.

Changedropper, if it's not clear above -- 1 BPP isn't a park, it's a condo development (although the marketing does try to sell it as sort destined to be nestled in a woodland paradise). It's a somewhat fair comparison to DUMBO in that it's new and a similar type of condo conversion to what made DUMBO. The park would be next to it -- between it and DUMBO, actually. All those empty piers in front of the Brooklyn Promenade are destined to be a big, beautiful park (when, exactly, is anyone's guess, although work is actually happening and the DUMBO parks are a good example of what it could look like).

Back to your original question about the York St. stop. I rarely get down to that area, almost never at night. You should take a trip on the F, get off at that stop in the middle of some day. Then imagine it with, like, 2 or less people on the platform (if that) and that loooooooooong tunnel before you get to a booth or anything else. And then you emerge onto a dark street surrounded by tall buildings and almost no pedestrian traffic.

If you need to be subway dependent and you travel regularly from midtown late at night, I'd think twice about the York St. stop, police presence or not. It's dark. It's surrounded by tall buildings. The cops sit there, yeah, but they can't see more than 50 feet in any direction.

I like DUMBO a lot, but if my wife were coming to the York St. stop after 11 p.m. or so, I'd meet her on the platform. The area isn't a war zone, but I'd err on the side of caution.

And then I'd worry about getting mugged. I've probably seen too many movies ...

JKB, you nailed it. Can't believe it was suggested that it's safer than McCarren Park. Someday, 1BBP will look great, but there's no rush to buy there at all.

nyc10022 - I think I was being fair to Walentas. I didn't mean to come off as negative - I think what he has accomplished is monumental, and a case study in (actually urban) New Urbanism. And I certainly wasn't accusing him of the evil crap Guttman has perpetrated.

(Here in Red Hook we have Greg O'Connell, who likewise bought a ton of buildings decades ago, including the one that now houses Fairway. Unlike Walentas, though, O'Connell has fought rezoning. While I think his heart is in the right place, I do believe our neighborhood would thrive with a bit more of its building stock converted to residential use, such as the delayed/left for dead Imlay Street project. Ah, but that's for a different thread, should some unsuspecting poster start one. Anyone?)

"It's a somewhat fair comparison to DUMBO in that it's new and a similar type of condo conversion to what made DUMBO."

Except that wasn't what the comparison was. Reread the claim:

Here was the claim:
"I know I wouldn't be trying to add residential units to an already built-up area, especially given the chilly reception One Brooklyn Bridge Park has been receiving since last summer. "

This isn't about building type, this is about.. as it says... adding residential units to a built up area. 1 BBP is NOT a built up area... DUMBO is.

Just a bad logical comparison here.

Its a fair comparison of building type, yes, but that has nothing to do with the claim. Its very different in terms of pretty much every other factor... which is why it didn't sell at all, and DUMBO pretty much all sold out.

"Back to your original question about the York St. stop. I rarely get down to that area, almost never at night. You should take a trip on the F, get off at that stop in the middle of some day. Then imagine it with, like, 2 or less people on the platform (if that) and that loooooooooong tunnel before you get to a booth or anything else."

F has a cop booth on the platform. There was a cop in it last 2 times I arrived.

More importantly, a long tunnel, is that really the complaint?

> And then you emerge onto a dark street surrounded by tall buildings and almost no pedestrian traffic.

If someone is saying DUMBO has no pedestrian traffic, I wonder if they've been there in a while... DUMBO now is not DUMBO of even a year or two ago. That you visited in 2003 isn't very meaningful.

"If you need to be subway dependent and you travel regularly from midtown late at night, I'd think twice about the York St. stop, police presence or not. It's dark. It's surrounded by tall buildings. The cops sit there, yeah, but they can't see more than 50 feet in any direction."

Really, have you ever been to dumbo? Are you suggesting they don't have lighting?

> And then I'd worry about getting mugged. I've probably seen too many movies ...

Ok, have you been to *New York* since 2003?

> Can't believe it was suggested that it's safer than McCarren Park

Yes, bjw, and this would not be the first time you "can't believe" the truth. In fact, its sort of standard at this point.

McCaren is not a safe place, and I would not let a girlfriend walk around it after dark. Which, to me, applies to the majority of Williamsburg once you get outside the primary train blocks.

I happen to know several folks who have had breakins while there.

And, note, I'm not even bringing up Machetes.

With regards to One Brooklyn Bridge Park, I believe that development would have sold out if it had been priced correctly. Yes, it's in a weird location. But if those units had been priced at $600/sf - even with the looming taxes - it would have sold. The views are extraordinary, and the building amenities (not my bag personally, but) make up for the isolation. People were really excited about that development - they had huge numbers pre-registered - despite its obvious drawbacks. But $1200/sf? People didn't even bother to show up.

"nyc10022 - I think I was being fair to Walentas. I didn't mean to come off as negative - I think what he has accomplished is monumental, and a case study in (actually urban) New Urbanism. And I certainly wasn't accusing him of the evil crap Guttman has perpetrated."

Fair enough. I was probably reacting to this more than anything - "He outplayed you, fair and square". I think we agree. He did some good things, caused some not so positive changes, but generally he's been pretty good on the developer scale (especially when you put Boymelgreen and Sacarano and Guttman on that scale).

"(Here in Red Hook we have Greg O'Connell, who likewise bought a ton of buildings decades ago, including the one that now houses Fairway. Unlike Walentas, though, O'Connell has fought rezoning. While I think his heart is in the right place, I do believe our neighborhood would thrive with a bit more of its building stock converted to residential use, such as the delayed/left for dead Imlay Street project. Ah, but that's for a different thread, should some unsuspecting poster start one. Anyone?)"

I think Red Hook shows how NOT to do it. There was so much potential, and so much of it was botched.
I like Red Hook for its fundamentals, let me be clear there. About 8 years ago, I was actually going there daily for stretches of a few months. Defontes and Lily's were i think the only real choices.

But the "development" sucked. Those huge buildings right on the water at Sebring? Those have been eyesores for like 10 years now after they announced plans. Thats the worst case... no new apartments, and all the pain of construction. The docks took so long to get anything, and yes, there is fairway (cool, and love the artist apartments), but that ikea?

Some guy built a guido staten island "castle" near the projects.

To me, Red Hook could have been so much more. Just so much missed opportunity.

"With regards to One Brooklyn Bridge Park, I believe that development would have sold out if it had been priced correctly. Yes, it's in a weird location. But if those units had been priced at $600/sf - even with the looming taxes - it would have sold. The views are extraordinary, and the building amenities (not my bag personally, but) make up for the isolation. People were really excited about that development - they had huge numbers pre-registered - despite its obvious drawbacks. But $1200/sf? People didn't even bother to show up."

I believe jcondos sold out at pretty much the $1200 or so range. Friends looked at a high floor in the $1500s. Hell, 70 Washington was rolling at over $1k psf.

So, I think it just shows how 1BBP is not a particularly good comparison for DUMBO.

(and, yes, I agree with you overall that 1BBP's shortfalls means it SHOULD have been priced much lower than that)

Agreed. Lousy comparison for DUMBO - but I was referring to its sales slump as a sign of the times/market in general.

"McCaren is not a safe place, and I would not let a girlfriend walk around it after dark. Which, to me, applies to the majority of Williamsburg once you get outside the primary train blocks.
I happen to know several folks who have had breakins while there.
And, note, I'm not even bringing up Machetes."

You're just totally wrong on this or have a really skewed idea of what "safe" means, especially for someone who claims to have lived in this city as long as you have - I live a few blocks from the park and have never seen nor heard of anything even remotely shady. I mean, there's a hugely popular dog run there, and many parents take their kids to the park, not to mention the incredibly bright stadium lights that are on past 10pm. And all the activity around the track. Have you been to the park recently? I mean, wow. The machete incident you refer to occurred on the southside, which is quite a ways from the park. It was also an isolated incident. If it were the norm, then you'd maybe have a point.

nyc10022: "I believe jcondos sold out at pretty much the $1200 or so range. Friends looked at a high floor in the $1500s. Hell, 70 Washington was rolling at over $1k psf."

Wouldn't 70 Washington be more expensive than J condos? J condos is on the border of Vinegar Hill and 70 Washington is in the heart of DUMBO,,

I am a newbie to DUMBO so forgive me if I am overlooking something

nyc10022, you're right I don't spend a lot of time in DUMBO. Your view is certainly more current than mine. That said, the York St. stop isn't really in the heart of the neighborhood, so what's said about the stop and what applies to the overall neighborhood are two different things. I'd say the closer you get to the Manhattan Bridge (and past it), the sketchier the neighborhood gets. I think most people would agree.

And just for the record, chief, the A is up a hill from DUMBO. That's the "Heights" part of Brooklyn Heights. It's not a big hill, it's not a mountain, but it's uphill.

You really gotta jump all over everything don't you?

nyc10022: "I think Red Hook shows how NOT to do it. There was so much potential, and so much of it was botched."

Start it. Start the thread. You know you want to.

And while I am so not defending my mention of 1BBP, it's important to point out that J Condo went on the market in early 2006 and began closings in 2007. Really different market timing from One Brooklyn Bridge.

Okay, it's not important. But I'm pointing it out anyway.

"nyc10022, you're right I don't spend a lot of time in DUMBO. Your view is certainly more current than mine. That said, the York St. stop isn't really in the heart of the neighborhood, so what's said about the stop and what applies to the overall neighborhood are two different things. I'd say the closer you get to the Manhattan Bridge (and past it), the sketchier the neighborhood gets. I think most people would agree."

Main drags I believe are Jay St. and Front Street. Jcondos is Jay and front/york (hits both sides).
Train is York, one block from where those places intersect.

So not quite sure what you mean about different parts of neighborhoods. You're talking hundreds of feet.

"And just for the record, chief, the A is up a hill from DUMBO. That's the "Heights" part of Brooklyn Heights. It's not a big hill, it's not a mountain, but it's uphill. "

A has two entrances. One is on Cadman West. aka Fulton Street. Leading right to Ferry Dock, as in "Fulton's Ferry" as in the name of the original neighborhood now called DUMBO. Saying its in the heights is not quite accurate, at minimum, it is smack on the border of where the heights ends (and something else begins... if its not DUMBO, what is it?)

That A station then continues to Cadman EAST and past it, to Brooklyn Bridge Boulevard. They need an entrance in the middle, yes, but thats DEFINITELY not brooklyn heights anymore. You are basically talking right of Cadman East, which IS Washington Street... which ends up smack in the middle of DUMBO. Yes, its on the other size of the bqe (so I wouldn't personally call it DUMBO), but you are basically in spitting distance of 70 washington.

And, having walked it... there is no hill.

No "heights" because it isn't Brooklyn Heights.

I agree the BH has Heights, but the hill then becomes when the Jehova's are in the Columbia Street area.

The A is simply not up that hill.

"nyc10022: "I believe jcondos sold out at pretty much the $1200 or so range. Friends looked at a high floor in the $1500s. Hell, 70 Washington was rolling at over $1k psf."

Wouldn't 70 Washington be more expensive than J condos? J condos is on the border of Vinegar Hill and 70 Washington is in the heart of DUMBO,,

I am a newbie to DUMBO so forgive me if I am overlooking something"

Change, no worries... all good questions. Your logic is actually good here, I think there are just some details to add. I agree with you in theory..... but 70 washington had some problems. It had the cool building thing going for it, but it didn't go so well. I actually went with someone to look at apartments there early in the process (more later).

Here are some challenges with 70 Washington.

1) Location - its on the "better" half of DUMBO, yes, but its also sort of the worst part of that better half. Wedged directly in the armpit of bqe and the bridge. No views.
2) Not great apartments. I was in there when it was selling. DUMBO to that point had been mostly conversions or old spaces, and they were all relatively large. 70 Washington seems to have been the first "small apartment" building in there. These were almost Manhattan proportions... when the rest of DUMBO had better and cooler apartments
3) No views. Most of the apartments don't clear the buildings across the street. Maybe 1-2 floors can see any water whatsoever, and its not a lot of it. One side of the building looks directly to bridge, but can't see water (in my head, its almost the worst case scenario - noise but no real view) and that will get blocked by Dock Street!
4) A lot of negative talk on the boards. I think being the first "dumbo is hot" building, it got some mixed coverage.
5) BIG. One of the bigger cool old buldings (the others like it are still commercial, most of the other conversions are smaller buildings)
6) Prewar not really. The details did not make it. Fairly cookie cutter. Yes, some pillars and stuff, but they were steel so they get covered up. Ceilings high, but not THAT high. So, doesn't have THAT much prewar sell.

Jcondos looks like ass, yes, but its a modern high rise with crazy views, and it seems decent amenities.

Also, its closer to Vinegar Hill, but looking at the map, I don't think you can call it anything other than DUMBO. Its on the "right" side of Jay Street (train is York and Jay). Not sure where the technical line is, but its definitely can't be anything before Jay Yes, closer to VH and projects, but still a bit away, and across from the F train, so a pretty big selling point.

In terms of "heart" of DUMBO, figure the main "strip" is probably front street, running from Main to Jay(which is another strip in itself). Jcondo is ON front because its the entire block. I think that gets jcondo pretty close to the center. Not sure 100%, but I don't think we're talking about a huge difference here.

I don't know for sure but I think amenities and layouts were better.

You can complain about noise on both, but supposedly jcondo did mega windows.

So, thats why I think you saw the price differences.

BTW... the friends who looked at both... they bought in Cobble Hill, mainly because what they wanted in jcondo was over a million and he had just started his banking job and wasn't sure.

Good call. ;-)

changedropper, you still there?

NYC10022 - wy do you get into so many fights?

Still here nyc10022--thanks for your insights. 84 Front and 65 Washington seem like a better buildings than 70 Washington. If a rental listing at JCondos came up, I'd look at that too but so far nothing in my price range. Yeah, my biggest problem with DUMBO is that's it's LOUD. I am a light sleeper so I am having some second thoughts. I am looking at a place on Water that is near the park which seems a little quieter than others. We'll see. I might just rent in Cobble Hill again.

I like Cobble Hill... maybe my favorite Brooklyn neighborhood.

yeah but the dreaded F train...with no other lines nearby

unless you're closer to Atlantic... then you get the whole borough hall scene.

IMO borough hall is walkable for commuters living as far south as president street.

Walkable, but not in a way that saves time over just taking the closer F....

If you're living in 30 Main, 70 Wash etc., you're pretty much equidistant from the A and the F.

And not too far from the 2/3 at Clark Street.

The F reference was about cobble hill...